Did I Unluckily Get Two Broken Scenarios In A Row Or Am I Messing Up Something With Tvm Signaling?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Easy301, Oct 5, 2022.

  1. Easy301

    Easy301 Active Member

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    Hi ladies and gents,

    I've failed two scenarios in a row for SPAD events while driving two separate scenarios on two separate routes- SEHS and TGV.

    I've ran numerous scenarios in the past using the full suit of safety systems on both routes and have never had this issue.

    What usually happens: as TVM slows me down for a station stop it turns off around 170 km/h, I'll maintain the break curve or apply a bit more breaking as I come out of TVM signaling and approach the station and this usually works perfectly.

    What's happened today on two separate routes: As I'm approaching the station and TVM is taking me down to the 170 km/h mark, the 170 on the TVM display continues to blink indicating the speed is going to drop further, the TVM display will then drop from 170 to 000 and set the next expected limit on the speedometer to 0, demanding a full stop with almost zero notice.

    This causes me to have a SPAD event as I don't think I'd be able to hit that restriction and stop in time even in an emergency.

    Here's two sub 1 minute videos of both events as they happen. The videos start approaching 170km/h or having just gone under that speed maintaining a break curve to make the station stop.





    Is this my fault? Should I just be immediately applying max breaking when I see the 000 speed restriction on the TVM display and pray I stop in time? Isn't TVM supposed to slow me down to a point where I can safety and adequately stop for a danger aspect signal without having to throw the train in emergency?

    Again, usually I just maintain the breaking curve coming out of TVM and everything is fine, I've never had TVM want me to go from 170 to 0 in such a short amount of time so I'm not sure how to properly handle this situation or if it's a bug.

    Is this a case of me just not reacting properly to the TVM display immediately when I see the 000 on the display or is something not working correctly?


    Thank you.
     
  2. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that shouldn’t happen, I’ve been caught out on LGV with the same bug. It doesn’t count you down properly to the ‘red signal’ flags at stations. I always make sure I’m going much slower when approaching a station so this doesn’t happen too often.
     
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  3. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Well-Known Member

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    You brake way too late, in both cases, operator error at its finest. ;)
    If you are familiar with TVM, the bar around the speedometer will never turn yellow, click here, this will help you.
     
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  4. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Both times you're _way_ too early, which is why you're SPADing coming in to the station - the previous train hasn't left the block yet. The first video you're also letting off the brake as you pass 170 when in reality you should have kept going (as the flashing 170 indicates the next block is lower again). The fact that the TVM isn't recognising the 100km/h limit on the branch in to the platform is interesting though
     
  5. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Well-Known Member

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    In some cases it is possible that TVM displays 000 immediately after flashing 170. This always happens when you are too close to the train ahead and the signal behind the train is red to protect it. In this case you have to react quickly because there are not enough blocks left to display a flashing 100. Click my link and you will understand.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022
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  6. Easy301

    Easy301 Active Member

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    Thank you for this.

    Iirc the tutorial seemed to indicate you're to break when the TVM speed limit starts to flash, and if the new speed restriction is also flashing you continue to break.

    From everything I've seen and read the yellow indicates you need to start breaking asap with the speedometer turning red to indicate you need to apply more breaking immediately to hit the restriction by the next block.

    Infact, almost every tutorial I've watched be it from DTG themselves or other members of the community the operation always seemed to be: Once yellow, apply a breaking curve that comfortably meets the speed restriction by the next block.

    I'm absolutely not saying you're incorrect, quite the contrary. I'm still learning about this system and if I've been doing it wrong this entire time I absolutely want to correct it and do it the right way.

    It'll be a change in muscle memory but I'll start breaking as soon as I get the flashing indication instead of waiting for the yellow. Usually I wait for the yellow on the speedometer, hit the next restriction- rinse and repeat and this WAS working perfectly up until today.

    I'm guessing this is the first time I've got a red signal coming out of TVM which is why the method I was using has never been a problem before.

    I'll give the post you linked a read through a couple of times.

    One other note: on the high-speed signaling TVM tutorial it indicates when a current speed limit in green flashes indicating that the speed limit is going to be reduced that you are to do nothing at this time, and that only when the new speed limit displays on yellow in the display are you supposed to start breaking.

    The yellow speed limit coming up on the TVM display is what causes the HUD speedometer to turn yellow I believe so this make it seem like it would be impossible to follow the instructions as they're presented in the tutorial for TVM without allowing the speedometer to turn yellow.

    You can see this in this 30 second clip from the tutorial:

    https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxH80beh7C6IBfxErXyGzKqCIrDqxsKhvw

    It's disappointing that I was doing it wrong this whole time, I think how the tutorial presents it and the way it seems to integrate with the HUD confused me. According to the tutorial I can't follow the TVM display correctly without the speedometer going yellow.

    I'll adjust my operation accordingly going forward and see if that solves the issue.

    Thank you again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022
  7. Easy301

    Easy301 Active Member

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    I did notice afterwards that because the TVM speed restriction continue to flash that I could have kept and should have kept breaking.

    Trains don't over run signals for being early though, of course. Did TVM and TSW in general handle the upcoming red signal properly and I just messed it up? Or was something else going on?

    I guess my issue is that even if I kept on breaking at full breaking force and never let up off the breaking curve it still feels like I would never have made that red signal in time, but maybe I would have?

    I guess I'm just really intent on finding out what I did wrong so I can correct it going forward.

    If it's a matter of just me needing to break sooner and keeping the brake curve throughout the reduction since the speed limit is yellow and flashing on the TVM display then that's easy to fix, I just don't know if I also did something else wrong or if the game was supposed to give me more advanced warning and didn't etc.

    I don't know how to be any later really as I'm following the timetable and speed limits nearly exactly as intended. I'm not speeding or leaving any stations early.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022
  8. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if it's prototypical or not, but after one SPAD myself from TVM dropping to zero from 170, I always continue breaking whenever the target speed is met but keeps flashing. I tried to do some research on TVM to see what was happening; although I couldn't really find anything on a flashing target speed, I did read that going to zero from 170 is not outside of the "rules" of TVM. I agree with others that this always seems to happen when a train is still occupying your platform; it has happened to me upon approach to Stratford as well except that it was a lower target speed, 100 I think, but it was still flashing even when met.

    Now there is a whole training session devoted to TVM, and yet no mention of these speed drops. I don't understand if TVM was working as intended why it wouldn't slow you down more gradually.
     
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  9. Easy301

    Easy301 Active Member

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    The tutorial actually answers your first question and you're correct, if the speed restriction is in yellow and flashing when you reach that speed you're supposed to continue your breaking curve, so you're absolutely correct about that.

    If the target speed is met but keeps flashing it means the speeds going to continue to lower and for my understanding again it's prototypical to just keep on breaking.

    And right that's my issue too, is that I feel like even if I didn't stop breaking and kept gradually breaking the whole time that it's still such a sudden stop from 170 to 0 in the amount of time they expect me to do it.
     
  10. NateDogg7a

    NateDogg7a Well-Known Member

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    I just read this after I posted. It certainly helps me to understand TVM better, so thank you. This could probably be explained a little better in the tutorial as well.
     
  11. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Well-Known Member

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    The yellow braking curve may be correct, but I got out of the habit shortly after LGV release because you catch up with the train ahead much too quickly. As soon as something flashes, I brake down to the next lower step, if it continues to flash, I continue to brake. In the cases of SEHS 5J49 and 5T75 a flashing 170 was displayed, then immediately 000 is displayed because another Javelin is in the station. If you brake in time you only drive 130 when the 000 is displayed and have more than enough time to brake further and stop very easily. I did basically nothing else but learn the TVM steps and leave out the braking curve completely, you can keep the timetables comfortably and you are always on the safe side in dicey situations.
     
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  12. Easy301

    Easy301 Active Member

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    Thank you, I'm grateful and appreciative of all your help with this. I'll just accordingly breaking a little earlier and continuing to break throughout the reduction and see if that helps.

    It's encouraging to know you were down to 130 and still had plenty of time to stop comfortably and safely.
     
  13. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Well-Known Member

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    Small tip, try the LGV scenario "Bad Things" and then let me know how you liked the TVM behavior.
     
  14. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    No, but it is well known in TSW that if you start getting significantly out of sync with the planned timetable (either early or late) then you run the risk of signals malfunctioning or trains being stuck due to the dispatcher having a fit and the scripting falling over.

    In this case, you were flying in to Stratford ~4 minutes early and there was a train still at the platform, which meant the signal leading in to the platform was red (causing the SPAD) but it appeared that TVM was slowing you down as if you were going to stop at the normal spot on the platform instead, thus the disparity. I also find it strange that it didn't drop you down to 100 for the crossover (of which the game was well aware of in advance as evidenced by the HUD countdown).

    I'll give it a run tonight and see what happens with the TVM scripting if you're on time, and then try and replicate being early too.
     
  15. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022
  16. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    Just did a run of 1J15, even with only a modest attempt to stay or around 220kph you still arrive at Stratford several minutes early, at which point 1F15 is still at the platform - you are meant to arrive at 8:34 but 1F15 doesn't leave until 8:31 and you can easily get there by 8:30 (the AI gets there at 8:33). As for TVM not dropping you to 100 for the crossover, I'm guessing it is because it is seeing a 000 stop signal in the same block so just drops you straight from 170 to 0.
     
  17. Perks390

    Perks390 Well-Known Member

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    Is there a minimum distance between the block boards? 170 to 0 might be possible if you've got 1KM between blocks but for less than that you'd be struggling? I had a similar issue at Ashford where I couldn't stop in time from 160 to 0 within a very short braking distance.
     
  18. Hiro Protagonist

    Hiro Protagonist Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Voie-Machine
    "The line is divided into signal block sections of about 1,500 metres (~1 mi), the boundaries of which are indicated by blue square signs printed with a yellow-on-white triangle."
     
  19. Perks390

    Perks390 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure the sections on HS1 are less than 1500 metres? Especially, on the approach to Stratford and Ashford.
     
  20. Easy301

    Easy301 Active Member

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    Thanks for taking the time to run through this and provide a bit of feedback and analysis, it clears up a few of the questions and confusion I had.

    I was initially confused on how I was so early as I wasn't doing anything outside of operational procedures such as speeding or leaving stations early. It sounds like just the way the scenario and times are set up that you're often going to get have to hold at a red signal on this service when approaching Stanford having driven the route appropriately.

    I guess the issue comes down to the fact that I need to and should be continuing to break when reaching the indicated TVM target speed if it's blinking yellow.

    It looks like you're indeed supposed to wait until the speedometer shows yellow before breaking as this correspondes to a yellow flashing speed restriction on the TVM.

    In previous scenarios after 170 TVM would drop off and I'd continue to slow and reach the station comfortably and correctly.

    The crux of the issue here seems to be that I failed in both scenarios to notice the 170 km/s restriction was flashing indicating (unlike it normally does) that the speed was going to drop lower and I should have continued breaking and would have been stopped before the red just fine.

    Just to confirm, in your tests your waited to break until the flashing speed restriction in yellow came up on the display and not when the initial green speed you were at started to flash is that right?

    I'm asking as I'm trying to determine if following the TVM break procedure according to the tutorial (not breaking until the yellow speed restrictions comes up) still allows me to stop comfortably before the red or if I should be doing things in a non prototypical manner and slowing down as soon as the green speed on the TVM starts flashing.

    I'm very appreciative for your help and all the time you've taken to explore this issue further for us. Thank you.
     
  21. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    It's not impossible for TVM to go from 170 to 000 in a single block but there is no way that would happen in real life with only 600m distance to the 'red' signal per your second video. Regardless of how conservative drivers in the real world operate the trains, the SYSTEM is designed to allow trains to safely decelerate from the displayed speed. Actually, the system is designed to allow trains to safely stop in time even if the trains are going ~15 km/h over the displayed speed.

    Cheers
     
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