Diesel Legends - Identity Crisis Of Marketing

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Monder, Mar 5, 2021.

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  1. Yes, that's reasonable

    68 vote(s)
    53.1%
  2. I am buying it as it is for full price

    18 vote(s)
    14.1%
  3. No, still too expensive

    29 vote(s)
    22.7%
  4. No, you're asking for too much of a discount

    13 vote(s)
    10.2%
  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    So I wanted to make a post focused solely on the pricing and targeting aspect of the Diesel Legends DLC.

    (For the record after it being explained on the stream I get WHY it exist - making an unused team do something. Below I take the DLC as it is.)

    Sam has mentioned this pack being more focused on the new players who don't have all the BR Blue rolling stock... OK. ₤15 for 2 locos, a DMU and a timetable... OK. Put it this way and it sounds somewhat... well... OK. But it gets way worse when you go into the depths below.

    As it's been mentioned, the DLC is not mainly about the rolling stock, but "about the scenarios/timetable"... BUT to unlock the whole timetable you need BR Heavy Freight Pack AND Class 31. We also know these cannot activate the respective layers without their native route... so for the full timetable, you need two extra routes (NTP, TVL) and two extra loco packs. These then, however, provide Class 08 and both versions of Class 101. Does this still sound like a DLC for those with no BR Blue rolling stock??? You can't unlock its full potential without 2/3 of the DLC already in your inventory. The whole purpose is thrown out of the window.

    So the DLC isn't exactly made for new players. And we know what long time players usually get. Most of us have all of the trains involved (granted, the 52 isn't blue...), some of them multiple times! And for the blue 52 and timetable... you still have to pay ₤15. This DLC feels like a weird botched thing made to not satisfy anyone. And if it's supposed to give an idea of how popular these can be... DTG is going to get a really skewed impression. The idea is good, but it has a serious identity crisis. Please, don't ditch the idea of new timetables with different rolling stock, just do it properly.

    So what could be done to save this mess?
    1) Have discounts for long time players. If you own 101/08, you get -₤3 off the price, if you own 52, you get -₤2 (you have a red one, not a blue one). If you have all of these, you'd get a timetable pack and a new skin for 52 for ₤7... I'd say that's a reasonable price.
    2) Throw all services in - if you don't want to reduce the price, make the DLC complete. You've put yourself into a position, where you need to own the extra DLCs to get everything out of this one. So add Class 31 and let's say Class 40 into the mix and have all layers activated just by the DLC itself. The rest can still substitute, but for the price, you'd get a hefty supply of rolling stock and new players would actually get the full potential of a DLC aimed for them.

    The last thing I'd like to tag is the overall mindset with this. I have mentioned in a stream that it's weird aiming a DLC at only a certain group of people. Granted not everything will be attractive for everyone, but going the way "This is made for people, who don't have the rolling stock (not really though), not the rest" is weird. It's like with bad movies, the argument being "it was simply not made for you". You're splitting the fanbase, shouldn't you try to satisfy everyone? You now have people owning tons of DLCs with content in this one being like "Hey, I gave you ₤50 for 101 twice, ₤12 for extra 08 in Heavy Freight Pack, ₤12 for red 52. Can I get the timetable and the reskin for ₤7? No? Ok. So you don't want money?" Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I've done work as a business and can either get X amount of money or X+Y and make a healthier player base... I'm not deciding for too long.

    Sam said I should vote with my wallet. Well here is my vote - I have bought all of these (ok, not Class 31 yet), I offer ₤7 and the potential of buying Class 31. The choice is yours, DTG. Extra money or no money?
     
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  2. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Id have put it around £9.99. Im intrigued by the locos shuttling in and out of Paddington, but Im unsure how long I would play it for. Could really enjoy the services or get bored after the 1st day. It feels more akin to a mod that someone may have made for an alternative experience.
     
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  3. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think my concern with this in the way that I play is I buy a route, too many perhaps and when I look at my progress I’m about 100hrs of gameplay and I think the most I’ve done on one set is about 6 services .

    This then makes me think if you’re offering a “content” pack where it’s old locos in modern times then why not add 20 services per Uk pack for example if you’re already throwing some accuracy out the window by running it on a current route. I guess the way the locos are spread though already cover some of that.

    I watched the stream tonight and had Matt not been spinning the camera round and engaging with Sam there’s bugger all to do other than punch “Q” occasionally. It’s a flat out run , I’m sure there’s variety in services but to also share the locos as they have into sehs and the other packs may give more incentive to buy.

    I might be missing something but I found DTG Protagonist more entertaining than the product, I’d rather donate £11 for him to take himself out for a beer in June for helping me get through lockdown with his streams than buy this one I think.

    To me personally and I’m only one person it’d be one loco I didn’t have ,I’d need to buy a route I lost when changing from Xbox to pc which I’d likely only do a handful of runs on.

    sorry dtg
     
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  4. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I was very surprised (shocked?) at the price but I can see the appeal if you haven't any of the locos. For those of us that have I expected it to be around £7
     
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  5. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    This is an interesting point. If the sole reason for regurgitated locos is put idle employees to use, then surely a better proposal would be to put said employees to doing something like learning skills they are deficient in. That way in the future they can be useful elsewhere when there primary skill is redundant.

    They could be working on route extensions, or being tasked with identifying bugs, admittedly they may be slower at the task than a skilled person, but any progress made is better than no progress. Ultimately they will become more proficient in new skills and become quicker.

    Don't gent me wrong, an artist may not be suited to coding and vice versa, but no one is single skilled, especially to the point they are twiddling their thumbs when the building is burning down around them.
     
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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I would interpret this differently: The additional services for TVL/HFP locos are there to entice the other group of customers, the ones who already have the vintage UK stuff.

    Having said that, I agree with your discount idea, because 17 quid is too much for just a timetable pack. But I wouldn't go as low as 7; 10 seems about right.
     
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  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    .... artists could have been put to work designing proper fences for SEHS. :cool:
     
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  8. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Interesting point. Maybe it could've been interesting if "idling" teams were, for example, given to Adam. I have no skill in game developing, but even I could at least go through the list of bugs and test and test and test, write down when/if it happened etc. Be just a workforce for the preservation crew. Granted... this does not directly generate revenue... but it would definitely help as well.
     
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  9. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    :D Ha, I've not been lurking on these forums for long, but not even that one is lost on me...

    It's not so much games development that is the key, more the fact about how you manage your resources. Yes, it's not nice to refer to human beings as resources (simply robots that do), but where business and profits are concerned employees are negative numbers on the balance sheet. Idle employees are essentially a double negative. And if I'm being honest, anyone worth their salt wouldn't sit idlily by while they watched their colleagues sweat, even if that meant just fetching cups of tea...
    I'm not entirely convinced this DLC was to busy idle hands, otherwise you'd churn out a class 52 in blue, then red, then green, then...
     
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  10. aidanhughes1

    aidanhughes1 New Member

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    While I agree with the sentiment of those of us who already own the rolling stock should get a discount, I don't agree with your talk about the layers. The way it's working with this is the same way it works with every route. Take Munich - Augsburg for example. That comes with the Ice 3 and the BR423. It also has layers for the BR182 and the BR155. For each of those locos, you need to own the route that they were originally made for for them to show up in timetable mode. I don't particularly agree with that, I think if you own the loco you should be able to use it's particular layer in timetable mode regardless of if you own the route it was made for, but that's just how it's always been with TSW. They aren't changing anything about their business practices with this new pack.

    When it comes to pricing, I think that £9.99 is more than fair for the timetable alone. Take into account the price of the average scenario pack, and think about the sheer number of services and operations you're getting with this, even if you don't have the additional layers. If they were to stick with the original full price, £5 for 2 locos and an MU is a bargain.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's not a question of business practices, but the way TSW is built: every loco has to have a "home," they can't exist independent of a route. In some streams there have been vague hints that DTG might look to change that in the indefinite future, but it would require a major core program rebuild.
     
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  12. (1)Ben

    (1)Ben New Member

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    I feel that even £7 is too much for just a timetable, if the scenario planner was actually fleshed out we could achieve the same for free.

    If the pack was more immersive in regards to scenery I would potentially pick it up. The sight of the overhead lines in the stream just made me feel uneasy.
     
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  13. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    £7 for new timetable, new scenarios and one new reskin is fair I think. The real issue then is how to do different prices for people depending on what they already have? And that is difficult.

    If you buy bundles on steam it will warn you that you do not get the things you already own, but this doesn't apply to individual items in these packs. They would have to make multiple versions and couldn't possibly cover all of the combinations given they have about 5 DLCs covered.

    As I said elsewhere the whole concept needs to be properly rethought rather than try and do this because one department had a bit of a lull. There are indeed possibilities for "gameplay" packs especially with the 24 hour timetable being unique to TSW. However, if you are doing that don't bother putting in a) trains people already own and asking them to pay for them, or b) claiming it is aimed at newer players when it requires at least 5 DLCs plus the base game in order to get it fully operational.

    The gameplay pack should only contain scenarios and the new timetable and should be priced accordingly. It should be aimed at players who already own these items, not charge them for them again, incentivise players who buy it to buy the other DLCs to get it fully working and just be a net addition to everyone's collection at a fair price.
     
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  14. ralphy_porter2000

    ralphy_porter2000 Active Member

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    I must admit after tonight's stream I am warming to it but for the price to make sense with the concept then you need to have the class 43 and class 20 in Blue. Ok we have all mentioned no new locos for those of us that have invested, but at least use ALL of them we have got if you want to make it more attractive. I will give it a punt for £7, would even payed 'full tickle' with the 20 and 43 included and Im not even the biggest 43 fan of driving to be fair, but it and the 20 -I love- are missing and love em or loath them the variety is what makes the immersion for that period.
    I didnt get the concept at first, but now I do Im like DTG :o Soooooo close guys, put it back a month and make it complete £15 no problem.
    You have put something together that is actualy quite good, but even as a first go at this can you not re-gig it so your using the bits you have left over?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
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  15. hibiki

    hibiki Active Member

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    I watched the stream last night, so this is what I think.

    The one thing that I am disappointed with is the fact the 101s are not in full BR Blue. Matt saying that all the information he and the group had showed not many 101s where in full BR Blue. Maybe if Matt could take just a couple of mins to look at this page, this will help him see.

    https://railcar.co.uk/type/class-101/liveries

    This will help with more understanding about why there is so much noise about it. It is true some blue/grey units did appear in the early 1970s but, There was another livery before the majority of the units where painted into b/g. These where the refurbished sets and being white with a blue band. So there is a couple of variations that could of been done. I know that Matt also said that we could use the livery editor to change them. I just think that the other liveries could of been either used instead, or incorperated into the game.

    Finally with the 101, of course it isn't the real unit for GWE. This of course should of been a 117, but if it a case of it would cost too much time and delay this timetable pack, I can sympathise. After all if there is a bit of time on the hands of developers, you don't want them sat around doing nothing. Especially when we are still in a lockdown in this country.

    I do like the idea of the timetable itself, and maybe because of my age, or just me being me, the fact of them running old timetables on modern lines doesn't actually bother me. I think it is because of the old train sims I used to play. To me it is the train itself I am interested in. Saying that. I don't think using new trains on old routes would work the same. I also think that the shunting and the the turning trains round would be good fun, but personally as for the Class 52, I have very little intrest in the loco but that is because AFAIK they never operated around the North West England.

    The price to me is a little high. Like others I would of though £9.99, although I think £11,99 wouldn't be too bad. Although I can say that, I don't know how much time and money it costs to actually do this and where modders do them for free. I don't think anybody who works for DTG or really any other business would want to work for free. I know I wouldn't. So maybe that's the reason for the price.

    I will most likely will get it but it could be when there is a discount on it.
     
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  16. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I don't understand this at all. DTG always says they are not making route extensions because it is targeted only for certain player group that already owns the route. And they go on and do this that is exactly that. I guess it is not as involved as creating a new map, but still. I would rather pay this money if they electrify GWE route and give us some electric locos. I am not sure what this is, but I am sure ain't buying it.
     
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  17. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    As much as some people don’t like the idea of paying full price because they already have the trains, there is an idea in the main post here to throw in more locos, which I object to. I don’t like the idea of people getting five or six locos in this pack that I’ve had to spend a lot of money on previously to get. The extra layers are there for people who have bought other content to add value both to this DLC and their previous purchases. It builds in exactly the same way as the German content. I think people who don’t own the Class 31 or Heavy Freight will still get enough value from this in the same way people get value out of Peninsula Corridor after buying the Baby Bullet (no new services) but not the MP15 (to complete all the timetable).

    It is a bit of a mess though, with so many different dependencies and the obvious duplications. It’ll certainly be the most confusing DLC for a newcomer to get their head around. I’m fairly sure the intentions were good though and only the way TSW was set up is causing the issue. It should show DTG that the route/loco dependency needs a rethink. What they have put in this pack is good, it’s the legacy of the decision to host locos in routes (which also has other drawbacks) that is making it difficult.

    I’m very happy to buy it (even at full price) as it adds value to several things I have already bought. I get new uses for several DLC that previously only had minimal uses (in number). NTP locos will have extra value The Heavy Freight pack will have extra value. The Class 31 will have extra value. That’s on top of the extra use of GWE with the new timetable the pack brings. The 101, 52 and 08 I already have too, and they are obviously the main focus in the new timetable. I like the look of the whole package, for me of course, not for everyone.
     
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  18. heardturkey

    heardturkey Active Member

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    If I could have bought it last night, I would have. Next Thursday my card will be out.

    I already have NTP, TVL, West Somerset and all of the loco add ons so no extra cost.

    Whether it is value for money comes down to what you want from the pack. From Matt, all of the pack is livery creator ready so the 101 can be re-created in blue, the 52s will be able to be re skinned with the small yellow warning panel ( and there will probably be green and golden sand versions created just for the fun of it) and the 08 maybe EWS to add a bit to the 'modern' GWE.
    I know that eventually all of the locos will be livery editor ready by the preservation team but that will just allow me even more options.

    The number of services was a plus and my only slight disappointment was that the Mk1s (apart from the BG) aren't include so i'll still need to use the scenario planner to use them.

    For those screaming the usual complaints: lazy, no new locos, wrong route etc,etc: you don't have to buy the pack. It doesn't take anything away. TSW won't do a 'mission impossible' and get vapourised from your hard drive.
     
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  19. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I 100% agree with this. If everyone works only in their specific roles, then efficiency will be bad. I also work in programming and in my team everyone can do anything, basically. When we write our applications, everyone has their own projects, and you do your own interface, your own code and your own design. You don't have to wait for someone else to finish to finish their part, you can work freely on your own. And we never understood programming teams where they have specific roles. Seems like a much worse way of working.

    Obviously we're just a team of 5, it might be easier to manage things this way on a bigger team and full game development is also more difficult than what we do. But this still seems like a wasteful way of working.

    Like I remember one time there was something about not having a free UI artist to do some really basic thing, like giving a keyboard mapping for door openings or having the center dot disappear after a while. Such small things could be done by anyone in their free time, I think.
     
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  20. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I unfortunately was driving on a real railway this morning during the stream so couldn't ask my usual question... since they have obviously updated these locos because they now work in Livery Designer - have they also added Raildriver controls? For me because I have Raildriver this would make the pack worthwhile. I did hear about 44minutes in on my late play tonight that Matt didn't know if the Raildriver was supported and would let us know.

    Paul
     
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  21. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    There was a comment earlier about using devs on improving older routes with Adam’s teams. The thing to remember here these teams need to be paid. Improving routes is costly, new content is money. It’s probably that simple.
     
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  22. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong... but these layers are enabled by MSB, aren't they? These locos only substitute, so you need just the route itself.
     
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  23. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That is correct. As far as I know, the class 31 layer for diesel legends is the first time a loco dlc adds a layer to a different route (or alternate timetable for a route if you want to be precise).
     
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  24. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    West Somerset and the German routes are some others I can think of.
     
  25. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree, but by that logic the 101 & 08 should not be included either, if you are going to include those two engines I question why not do the same for the 31 & NTP engines? If they can substitute them into services they clearly don't need a ton of work and could be included with little problem. If they want this to be a starting point then having content for TVL & NTP doesn't encourage that. You could get either NTP or TVL on sale for a bit less than what this pack will cost, and you get not only a comparable amount of locos and services but a period correct route as well, I just don't see this being that appealing to new players.
     
  26. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Hmm... I do like the concept of such a timetable pack. Just not sure I'm interested in this particular one. Things going through my head at this point;

    - GWR isn't my favourite route, I find it a pretty boring landscape
    - They could've added some Railtour services to the original timetable
    - It's not the first time they've promised to add more services later on, and not living up to that promise.

    So I guess I'll wait and see how this turns out. Won't buy it at full price for sure. Not sure if a sale discount can convince me to pick it up. But do like the concept. If it were on another route, and they would add all services prior to release, I might actually end up buying it. Also I we'll still get Railtour services on modern routes.
     
  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't find the price a problem. I imagine making the timetable in the first place wasn't a five minute job and for those who purchase it they have a potentially of lot hours of playability so I am not going to criticise the cost.

    For me the problem is the mishmash of stock. Why couldn't they do what they did on NTP and TVL and specify a year and base it on that? They have added layers using the class 45 and 47, by the time they were running with blanked off headcode panels the class 52 fleet was probably down to single figures if not actually all withdrawn.
     
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  28. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    DTG is charging this pAcK by literally using the scenario planner and livery designer ahahaha. They really are in the need for more money. I hope that the this turns out to be the worst release ever, so they can learn. There are many ways of improve the gameplay by not charging a pack full of reusing locos. You can improve the scenarios, making them challenging by ading temporary speed limits, workers on the line, just add something on the scenarios that we wouldn't expect in timetable, because the scenarios are to easy and arcade and all feel the same. Spend the developing time by adding more to the trains that we already have, give us more interation and new features. I could be here all day, but i have a life. So my point is, don't come with this stupied strategy of making money by reusing locos, because there are a lot of ways you can improve the gameplay, for free.
     
  29. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    The timetable would be worth more if done well, but all the visible 'go via' instructions and the misplaced stop markers at stations to me would say this was done very quickly with less care than usual.

    I believe the first 45 to get the headcode plated over was 45071 after collision damage repair in 1975, with others following mostly at refurbishments which weren't completed across the fleet until '83 or so. The BR-allox 45s were mostly used on cross-country services, and weren't hugely regular visitors to Paddington. The use of the 47 is also something of an anachronism, the majority of 47s allocated to OC by 1975 were still steam-heat, with only a couple of ETH-fitted examples.

    While both of the loco choices mentioned are slightly strange for the period, they still pale in comparison to the use of 101s on local services and full Mk2 rakes (some even without brake vehicles) behind non-ETH locos, and if all 74 Westerns are included, vac-only locos. I understand that the vehicle team weren't available, but they're the two things that turn me off this DLC the most.
     
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  30. thatleedsguy#8590

    thatleedsguy#8590 Active Member

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    It may have made more sense to offer the 52, 101 and 08 as individual purchases. That way, players can choose what they want based on what they already own. As for what to price them at...let's say £5 each for the sake of simplicity.

    Let's use a couple of examples-
    -Person A owns none of the locos and thus will pay a total of £15. Everything to Person A is new because they don't already have the 52, 101 and 08.

    -Person B owns one or two of the locos and will only have to pay for the one(s) they haven't got. They'll get to drive the new loco and the old ones with the proper timetable on GWE. They pay either £5 or £10 and they're happy because they didn't have to pay for something they already have and they get new content for what they bought already. This way, they can buy it in stages if they feel they want more.

    -Person C owns the 101, 08 and 52 and just needs the blue livery for the 52. They pay £5 and for that, they unlock all the functionality for the 08 and 101. They're just paying for a skin and a timetable, but it should suit them since they get to enjoy what they've got already and not have to pay for things they've bought before.

    - Person D owns every loco this pack offers a new service for and only has to get the 52 in blue.

    (EDIT: Every download would include the timetable layers that are activated as and when you get the required locos, for clarification)

    Essentially, put them up as DLC locomotives. DTG gets money and players get what they want at a price and pace that suits them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
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  31. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes that's correct. I don't know if some of the Western got air brakes but even fi so, the majority were vacuum only. They should have chosen a year to model and based it on that in my opinion, 1972 maybe, the last year all the Westerns were in service.

    For me the class 52, the mark 1's from WSR in blue/grey, the 08 numbered in the 3xxx and 4xxx and, if they must,the 101 in all over blue would have been enough to attract me, just and to be honest I would rather it without the extra layers but I know it isn't aimed at me.

    I am not sure I would even purchase the class 117 if they did model it as I don't know if it still fit in!

    The pack looks more like a 80's pack with a class 52 interloper, there is far more 80's in the pack than the 70's.

    A bit more care and research in my opinion and you would have had more BR enthusiasts on board.
     
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  32. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    All apart from D1017-1020 were dual braked from the first major overhaul, D1066 being the first in 1968 and D1023 being the last in 1973. I think DTG could really do with understanding that a great portion of the community is willing to help, and even if that is for basic research I'm sure many would be willing.
     
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  33. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    I also believe Matt said that that having the Heavy Freight Pack would (eventually, wouldn't be a DTG release without being unfinished) give freight services, and then mentioned the TEAs? It's a very quick search to find out that little-to-no oil traffic ran via this portion of the GWML, and certainly none in bogie tankers. Most traffic in tankers on the GWML in the early-to-mid 70s would've been milk still, if the Heavy Freight Pack has to be utilised the better option would just be trains of the 12t vans.
     
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  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I know, I have said exactly the same thing. If this was a modern day pack these mistakes would not have been made.

    I would have gladly helped and as you say so would many others. Lets face it, enthusiasts of anything will always be happy to talk about their favourite subjects!
     
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  35. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    If only, the 465/9 on SEHS is in practically the same position as the 101 in this pack, few if any actually working on the line when the route/timetable is set. At least for the 101 they haven't had to make up fictional services for it to run, although then again Matt didn't confirm the source for the GWB timetable, so it could all be fictional aswell. On that note, I love a class 5 headcode for a light engine move as seen on-stream...
     
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  36. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Ah okay, I had read the class 465 wasn't quite right wasn't sure to what extent.

    I have several working timetables for the Paddington to Reading section from the late 1960's to the early 1990's if DTG wanted to borrow them.
     
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  37. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    I am happy that DTG have introduced multiple timetable functionality, and am fine in principle with these kinds of packs. However, Sam’s rhetoric bothers me a little; « buy this one and we might do some more ». I am surprised that DtG would use a divisive pack such as this as a test bed, given how the community has reacted over historical incompatibility (cl 101). They must know that some people will not buy it for that reason alone, so I hope they will set their own expectations accordingly. I would certainly like to see other routes receive similar packs, but perhaps with a little more care vis-à-vis historical accuracy.
     
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  38. Daniel Christopher

    Daniel Christopher Member

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    I fully agree with the original post. I want the pack as it appeals to me, however, it's way too expensive as I own all rollingstock included.
     
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  39. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    This I agree with. I perfectly understand wanting a team with no current task to do something that creates revenue. But I believe an anachronistic pack is not the best way to test this. If the intention is to make all of these packs (if more do come) anachronistic, then fair enough. That's a good test. But if DTG just want to see if people are interested in pure gameplay packs with no additional rolling stock (apart from repaints), then they're testing two things at the same time, which dilutes the results.
     
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  40. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    I hate to be the the person that argues with the so called master race PC crowd here, but reading this it seems like most of you here have missed the point of this DLC, that point being it's for fun enjoyment, not historical accuracy because I'm pretty sure most of you have run wrong locomotives and stock on other routes you own in off the rails mode, so why the massive spectacle of throwing your toys out of the pram over this pack??
    To me it just looks like people on all forums, console too, just trying to make a mountain because they're bored with their mole hills......
     
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  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I am a bit puzzled at the underlying market analysis. DTG obviously perceive a considerable market for vintage UK rail enthusiasts. Whereas there are precisely zero vintage German or (pending Clinchfield) North American products for TSW- none - over half the British releases are! To date there are three modern (GWE, ECW, SEHS), two vintage (NTP and TVL), three contemporary-with-vintage-rolling-stock (WSR, IOW, Bakerloo*) - and to top it off, before the 465 every single British DLC loco has been vintage.

    So it's unsurprising DTG reckoned there was a market for BR Blue- but did it not register that that same market tend to be obsessive anoraks who want their BR-era stuff done right?

    *Bakerloo was chosen in great part specifically because of its half-century-old trains
     
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  42. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Not correct the BR155 add an additional layer to RSN, the BR182 to RT, but MSB is the first route to actually implement layers. It did so in reverse for RSN as well to allow the use of the BR146
     
  43. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    Frankly there is not even to discuss.
    You want it you take it.
    You don't want it, you don't take it.
    By what right do you tell DTG what to do? !!
    It really becomes anything here, it's always the same as we hear.
    Everyone is free to buy what they want and just because 3 guys are crying doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow them.

    I don't want it and I wouldn't take it and I'm not coming to piss off the whole world for that.
    DTG has the right to sell what the LOVE he wants.

    Besides, I add that if DTG released a well-done scenario pack that I like, I would surely take it and I will still not come and piss off the world with my choice.
     
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  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Not the same thing. The 155 and 182 added timetables to their own, "home" routes, but not to others. The 146 from MSB is available in RSN, but only as a substitution in the existing 143 timetable. Where we first see layering on German routes is in the TSW2 era, with the 422 in SKA and the 146 (or 143!) and freight locos in HMA.
     
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  45. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    While locos technically add layers to their native route, I assumed it was clear that I'm talking about layers on other routes. Neither the Br 155 nor the Br 182 add layers to other routes, they merely substitute in for the MSB freight layers, as solicitr said.

    I would have thought the first (German) layers to be the DoSto layers for RRO? Is that wrong? Also, does the Br 146 sub in on RSN? I was sure it didn't.

    Anyway, not to de-rail this thread, but the reason I brought layers on loco DLC up is the upcoming Br 101. I think we'd all like to see it have layers on other routes than HRR and previously, such a thing has never happened. But the class 31 layer for diesel legends means that loco DLC layers are now a thing. That's why I thought it was a significant point to raise.
     
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  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I haven't touched off the rails and I don't ever intend to. Some people are more than casual gamers, some have very specific periods of interest and this is mine and that is why I am annoyed. I wasn't expecting 100% accuracy but as we get very, very little content which fits in with my main area of interest it would be the sort of add-on I would have been aching for. They could have catered for both casual gamers and enthusiasts.

    If we had a plethora of historic routes I wouldn't even have bothered with this pack, but we don't and the chances are it could be another two or three years before we see another!
     
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  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It is just expressing a opinion. I wouldn't dream of telling DTG what to do, they have to decide what path they take and I wouldn't expect them to listen to me anyway or anyone else for that matter!
     
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  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Amen! ICs are found on most of the German routes currently modeled*, and a white 101 with IC and ex-Interregio coaches ought to be layered into them once it exists.

    *I believe that RSN is the only modeled route where no IC runs, although one or two IC2s do
     
  49. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you've noticed... but I have made the thread specifically without mentioning the route-era disparities. It might be a problem for some, but this is not about it (at least the original post). Even with a modern GWE the route can feel OK when all the BR Blue trains meet, it is busy, which is good. The problem I raised lies with the idea it is for new players, but not really, not for players with many DLCs... but not really.

    Also the "wrong loco on the wrong route" - many people have probably used Off the Rails to:
    -try loco as a joke somewhere
    -put their stock with proper liveries on routes that do not enable them (me - ICE3M in Eurostar livery on LGV) - practically using Off the Rails to get closer to the realism
    (-I personally used Off the Rails once, because MP36 can't be used cab-forward without it... so I used it to flip it correctly)

    But when the developer advertises "70s era experience", it probably should have some of it.
    I do agree with the idea some DLCs might not appeal to all players. I don't have any interest in IoW, though it might not be a bad DLC. That's priorities. That's ok. It's about the attractiveness of the content, not the amount of content. This DLC's philosophy is basically "Oh, you're a big fan of our products? You have most of the DLCs? Cool! Well, this one is not made for you." But why? Does that sound like a good strategy for you? You can always try and bring new customers to the business while keeping the existing base happy, but why would you (forgive me, moderators) stick a big middle finger to the long-time customers? Reminds me strongly of Disney Star Wars effectively alienating original fans when trying to get new ones, which ended up pile diving the IP into the ground.
     
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  50. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    What I find interesting is when I compare this pack to the Western Maryland Pack that was released on TS21.

    That pack uses a F7, GP9 and GP35, all which are already available (The F7 and GP9 being from the RSC days, the GP35 from DTM). Though modified and upgraded to more accurate WM version

    It uses a modern route (Hanover Subdivision) but vintage rolling stock (10 types plus a caboose in 3 colors).

    It comes with 10 career scenarios.

    And all of this is priced at $24.99 (Not sure what that converts to), yet it was well received compared to this pack for TSW2.
     

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