Disappointed In The Attitude Of The Community

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by matthewbguilford, Jun 13, 2020.

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  1. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Hi everyone, I know this is going to be a hard topic to talk about but I am very disappointed with how part of community refuses to have an open mind about the new direction DTG wants to take TSW2 and communication with the community. I have seen posts with optimism and enthusiasm but I also have seen part of the community not let go of “promises” or certain bugs that weren’t fixed in TSW. There obviously is a lot of things DTG wanted to do for TSW such as an editor or multiplayer that in the end couldn’t be delivered. Is that a reason to be disappointed? Yes it is! When they announced TSW2 I was very surprised they were planning on releasing a roadmap as a lot of complaints are from people who were expecting these features. The way DTG has addressed communication with us and after the Q&A sticking to yes and no answers, they really seem to have acknowledged the mistakes made in the first game and TSW2 is a fresh start not just for the game but for the studio and community as well. Instead of thinking about the past try to have some optimism for the future. All the upgrades being made seem to be ones that will really make our experience better and I am in no way upset about that. I hope some of you can learn to let go of TSW and the bugs and communication errors and can look forward to a new beginning. Thank you for your time!

    [image removed by Protagonist - doesn't help anyone]
     
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  2. Sumit

    Sumit Member

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    When you promise and do not deliver then who gonna believe you?
    You = DTG
    Fool me once, shame on you
    Fool me twice, shame on me
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  3. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    I will have an open mind, when DTG delivers on promises, and shows we are not being naive when we are open minded
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The reality is that their openness was just about telling us that they are not going to work on fixing bugs on existing content and that existing content is not going to be integrated with future routes. Even if you take out the editor and take out multiplayer that’s a big disappointment to people who have given them a lot of time to sort out bugs and still had hope that add-ons and improvements might one day happen to the content they have bought.

    This community has been very fair to DTG in giving them the benefit of the doubt and still giving them the chance to fix things. The very first day the company decide to start telling the truth in a Q&A, they took away all that good faith in one fell swoop. There’s obviously going to be a bad reaction to that, from a broad spread of players, who have held a range of opinions towards DTG before, because they have let absolutely everybody down.

    Add in to that promises from years ago about multiplayer absolutely coming to the game and live streams showing off the editor that’s coming and you have, for some people who were already fed up of this wait, a big smack in the face by saying that they are not coming. Yes, they say they are now in a position to start working towards bringing those things, but how can even believe that from the new all-telling truth machine. You can’t yet, and even if you do, it’s still stuff that has already been promised and now un-promised and re-promised again.

    Personally, I don’t care about the editor or multiplayer, or steam trains for that matter, but lots of people do.

    Now, before releasing the last piece of DLC for TSW you tell your customers that it won’t be supported in the future, along with everything you have bought up to this point, even in its broken state with no fixes, and you expect that people will now thank you for being honest.

    All of this while promoting your next game as the evolution of train simulators, which will contain features you know don’t work (Mastery) a couple of gimmicky things and only a couple of actual gameplay features. When people ask if the lighting and shadow draw distances and other things that were below par in the last version will be vastly improved in this ‘evolution’ they are told that they will all be exactly the same. Some jaws would have been hitting the floor but not with amazement.

    Now, I’m much more forgiving with DTG than a lot of other people here but I just wrote all of that above because I believe it to be a justified response and it’s how I feel right now.

    I don’t think we should be falling over ourselves to be praising DTG for a little bit of honesty right now. Maybe when TSW2 comes out, has had a year’s worth of decent DLC, and the honesty has continued, but along with fixing of problems in good time and no excuses, then we can heap praise on them (again for some of us, for the first time for others).

    Right now, the attitude of the community is exactly how it should be. Optimism may come later.
     
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  5. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    TSW certainly has some bugs, but other then very specific instances these bugs are neither game breaking or take away from the enjoyment of the overall game. In my case every route or locomotive DLC that I purchased for TSW ended up giving me hours upon hours of enjoyment. Even the Amtrak dlc which is the biggest offender in my opinion with the safety systems not working as intended. I still got my money’s worth from it. If you look at NEC and then compare it to OSD. The difference of what DTG has learned when making a route or locomotive is night and day. I certainly didn’t expect them or even want them to go back to those first routes and fix issues because I’d rather them making new routes/locomotives for me to enjoy. I enjoyed NEC just as much as OSD. I own every DLC on TSW and I was very happy to hear they are moving on and going to fully support TSW2. I’m not expecting people to be naive and not to voice their worries or frustrations but I don’t agree with being negative towards a developer who over promised features at the beginning not realizing the amount of things that could go wrong along the way. Without DTG I wouldn’t have ever had a chance to play a train simulation and I wouldn’t have had the years of enjoyment or the interest in trains in general. That to me is far more important then a bug that didn’t get fixed. We all learn and use that knowledge going forward. I feel DTG is doing the same.
     
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  6. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Try spending 2 hours on CSX to finally get back to Cumberland Yard, stop at a red signal and go through all the info messages requesting clearance to continue and then waiting. And continue waiting because the light never changes. Sending further requests does nothing, just running the red boots you with a failure for passing red.

    Now I know it's not a game breaking bug, but as there are younger members of this forum shall we just say I was a little disappointed. It certainly took away my enjoyment that day!

    I too, don't really care about multi-player or steam. I would probably have a tinker with the editor but depending on how intuitive it was, would determine how much time I spent on it.

    But to be told, that everything I have bought so far which is in the hundreds of pounds can be ported to the new game but not utilised with any of the new options, I found unfair and whether people like it or not if you believe something is unfair you have the right to say so. Just take a look at tonight's news if you don't believe me!

    It's not good for the community or for DTG if they are not called out on things which aren't right. If they are left to think that everyone loves them regardless, there is no reason for them to maintain standards and then the quality of what they produce will drop. If they know people won't put up with it, then it should be keeping them on their toes thinking they better get their act together.

    The new honesty policy they appear to want to adopt is brutal at times and sometimes the answers aren't what we want to hear. But why do you think they are now adopting this policy? Do you think one day the CEO just thought "I know let's start and be more honest with our customers"? No, it' most likely because they have been called out that many times by the community that they felt they needed to get the community back onside or they aren't going to be selling the quantity they wanted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  7. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    Stujoy very well described my feelings towards DTG right now. Believe me, I love TSW. I have over 400 hours of playtime in it which isn't that little, and I plan to continue playing it. It's a great game. But honestly, at the moment, I feel like I should just close my wallet for it.

    I feel betrayed that they just decided to stop supporting content which I so invested in. The problem here is that the way they communicated their plans for TSW2020 nurtured a false hope of continuity for the game. I bought their products because I trusted DTG to expand on them. It was my way of telling them that I support and believe them that they will continue to develop them, by fixing bugs and adding new content to the existing routes. Yes, they still are, TSW2 will be an upgrade afterall, but simultaneously will cut all ties with it's predecessor.

    Why? Is there really such incompatibility between game engines, that old content cannot be upgraded to utilise in the new engine version? Doubtful, since CSX: Heavy Haul has been successfully integrated. What is the real reason for this remains a mystery, though I have my suspicions.
     
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  8. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, because there's nothing I like more than waiting for a service to arrive that is being hauled by a 45 that I CANNOT get on, or a 47 that has a constant Alarm that I CANNOT switch off, seeing trains with their tail lights on going FORWARDS, passengers getting of the WRONG side of the platform and dropping onto the tracks, seeing loco's moving with NO DRIVER or in WRONG CAB and having my 2nd man dressed in a TRACKSUIT! Also nothing wrong of course seeing passengers in carriages in sidings, no that doesn't spoil anything.
     
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  9. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I myself have had that kind of situation happen to me and yes it’s frustrating but to say I didn’t enjoy my time up until that moment wouldn’t be true and I’d move on to the next service. It doesn’t happen enough to warrant constant negativity in the community. I think people should voice their opinions and change does happen from people speaking up. It’s hard to make a positive thing happen with uneducated negativity around. I remember reading a post on here and the person said “I will complain about this until it’s fixed even though it doesn’t effect me.” and people actually trying to take legal action for such minor and ridiculous things. I don’t understand why this is unfair to you? I think in reality the TSW routes shouldn’t even be coming over to TSW2 as I can continue to play them as I always have. It will be nice to able to have them all in one place, but for the price of $30 for two brand new routes and Sandpatch that utilize all of the upgrades made to TSW2 seems like a great deal and I wouldn’t expect any of that to be updated into TSW. I actually saw someone say they would have rather them announced TSW2021 and the new routes come to TSW at $30 each if it meant they would continue to fix bugs in the game. Is that worth paying more for? Not having a scenario editor implemented and being stuck on an old version of the UE engine that made making new features and updates harder, losing the adhesion physics or dynamic skybox or an improved version of the game engine?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  10. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Ive played a lot of TSW have never had these things happen to me. How often do those things happen to you? Do you quit the game as soon as you see your 2nd man in a tracksuit? Because that sounds awesome to me. The most I have seen is when passengers fall on to the tracks in one instance. Did that ruin my entire service. I’d argue it made it better.
     
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  11. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    You are a breath of fresh air compared to most people on here. I agree with you. DTG has updated the engine and ADDED REQUESTED FEATURES! They added things that people asked for, yet they still aren't happy.
     
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  12. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    I still get a lot of enjoyment from this game. If they had a seperate forum for news, udates, and useful information, I would go there rather than come to this toxic forum. They have the afforementioned sections, but you still see the negativity on the way in and out. The trolls on here really got to me after months of trying to stay quiet. I was excited about the announcement of the new game but instead saw far too many complaints and even downright lies flooding the forums once it was announced.
     
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  13. Railfan722

    Railfan722 Well-Known Member

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    People don't like having to pay for features that were advertised at the launch of TSW, like editors or dynamic skies that were always supposedly being worked on. Paying for an entire collection just to be told that none of it will be supported anymore is a bit of a slap to the face.
     
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  14. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    EVERYTIME on service mode.

    If you own the routes:-
    (NTP) Spawn on foot in service mode at Leeds, 5 mins before the express to Manchester is due, if it's a 45, see if you can get in the cab!
    (NTP) If you are in Huddersfield after 9am, have a look at the 08 and the carriage in the sidings!
    (TVL) In Tees Yard, wait for a 31 to arrive and watch it for a while whilst it sets off forward with either a) no driver or b) in wrong cab
    On GWE wait for a train to arrive in Paddington, then watch it depart with headlights on going off in reverse whilst Tail lights are on going Forwards
    Yes, I try and sit on and off the 2nd man seat to try and get a proper railworker there, if not, I'll leave the cab - it's just so unrealistic, unless you want to pretend you are giving your chavvy mate or relative a cab ride (ok as a one off LOL)
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  15. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they've added features, but they've also removed them.

    The fact that *every* single piece of DLC I've ever purchased for TSW will become incompatible with the latest version is really upsetting. I purchased the M3 last month expecting the bugs to be fixed. It now looks like this won't be the case.

    Three routes for £25 is good value. Pretty much everyone will agree there. But the treatment from DTG is terrible.
     
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  16. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    It can be immersion breaking to have that stuff happen but those are specific instances that the majority of people won’t run into or even notice and I certainly would rather have the time it would take to fix that to be focused on new routes/locomotives. I’m an artist, this is my first painting. This is my 500th painting which one is better, and should I go back and start painting over my first painting? No I make new, creative ones with the skills I have learned.
     
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  17. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    So basically what DTG are doing now, release bugged content, may fix one or two (not all) issues straight after release but after that forget about it and onto releasing the next bugged content..... rinse and repeat

    OK, well each to their own I guess, but I, for now am done with purchasing anything more for TSW/TSW2 until DTG improve which I really hope they do because there's no doubt the game really has potential if developed correctly.

    Edit: I look forward to reactions from yourself and others who are defending DTG when/if they announce that currently owned legacy routes & loco's will be "re-mastered" and available in TSW2 in the future ....BUT....you have to pay for them FULL PRICE again and there's little to no difference from TSW1 version!!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  18. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Although I am in a minority of one.... I don't believe that DTG said this in the Q&A. I fully understand why people (everyone else) believe(s) this, but I don't believe that this is what will actually happen. This is one of those very rare situations where I actually have far more faith in DTG than any other person (it seems). I have very strong reasons to believe what I believe.... although I could be wrong, of course... well.... if I am wrong, I strongly believe that will be the case for a very short while.... ;-)

    I am only prepared to believe that DTG will.... um.... try to..... drop support for TSW content when their published bug reporting process is amended to make it absolutely clear that they do not accept bug reports for original TSW DLC content. I don't think that you will see this happen, and I have very strong reasons to believe this.
     
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  19. MarkL

    MarkL Member

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    You need to realize that "give me hours upon hours of enjoyment", "these bugs are not game breaking, I had fun regardless", "I got my money's worth from them" is purely subjective stuff on your part. And that's good for you. You are happy DTG gave you some awesome Train Simulation you didn't know it existed. Understandable. Cool!
    But train simulation existed before DTG and will exist after DTG anyway. They are not some saints who showed you light. They are a company who we trust our money with and expect results in return.
    The community here is upset about objective tangible facts. Sloppy DLC. Too many bugs. Underdelivering on release and underdelivering on bugfixing rounds. Overpromising - breaking promises. These things are not somebody's opinion. They are actual occurences. They are "history" of sorts.

    And many around here know DTG's history not only from TSW's last 5 years but also from the days TS was their only train simulation game. That's why their latest shenaningans don't fly. Its good you are content with TSW as-is right now but by elaborating so much on the "I am disappointed on the community" and "I am ok so why are others are not okay?" you come across as trying really hard to prove something and to impose your own mentality to others. Sadly, many DTG's defendants line of argument is the "I'm optimistic so you should be, too". It doesn't work like that.
    Is there some uneducated negativity, as you said? Probably yes. But for the most part its the right kind of negativity that comes from customers when they aren't respected by the company. Simple as that.
     
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  20. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Taking your analogy, I own a BMW car or a Sony TV that have had intermittent faults since the day I bought them. I've only had them a few months and the faults don't always happen and I can't always recreate the conditions that causes the faults. Do I ask the manufacturer to try and rectify the faults or give me a working replacement? Or do I just accept that they have decided to build a new model now and buy that?
     
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  21. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Matthew,
    I agree with you. DTG can do what they want, but some forum members will always be not satisfied. I think that's normal. But what is not okay, are the behavior of some of them. Some use bad words, other want to make legal steps against DTG. My opinion is that we should be happy that there is a little company of train enthusiasts that give us such a nice train simulator. TSW is the most realistic simulator I ever played.
     
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  22. MarkL

    MarkL Member

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    Really, Anthony?
    You tell people with a straight face that the community requested
    - a scenario planner that can't share (and also sounds like a very flexible quick drive really, from Matt's description)
    - a livery editor that also can't share
    - more beautiful skies
    - adhesion (wait, we already had that)
    - some Dovetail Live gimmicks
    and also act surprised the community sees it got none of the features it requested? Are you completely out of touch, or do you bend the facts as you please?
     
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  23. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Removed what?
     
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  24. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    We did not not have adhesion before...
     
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  25. Sumit

    Sumit Member

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    Anthony is DTG fanboi
     
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  26. MarkL

    MarkL Member

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    bingo
    turns out we didn't and the wheelslip feature that shipped earlier (and was pretty cool in my opinion) was half-baked too.
     
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  27. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Read the second half of my post. The part that quote clearly states what will soon to be missing.
     
  28. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    If people think the community are upset now, imagine if in forthcoming streams they say that "route extensions are not possible" or "we will not be extending routes" the DTG fans best run for the hills! :D
     
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  29. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    maybe because these features were promised for TSW, and not for TSW2, which, in their own words is an entirely different game. I get that you really, really like DTG for some reason, but can't you just acknowledge that they didn't deliver with TSW, and that is a fact, not an opinion. It is a fact that we didnt get all features they promised. There is no denying that.
     
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  30. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I myself hoping for better news in their upcoming steams leading up to the release on Aug 6. It was a bitter pill to sallow when they said that the existing content would now be referred too as Preserved and no further bug fixes or upgrades to those routes will not happen after Aug 6.

    So hoping what ever else they are planning will have to good.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
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  31. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Very "matured" post.
     
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  32. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    “They are not some saints who showed you light” As anyone who plays TSW on console knows DTG are the first to bring a train simulator to console. You are right, I was stating my own opinion with regards to how I see TSW and DTG and the content they have released. Can I say for fact that I got my $30 worth by driving the GP-38 services on NEC or delivering steel with the 37 on tees valley? Yes I can. Can for a fact say that other people did? No. If that’s because of a game breaking bug then I understand but if it’s because the platforms aren’t wet or you didn’t like the sound of the horn. I think that’s overreacting. When Mudrunner was released we were promised console mods, it never happened. Was it upsetting yes, when they announced Snowrunner did the community run after the developers with pitchforks? No. A lot of systems are in place to make a game run that I don’t begin to understand. “It would be so easy to add an editor.” Well maybe that’s what DTG thought until they realized it was a much larger and dedicated project and wouldn’t be possible. Does that make the liars and scam artists? No. When purchasing route/locomotives you know what you are paying for and that is fact.
     
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  33. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! Because some people want everything. If they announced route extensions then the same people would have an uproar saying DTG are purposely making the routes less to sell extensions. That’s the thing about making a game like this. Everyone is passionate about it.
     
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  34. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    The decision to carry on pushing out dlc as a cash cow and the decision to pause and hit the reset button seem mutually exclusive to me. Why would DTG take this fairly risky, bold move if it just results in more of the same.. for this reason I am optimistic but I'll still be waiting for evidence before I buy in. One needs to see that the leopard has changed its spots.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2020
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  35. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I’m very new to TSW 2020 and DTG having only discovered the game during lockdown on my PS4. Having found the game, I quickly fell in love with it and have really enjoyed playing most of the routes.

    Having seen what DTG is doing with TSW 2, I’m both excited and disappointed. TSW 2 is clearly a step up from TSW 2020 and I’m excited to see what new routes, trains and added realism will bring. But I’m very disappointed that existing TSW 2020 content is effectively abandoned. Why no upgrades, continued bug fixes or expansions to this content? Why are so many requested features such as shadow improvements etc ignored?

    TSW has the potential to be amazing. I hope it realises that potential.

    PS. Whilst livery editor sounds fun, I’d have preferred more effort put into new routes/trains/upgrades/bug fixes etc. I’m not really sure why a livery editor/designer took precedence as it doesn’t really add anything to the immersion of the game.
     
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  36. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I do believe many developers, not just DTG, are lazier now when testing new content because update patches can always be downloaded (if a patch is ever made) at a later date. Back when games could not be updated, testing always seemed to be more extensive and although bugs still existed, I think more time/care (in my view) was taken to thrash the bugs before publication.

    I’m thinking old school Sega, Nintendo, PS1 games etc with discs or cartridges.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2020
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  37. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The days of having to wait for the postman to deliver updates and patches on half a dozen 3.5 inch floppy disks!

    For anyone who has never lived without internet, you're just going to have to Google what a floppy disk was! :cool:
     
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  38. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    They actually removed the working level crossings from Sand Patch Grade for TSW2, so there is that, lol. Sure it's a small thing, but it represents perfectly their way of problem solving. It didn't work well so instead of fixing it, they just removed it altogether.
     
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  39. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    That's something I've been reading for 10 years probably. This company always acted the same, always, regarding the support of their content and delivering far-from-refined products. Their simulator(s) is not the "definitive experience" at all. We all know that. We "force" ourselves to enjoy their product just because there is no one producing something better.

    You can still believe that the future will be better, go ahead. But being a fanboy like many in this thread just hides you (a general you, nothing personal to anyone intended) from the reality. At least, now they started telling the truth, and avoid misleading us, the customers, promising stuff that will never be delivered.

    EDIT: removed the expression "total" before fanboy as it was misused by myself. Apologies.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
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  40. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    The people on this thread who have a positive outlook on this game are “Fanboys” that hide from reality. You act like I’m not a person who just enjoys a train simulator and would like to see something positive come from the community. Instead we get a majority of this. I’d rather be in your opinion a “fanboy”.

    [image removed by Protagonist - unhelpful]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2020
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  41. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    And what is with the longer freight trains, so CSX HH becomes more realistic. And we will get additional services for that route too. That facts for me are more important than working level crossings. At the moment the train length in HH is maximum at 50 cars besides one scenario with more. Even if it's in the future with around 100 that would come closer to the reality with 150 till 250. I personal hope that it will be around 150.
     
  42. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Ultimately, DTG and Train Sim World would not exist if not for their loyal fans who pay their hard earned money to enjoy train simulation.

    The fans must NOT be ignored.

    If something is requested enough, is technically feasible, is achievable and if it improves the immersion/realism of the game, DTG should look to implement it as soon as possible. Why ignore it?

    Happy Fans = Loyaler Fans! :cool:
     
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  43. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    this has nothing to do with a positive view of the situation, by now, you should call it a naive view. Positive is when you see a bright future. If you see a bright future, you are naive in my opinion. We have been let down so many times. Why would it be different now? Maybe it will be different now, but I wanna see it before I'll believe it. me/we have nothing against people being positive about DTG, but after all that has happened, you are denying the facts.
     
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  44. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    name one example of them implementing a requested feature, without making us pay again for the 'upgrade'
     
  45. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Naiv is, if you think you get a consumer product that fulfills all your expectations. To be realistic, such a product is impossible to make.

    First of all because each customer has other expectations. You can compare it with cars. Some like full digital cockpits without any buttons. Others want exactly the opposite. And for some companies it is a economic question if they are able to offer both.

    It is the same with the editor. Some like it, some not.

    Each company has a hard job by making products. They have to find a compromise to hit the expectations of the majority of the customers as long it is economic enough.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
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  46. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    "Cab-sway" (or "head sway" or "camera sway").
     
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  47. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Well-Known Member

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    something that should have been there from the beginning.
     
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  48. SaMa1

    SaMa1 Active Member

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    I have been thinking of the structure of DTG. They have a team of 140 people consisting of very talented and inspired programmers and artists that are also train fans, yet the visible progress is comparable to a startup software house with 10 people(like Derail Valley team). The only probable answer here is that the there is a bloated executive level that is mismanaging the very inspired workforce without a clear direction for the franchise. Somehow Star Citizen comes to my mind.
     
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  49. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Which is why they are starting over fresh.
     
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  50. Tomas9970

    Tomas9970 Well-Known Member

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    Star citizen at least shows some ground-breaking technology, something that has never been done before. DTG usually does relatively basic stuff.
     
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