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Dlc Cost Worth It?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by byeo, Feb 7, 2020.

?
  1. Yes

    30.1%
  2. No

    18.1%
  3. I’d pay more for longer routes and less for shorter

    51.8%
  1. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Do you think a standard £24.99 for DLC’s are acceptable?

    I’ve been looking at the length of previous DLC’s (not counting Heavy Haul as it’s not on console. I’ve also excluded GWE, Rapid Transit & NEC as they came in a bundle with TSW console version). I’ve worked out the price for each DLC per mile of track in each route released.

    *route distances were taken from https://train-sim-world.fandom.com/wiki/Train_Sim_World_Wiki which was created by NorthRail1

    Ruhr Sieg Nord (DE) £24.99, 38 miles (61km), £0.65 per mile

    Long Island Rail Road (US) £24.99, 42 miles (68km), £0.59 per mile

    Northern Trans-Pennine (UK) £24.99, 43 miles (69km), £0.58 per mile

    Main-Spessart Bahn (DE) £24.99 40 miles (65km), £0.62 per mile

    Tees Valley Line (UK) £24.99, 27 miles (43km), £0.92per mile

    Peninsular Corridor (US) £24.99, 47 miles (75km), £0.53 per mile

    Rhein-Ruhr Osten (DE) £24.99, 26 miles (42km), £0.96 per mile

    East Coast Way (UK) £24.99, 30 miles (48km), £0.83 per mile

    Oakville Subdivision (CN) £24.99, 24 miles (37km), £1.04 per mile

    It’s quite clear that DTG are releasing shorter routes for the same price as longer ones which means they’ll make more money as it takes less time and resources to create compared to a longer route. Whether we like it or not, DTG pumping out shorter routes and still charging the same price make sense for them, I don’t agree with it but those who make the decision will see this as the best way to milk us of £££ for as little work as possible.

    4 out of the last 5 DLC’s have been 30 miles and under. Let’s see what length the next DLC is because if it’s around the similar distance you can bet that’s their “sweet spot” and they’ll continue to churn out shorter routes over longer routes people would want to see.
     
  2. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I do. You have to realize how much effort they put into these routes.
     
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  3. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    The calculation is useless, as the value of a route is not measured by its lenght.
     
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  4. BjornGroen02NL

    BjornGroen02NL Well-Known Member

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    hint: click on the link in my signature ;)
     
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  5. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this - we don't yet know what the new route will feature to justify that £1/mile and it should be judged more by the play time you will get from the route. Only then will you have a realistic £/hour price.

    It's true enough that you can buy many full price games for the cost of one DLC, but it's also true that I rarely, if ever, pay full price for games just so I can be one of the first to play them. If you wait, let the initial bugs get fixed, then pick them up for half price or less in a sale, you've already massively increased the play-per-price value.

    If you're going to buy one or two routes and play them to death, then you can probably justify a day one, full price purchase, but I'd rather wait, have a wide variety routes to swap between at a lower cost, and be less depressed if I end up with a route I don't particularly enjoy. I've only just picked up Peninsula Corridor, and in time, will probably get the Baby Bullet and ECW, but not before the prices come down.

    All that said, if they brought out the WM Trains / CrossCountry route I proposed south from Birmingham New Street, with an EMU and a Voyager, I'd absolutely buy on day one and pay full price, so I guess it's where your priorities lie.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  6. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I do believe that route should have price sets based on their length of the route. A longer route should be more than a shorter route but at reasonable price and the same with a shorter route but again within reason.

    We all get that the developers want to ensure they get back what they put into making the route, but if prices were reasonable I am sure that they would be able to achieve that.
     
  7. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    I paid full price for the Tees Valley dlc and I love it, but I'd have paid more if we'd have been able to drive the passenger train to Bishop Auckland and had access to all the sidings and locations we don't visit. I'd hoped the class 31 dlc would have included activities like tripping cement wagons down the branch to Middlesbrough docks but we only get to leave the train in Tees Yard. There is a rail connected engineering works between Darlington and Dinsdale, every time I go past I think how great it would be to take a couple of steel wagons in there. There's Teesport between Grangetown and Redcar. Another source of freight ignored and more track we can't visit. There is so much potential for interesting railway activity. I would gladly pay for scenario packs if they ever introduce them. A route's value is not just about it's length. Trans Pennine is longer but most of the stations are rationalised and are basically bus stops. Marsden has a loop but we never use it, same at Diggle on the approach to Standedge tunnel. The value of the route to us players could be increased, not by adding assets or more track but by more intensively using what is already there. Imagine driving a heavy oil train up towards the tunnel, you're running late and you get put into the loop to allow a passenger train to pass. Realistic operation and it wouldn't cost them a penny.
     
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  8. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Active Member

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    I think the price is fine, personally, but it's entirely subjective of course. For me, length does not correlate to quality, and therefore shouldn't determine price. I've played plenty of long routes in MSTS/TS20xx that were frankly boring (or of poor quality) and I regretted buying them. Conversely, some of the shortest routes in TSW I've had the most fun with (ECW, RRO), and most crucially, I think they have shown improvement with just about every release, especially over the past year or so.

    Having been in the train-sim hobby for almost 20 years now (yikes!), I feel like it just comes with the territory that it's going to be expensive if you must have all available content. It's a niche product, and I'm OK with subsidizing the hobby that I enjoy so much.
     
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  9. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    How do you factor in the cost to build enormous yards like the one down in Hamilton in this case, a yard might account for "3 miles" of route length, but take as much as half the total time to make the route.

    Playing devils advocate a bit... but if you say - price should be based on route length, then you're saying you'd rather have a 2 track desert line as long as possible, than something perhaps more interesting?

    Oakville Sub is primarily a switching route, with the enormous yard area in the south of the route at Hamilton, and then there are other yards along the way between Hamilton and Oakville that you can use as well. Plus, unlike a large more conventional yard like Cumberland on Sand Patch Grade, the track network in Hamilton is sprawling, crosses over, has tight curves, wye's, loops, and who knows what so moving around it requires some thought and planning - making it, in my view, very interesting indeed.

    Good discussion :)
     
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  10. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Active Member

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    You make some very good points here. I think scenario and service design are extremely important especially given there's no option for community created content at this time. Honestly, I think the quality varies greatly from route to route- my personal favorite was the BR Heavy Haul pack. If every loco/wagon pack release was up to that quality level, I'd be very happy.
     
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  11. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Simple solution: if you think a DLC "isn't worth it", don't buy it (and lose the pre-release discount, which you neglected to factor in anyway) without bothering the rest of us.
     
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  12. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Hear, hear!!!!!!! As a lover of freight, particularly switching, this is the DLC of my dreams -- and with it DTG enters its fourth country: Canada, ducking that country's long passenger services in favor (he wrote, redundantly) of freight and switching. I'm eagerly awaiting the release of this package!!!!!
     
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  13. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    Well, that answers a few thing about the route. But it does not explain the GP38 reuse.
     
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  14. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    The pack has one completely new loco which was challenging to build as there was no access to it and surprisingly little photo reference (of the interior at least). The GP38-2 has had quite a bit of work done on it, lots of work in the cab as well as the modifications on the exterior, it's by no means a reskin. Not to mention new functionality developed on both for working and interactive airflow meters, class lights and so forth. GP38-2 is perfectly valid for the route.
     
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  15. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the info I have been waiting on a Canadian route to be added since TSW birth, being from Canada I hope we can look forward to more Canadian content down the road.
     
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  16. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    As a console player, I’m not sure which routes had pre-order discounts compared to PC which get a discount via Steam every time
     
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  17. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the response Matt, I don’t want people to think I’m against TSW and want it to fail, far from it. I love the game, I’m passionate about it’s success and from reading other comments about the length of this and a few other DLC’s though this would be an interesting topic to discuss.

    I’m going to come across as two faced now but keep up the good work, the new DLC looks stunning but switching isn’t for me personally. I just hope that we’ll see longer routes this coming year.
     
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  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Good question. And the obvious answer is "No, of course not". And the general answer is "No, no way".

    But the wrong answer is "No, no way, never". It is possible for a DLC to be worth £25. It is literally a value judgment, and a matter for individuals to weigh up for themselves - and it depends on what you want out of life, how much you can afford, and what you compare it against. Here are a few things that you can currently buy for £25:

    - another full-price route DLC for TSW, that might need further rolling stock DLCs (at additional cost) to make it not feel like 28 Days Later
    - 50 cigarettes (I have no idea, but maybe 25mg of nicotine...?)
    - a quarter of a taxi ride from central London to Heathrow
    - 50 packets of pasta (25kgs in total) from Tesco
    - TV licence for two months (pay it or you will get a criminal record for this TV subscription service that pays Gary Lineker £millions every year to talk about football for a couple of hours per week, during the football season)
    - about 2 seconds of Gary Lineker's verbal wisdom on football matches (if you are the BBC, and paying him for his premium rate chat)
    - MotoGP19 (£13) including about 20 tracks and four racing formulae (including eMoto...!), plus the original Dirt Rally with all DLC and the VR upgrade (£7.39 for everything) and have about a fiver left for a jar of fairly nice coffee
    - Wreckfest (£22) plus a small jar of cheap coffee
    - Red Dead Redemption II
    - TSW 2021, probably available in August 2020 with three or four of the TSW DLC routes released over the year, but you have to wait

    If you know that you are going to spend a hundred hours on a DLC, then that's 25p per hour. And it doesn't matter how many rail miles it is. If you want it immediately upon release, you pay the premium. And the DLC is then clearly worth £25 to you.

    But....you are asking this question to a very very small subset of people. People that know that there is a Forum for TSW and sometimes read it and catch your post. There is therefore a pretty good chance that some of these people will think that the DLC is worth £25, especially if they don't like simulated rally cars or bikes, real coffee, nicotine or pasta.

    But.... (on PS4)...

    92% of people have not completed the tutorial on WSR
    89% of people have not completed the tutorial on RSN
    88% of people have not completed the tutorial on LIRR
    86% of people have not completed the tutorial on NTP
    85% of people have not completed one service on MSB
    98% (!) of people have not completed the (Cl 37) tutorial on TVL (surely something wrong here....?)
    93% of people have not completed the tutorial on SFJ
    93% of people have not completed one service on RRO
    93% of people have not completed reached 70mph in the 377 on ECR

    99% of people have not completed the tutorial for the Class 33 (beauty has obviously gone out of fashion)
    99% of people have not completed the tutorial for the Class 52
    99% of people have not completed the tutorial for the Class 31
    98% of people have not completed the tutorial for the BR 182
    99% of people have not completed the tutorial for the BR 155 (more fool them, I say, but maybe they like RSN tunnels to be noisy)
    99% of people have not completed the tutorial for the BR Heavy Freight Pack
    99% of people have not completed the tutorial for the Amtrak SW1000R

    These are the PS4 trophies/achievements that have the highest completion rates for each DLC. Most of them amount to "I have started playing the DLC" - this isn't, obviously, an explicit count of the rate of purchase - but I reckon it is pretty close.

    It really makes me wonder why the vehicle DLC (to the route DLC) are put on sale in the first place, if the take-up rate is one per cent or less. But I guess it isn't that much different from the Sims 4 "DLC whaling" concept....

    So, anyway, in summary, if you didn't think it was worth buying the DLC for TSW...... at any price at all........, then you would not be alone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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  19. doc_woods

    doc_woods Member

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    I know I've always felt that the value of the loco add-ons is usually less than a route (which usually comes with 1-2 locos, plus the actual route). I'm slightly surprised that so many people seem to agree, according to those statistics. That said, I've only bought the TSW and TSW2020 collections and not anything additional for it and from those numbers it looks like I'm relatively normal.

    The 7% conversion rate for each route actually doesn't seem terrible to me. It's always advertised as "you don't have to buy everything, but what interests you" and clearly different things interest different people.
     
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  20. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I've completed the tutorial on NTP, but don't have the trophy (one of many I'm owed), so that lowers its value for me straight away! :D
     
  21. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Oh easy! Simply:

    - build out the yard quickly and cheaply
    - don't apply any effective QA/QC process pre-publication
    - don't fix any obvious howlers even after publication

    Just like this on TVL:

    TVL Yard Building Quality.jpg

    NB: I agree with you about route miles. If the route is interesting, busy, challenging, attractive and different, that's the key thing. The curation of routes and rolling stock is one of the best stand-out features of TSW - although obviously it is a bit unfortunate when customers feel that they are paying for the same locomotive multiple times.
     
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  22. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Active Member

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    100 likes if it were possible. I completely agree with you. I'm so happy to get a Canadian route!
     
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  23. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    The conversion/retention rate is probably a bit higher for the route DLCs. The "base case" for TSW (the original) is that 67% of people that have TSW installed on their PS4 account have achieved the most popular trophy for the base game, or put another way:

    33% have not completed the tutorial for the BR442 or the BR 185.2; and,
    36% have not completed the tutorial for the ACS64 or the M7 or the GP38-2; and
    64% have not reached 125mph in the HST.

    And that's a complex Venn diagram.... I think it would probably be reasonable to say something like:

    - about 10% of people that buy TSW end up buying a route DLC; and,
    - for everyone that buys a specific route DLC, that about 10% of those people then buy a rolling stock DLC for that specific DLC (giving you 1% to 2% for these DLC DLCs).

    But that is purely an inference. It's all ball park estimates. It could be that an even smaller number, say 2% (um, like me...), buy multiple route DLCs and rolling stock DLCs, but I don't think this is the case (I agree with you - people probably dip in according to interest/nationality). I note that these percentages have remained pretty constant for the last two years. And this leads me to the question - why not just incorporate the rolling stock DLC into the route DLC, and sell it all as a bigger/better package for one reasonable price?

    The other question is: What on earth happened with TVL? I think that this is probably the best UK route. The art deco lighting at Darlington is very cute. Maybe the duplicated 101 put people off....? But the Class 37, and the steel workings are superb. And the Class 31 is pretty much key to understanding the development of British diesel traction from steam.... Okay - I am going to try and lend Dovetail a hand, and earnestly encourage people to watch this video (and then immediately buy TVL and the Class 31), and that is despite my picture of the dodgy P&Xing.....

    Superb Video on Class 31 Construction and Operation:
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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  24. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Yes that would have prefect for me as well.
     
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  25. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Or at the same route price, but with an improved perceived value so you sell more and potentially recoup more of the loco development cost than you would by selling it separately.

    How many more people would buy Peninsula Corridor if the Baby Bullet was included by default? How many more would buy the new Canada route if it was also going to get a GO addition for free in a couple of months?
     
  26. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    That’s not far from the truth I think, the DLC I own are:

    Long Island Rail Road
    Northern Trans Pennine
    Peninsula Corridor
    East Coast Way

    Obviously there is currently only one piece of dlc available right now for NTP but I don’t own it as it’s not appealing to me. LIRR or ECW loco dlc on the other hand.. count me in. I’m not buying the Baby Bullet dlc either, I can run the Bullet services as is on Peninsula Corridor, the Bullet loco doesn’t interest me.
     
  27. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    The dlc prices are okay for me. And unlike TS we got for each new route a new loco and roling stock in TSW.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
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  28. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Matt,

    My hopes for the future of OSD are:

    Please work on getting licenses from the operators of the passanger trains at OSD (Via Rail) for a future loco addon for OSD.

    Please bring out a SD70 loco DLC for OSD in the future. I would pay for this loco addon the same price like for a complete route, because I love that northamerican heavy diesel loco so much.
     
  29. raildan

    raildan Well-Known Member

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    TBH I'm not really that bothered by length like some are. In fact, sometimes I like shorter routes- I only play this somewhat casually, and sometimes I like a just 40 minute session.

    I didn't like the new route at first because I didn't think it had enough to do, as in real life the switching here is just a background thing and it seems really odd to base the route on- I'm just not used to this being a short industrial switching route. Slowly, I'm starting to warm up to the route, though, as it does seem like a nice switching thing, and I will get it on a future sale- however, they left so much out of the route that they could have put in with more effort that I can't say it's worth $30.

    And it seems that with each route they put less effort into it- not by lowering the quality (although that's not getting any better) but the quantity of content in each DLC. They're trying to do as little work as possible with the most profits- naturally, as a business. And that does annoy me a bit, I won't lie- I just stopped buying DLC after RRO was announced. They're trying to figure out what routes they can get away with being short yet just enjoyable enough for people that they'll buy it, and not scaling the price with it, I think.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  30. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    They have stated they want to make a good variety of routes that way there is something for everyone to enjoy. I’d say they have done a pretty good job of that. Looking at the pictures from the upcoming OS route, it looks beautiful to me. I’d love to see 50+ mile routes at some point but the location and activities are far more important to me. If you can believe that DTG doesn’t have one care for the hobby and only cared about money, why would they take the time to make such detailed routes and locomotives, there are company’s that don’t care one bit about there consumer or product and I honestly don’t feel like DTG fits in that category. I look forward to the day when we do start to get longer routes and route extensions but to say I haven’t had more then my moneys worth of enjoyment out of each DLC wouldn’t be true.
     
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  31. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree!
     
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  32. Doomotron

    Doomotron Active Member

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    I think that £25 is far too much to ask for when the average price for the same route in Train Simulator is £15, but as it's been said earlier, when I buy TSW DLC I feel I get my money's worth and I play the whole thing, instead of in TS where I usually play two or three scenarios on a route at most. It also comes down to priorities as Factor41 - even though the East Coastway is a complete rip-off, I still want it because I always go on that line and I like it.
     
  33. jetgriff

    jetgriff Active Member

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    Considering it's a new format, I think putting out several small routes to kick off with is acceptable, a small extension to one as a sign of good faith to us who supported the beginning would go down well....
    All takes time, My TS route, Derby Manchester Sheffield Bromsgrove took 10 years and involved joining 2 together but it was fun and I re-released it every 6 months or so with the additions updated. Also as a retired person I did it for free as I wanted to pay back all the free stuff I had with MSTS and encourage youngsters with limited means to enjoy simming.
    I cant wait for TSW editor to come out so I can get a crack at a new route or extending one, but as I am 75 now I don't think that will eventuate..
     
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  34. nne4229

    nne4229 Well-Known Member

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    Will this route ever get the use of its stations though?
     
  35. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I think the only way we will get use of the stations, is the route will need to be extended before they add any type of passenger service. Not sure if that will happen.
     
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  36. michael.j.meliambro

    michael.j.meliambro Member

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    While I am glad TSW is expanding its diversity with a Canadian route, I think the question should be tackled in earnest about whether certain new DLC content is worth the price....

    At the moment, CN Oakville Sub is 2nd only to the West Somerset Railway as the shortest DLC route in TSW (23 miles); though I should stress that route length is of no concern to me, in this case. What throws me off is the fact that WSR sold for $24.99, which may seem like a reasonable price, but the limited choice of just two locomotives and agonizingly slow speed limits had to be a disappointment for some.

    The same problem, I'm afraid, may apply to CN Oakville Sub. Some may prefer to pay more for a longer, more diverse route, but for those who are both money-conscious and expect the best bang for their buck, understandably, the fact that GO Transit commuter trains are not included in this route, despite having passenger stations, is just a CRIME.

    I've already seen it available to Pre-order on Steam for $26.99, but even for this price, and for a route as short as this, one would expect the driving experience, both passenger and freight, to be more diverse and incorporate just enough services to keep the buyer satisfied!
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  37. hyperlord

    hyperlord Active Member

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    I had to upgrade my SSD (size) because of the DLCs
     
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  38. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    They don’t have a GO Transit license. I’ve said this at least 5 times.
     
  39. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to first say - I totally loved your post...! If I make it to 75, then I hope that I will still have the faculty to do a bit of simming.... cos I don't think that I am young enough for the tech to be made available for me to do it as a brain in a jar...forever... unfortunately... :)

    Although I have completely avoided TS20xx thus far... I might now have to buy it just to try out your route...! I am finally looking to buy a very powerful PC (hopefully tax deductible) that will be solely dedicated to simulators, and although I really dislike Steam in principle, I will have to get a Steam account just to have a look at the physics in BeamNG Drive, and about half a dozen other titles on my list...
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  40. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    ....and that is something, if true, that.... as a general point.... could have been factored in before committing to build a route.... ? Just saying. It's the 6xP issue.... Proper Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance....

    EDITED TO ADD: It might just be that this Canadian route is fully dedicated to freight, and that there are no plans for passenger stuff, and if it has enough features that cater to this, then I really don't see that as a problem.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
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  41. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Matt could you do the same, what you did with the EMD GP 9 RM, with a german shunter locomotive (DB BR 261 or 294) please?
     
  42. trinancrat

    trinancrat New Member

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    Consensus in this thread seems to be that the DLC is worth the buy, so allow me to try to diversify the conversation by explaining why I voted "no."

    I agree that a route's length is not the end-all-be-all of its value, but I don't think we talk enough about rolling stock diversity. The general trend with each DLC is that Dovetail selects one novel trainset to model and then includes a slightly modified freight locomotive that we've already seen. Occasionally, we get just a single trainset. I can respect the amount of effort it takes to secure source materials and licensing, but this is not conducive to variable gameplay or an immersive experience. For instance, it's quite disappointing to play NEC or LIRR and see nothing but Amtrak ACS-64's and LIRR M7's zipping around. Microsoft Train Simulator actually anticipated this problem by including extra models that were driven around by the AI; having an extra class of train or two really made each route feel that much more alive.

    Too many bugs slip through the QA process, and if you were counting on the "wait and see" strategy, many of them simply never get fixed. The sound design is getting better but remains bland compared to Railworks' legacy soundscape. Small omissions, like the lack of working crossing gates or passenger information announcements, always prevent me from becoming fully immersed. With so many other video and simulation games competing for my attention, $25-30 is a lot to ask for what is essentially a single train sim mini-game. My personal rule is that I only buy DLC with a deep discount (60% or higher), and preferably as part of the cyclical main game bundle.
     
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  43. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think just looking at a route and valuing it on it's length is a case of "knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing".

    For a start you don't ever need to pay £24.99 for a route anyway, you can pre-order it at a discount or wait for a sale. However a shorter route can have just as much person hours going into creating it than a longer route depending on the terrain, amount of yards etc.

    Considering the hours of enjoyment I get out of most of the DLC then generally they are definitely worth £24.99, so surely in conclusion it comes down to an individuals perception of value of money rather than a blanket yes this is good value or no it isn't.
     
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