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Do Ai Passengers Need Work?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Ian1991, Jul 8, 2020.

?
  1. Yes

    52 vote(s)
    54.7%
  2. Not bothered

    9 vote(s)
    9.5%
  3. No they're fine as they are

    3 vote(s)
    3.2%
  4. Step-by-step improvements would increase the realism in game, no rush but needs to be done.

    38 vote(s)
    40.0%
  5. Keep the current system but use slider setting for more/less passengers.

    7 vote(s)
    7.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Well-Known Member

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    Just a quick one, to settle my own thoughts also to see if others think the same.

    Do you think AI passengers need/should be improved in TSW2 wether it be immediate or step by step?

    I find the issues with the following.

    1. not enough passengers on trains/platforms or walking the streets.

    2. Passengers spawn from thin air at the front end of the platform.

    3. When pulling into a station there are around 4/5 standing and another 20 start piling on the platform and spawning, but only the original 4 get on the train.

    4. There is no 'rush hour' on any route, the biggest varient is night time or early morning when there is next to no-body around.

    5. Passengers stand identical, or facing the wrong way and generally get in eachothers way all the time.

    I asked about this and had a response that there is currently no plan to change anything about passengers, which is abit of a kick in the teeth as suttle changes could make alot of difference. I have no issue with 20 people spawning as you pull in but then they just stand there, dont get on and watch you leave, surely it would be better if they get on? or just have the platform busier before you pull in. I even think a slider setting in the menu to let us choose if we want more/less if this is a performance thing.

    Vote in the pole if you agree that step by step changes would improve the overall realism and immersion of the game going forward.
     
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  2. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    The number of passengers could be increased easily probably, they're just not doing it for performance reasons, I suppose.

    As for passengers spawning in from thing air - it's weird, because on many routes there are proper distant spawn points for them, like at GWE, where they mostly try to leave via the overpasses or ticket gates, etc. There are also stations on the LIRR where passengers will come from a distant point and actually walk onto the platform. So it's probably just lazy detail if other routes don't feature this.

    Though it's certainly not a top priority for me, a bit more passengers and a few more models for them would definitely make station platforms a bit more lively. Also if they placed stationary crowds to places like they've done at London Paddington.
     
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  3. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    The passengers we have in the game at present are perfunctory at best - it's why they've never been highlighted as a "key feature" or "mindblowing new gameplay" function. They do a job, they do it... okay... and that's it.

    The reason there are so few passengers, as covered in the first Q&A stream, is because the more we add, the greater the likelihood they start behaving weirdly. Walking off the platform, floating in the air, and many more immersion breaking classics.

    Essentially, passengers have never been a key focus for the development team, who have enough to do elsewhere. Would it be good to add greater numbers and variety of passenger? Absolutely. We completely agree, we'll sign your petition! It's just not high enough up the priority list to happen at the current time.
     
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  4. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the response, I missed the first Q&A about them, but i was under the impression that the team/yourself dont see the need to improve them, however down the line would be interesting to see what may be done to improve them.
     
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  5. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    Quite the opposite, I assure you. The problem is it just isn't highly prioritised. We've a ton of items on the list we'd love to add and/or improve, but the priority list isn't a forgiving entity.
     
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  6. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    I find them OK at the moment, except of course when they start jumping out the wrong side of the train! I voted step by step upgrade, when time permits as there are a lot more key features that should take higher priority for immersion purposes.
     
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  7. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Memo to TSW and TSW passengers (and other digital personnel: "Write if you find work."
     
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  8. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Well-Known Member

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    Fully appreciate the time given to answer and explain so thank you very much. Have enjoyed the Q&A sessions about TSW2.

    A little off topic here but can I put you two questions for any future streams if cannot be answered here?

    1. A request to have the door open/close put to a keyboard command for pc users? just to save the pop up menu everytime make it a little more realistic if we dont want to keep moving camera views to use the mouse? so one keyboard button for open left....and right then another 2 for close?

    2. Will the loading times be different for the LU as its a tube? usually its one minute from doors open will there be a difference to compensate for the difference in travel.
     
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  9. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Probably best saving this question for the Bakerloo Q&A which will be happening before the release of TSW2
     
  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It's ridiculous how passengers aren't really gonna change for what is supposed to be a "new game". Come on dtg really. Passengers need a massive overhaul because it was just ridiculous in tsw2020
     
  11. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    The passengers in TS1 were, in my opinion, better than those in TSW2020. Maybe not in the graphical quality but some of them were using phones and had different poses. Unlike TSW where they remind me more of extras from a living dead movie.
     
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  12. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Active Member

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    tsw2020 passengers is very good
     
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  13. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    What I don’t understand is that like with so many things, all the issues that existed with passengers in TS1 have been brought over to TSW, and more problems added for good measure. Why did the devs not completely redo the way passengers were handled from the start with TSW? Why did they deal with tunnel occlusions in a similar way, then immediately leave tunnels in game that are lit like they don’t exist? You don’t see other games in this day and age with people spawning from thin air and floating above the ground or walking through supposedly solid objects, so why so in TSW?

    It seems like everything is too hard, too complicated or not high enough on the priority list. What exactly is it that they’re working on to the exclusion of everything else, because with every screenshot released on TSW2, engine update aside, it becomes clearer and clearer that it is identical to the last version. I’m afraid to say it, but the development of this game desperately needs new leadership and a fresh impetus.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  14. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    With the release of "TSW2: Covid-19 Edition", they will be able to do away with passengers altogether :cool:
     
  15. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn’t surprise me. The same genius that came up with the West Somerset ‘Diesel Gala’ to attempt to deflect people from the lack of steam engines (thinking we were all stupid enough to swallow it) would love that one!
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  16. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    My theory is that in TSW they use Unreal Engine as a base for game engine and graphics, obviously, but everything else related to train simulation, they just used the same ideas and methods as in TS1. Like as you said, passengers posess the same silly behavour, difference being that they walk and actually use station exits and entrances sometimes in TSW. Tunnel occlusions are handled the same way as in TS1. Rain drop effects on the windows? It's exactly the same as in TS1. I wouldn't be suprised if the procedural rail and junction generation uses the same methods as TS1 as well, etc.

    Of course there are things that are fine the way they are - I mean really, the procedural rail generation is just fine - though all junctions look the same, even though in real life sometimes there are high-speed junctions that look different a bit, but whatever, it's an acceptable lack of detail. But the weird passenger behavour, and the exact same rain effect from TS1 for example, is a bit lame.
     
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  17. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Nobody at DTG ‘came up with’ the Diesel Gala. There is a diesel gala every year on the WSR and I’ve attended a number of times. All the locos released for the WSR in TSW have all at one time or another featured in the real life diesel gala on the line.
     
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  18. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I know there is. My point is that unlike WSR in TS1 that had steam, for whatever reason the TSW version didn’t. Rather than hold their hands up and say we can’t get steam right at the minute, DTG’s marketeers claimed it was a Diesel Gala and, I can only surmise, thought everyone was daft enough to take it on face value as a reason for no steam. There is nothing remotely gala like about it. If that’s what a diesel gala is on the WSR, maybe that explains their financial difficulties!

    The only thing ‘Diesel Gala’ about it are the 2 diesels the route came with. One that basis, GWR was a diesel gala too.

    It was, and remains, total nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    TSW2 is just basically updates that could've been in tsw2020 but they "need the extra money" It starts to raise the question what exactly they're working on with the core game instead of making new routes. Passengers shouldn't be like this and since they've had the engine for about 4 years, they should have enough knowledge to improve passengers in the game
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  20. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    The first step on this front would be to hire character artists, animators, riggers and programmers. These are specialised roles if you want something to perform well. Then consider the feature list for what you'd want those characters to be able to do. Do you just try to stop them behaving a bit strangely? Change the way they animate getting on and off a train? Do you add luggage? Children? How about their behaviour on the station?

    Ultimately, the improvement brought to the game by overhauling passengers is in world immersion. Very important, but is it at the top of the list? For some people the answer will be yes, for others it's a no.

    As with everything else, all decisions of what to work on are based on prioritisation. We've got plenty to attend to before passenger behaviour reaches the top of the list, at which point it would be considered a major project.
     
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  21. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I meant it more in the sense of ‘why did they not just get it right in the first place?’ I find it simply impossible to believe that for a games company in 2017, the concept of creating a few realistic looking, non repetitive passenger characters that behaved reasonably realistically and didn’t spawn out of thin air or float through the sky could have been that hard.

    Maybe, just maybe the answer is in your reply. If DTG are struggling to develop this game in a satisfactory manner then hire some more staff with the requisite skills. You said it is financially successful product, and it could be much more so. How many players have been lost because they’ve dipped their toe into train simulation and have been put off but the frankly half-baked manner of so many aspects of the game?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
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  22. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    Actually... although I agree that passengers both on trains and platforms could do with work: when I compare them to the static and clumsy models that barely pass resemblance to humans, passengers that are present in some other train sims still selling relatively recent versions out there... TSW passengers are pretty good. No, not perfect. But comparing apples to apples - train sim to train sim - is there another train sim out there with better passenger modelling? I'm not saying there isn't, just asking the question.

    I agree that passengers floating somewhere, or teleporting or stuttering is immersion breaking. But pulling into a station with what looks like a set of aerofix 1960s badly painted plastic figures on the platform (showing my age) is worse. Others' mileage may vary.

    Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying everything is peachy. Just that sometimes we need to stop and consider how good we have some things compared to the other side of the fence, so to speak.
     
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  23. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree. I would say though that the new passenger models in TS1 are actually pretty good. It would be nice to see the ‘Euro Loco and Asset pack’ have the current default Kuju models replaced with the newer ones seen since at least the London to Peterborough route. I’d love to see the back of Mr Blue and Green jacket, Mrs grey skirt etc. A QOL upgrade for TS1 that is a very easy win for DTG.

    As for TSW, forgive me for saying so, but I feel that sort of thinking you’re suggesting is endemic in the design of the game. Just because the models are better than TS1 doesn’t mean they are actually good. If you compare your performance to the lowest common denominator and are satisfied to just be better than the worst, then you’re going nowhere.

    Given the opportunity to learn the lessons from many years of Train Sim development, and develop new ways of doing things from a clean slate with TSW, somehow DTG appear to have brought over many of the mistakes that existed with TS1 into TSW. The list is massive but sound problems, limited cab functionality, shadow draw distance, issues with passengers, tunnel occlusions, problems with the dispatcher, broken or impossible to complete scenarios and services, poor manuals, UI problems etc are just a few of the biggies.

    It looks like they’re taking the chance to give themselves yet another do-over with TSW2. The problem being that yet again, it doesn’t look like anything is really changing. By their own admission, nothing has been done to address many of the biggest problems with the game. That’s largely why it looks like a rudderless ship to me - DTG are once again promising you ‘jam tomorrow’ if only you’ll keep buying their DLC whilst they take another 3 years just to get the basics working.

    *edited to add* The engine update is welcome, don’t get me wrong, but let’s just hope they’ve now developed a way to do it again in future without it being such a mess. I feel there are a lot of people giving DTG the benefit of the doubt here, but should they pull this trick again in a year or two to upgrade to UE5, I doubt people will be so accommodating, usual suspects aside. For now, I’m just very surprised that with said engine upgrade virtually nothing has actually changed with the crux of the game, passengers included. What changes there are look to be minor, and amount to nothing more than tinkering around the edges.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
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  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see more variety of passengers but there are many other things I would rather they looked at first.
     
  25. SaddingtonPlush

    SaddingtonPlush Member

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    Yes I can see there's considerable history with DTG and baggage that comes with it.

    For passengers it's a matter of compromise in the end. I ride motorcycles and there is no motorcycle that is perfect for every rider - you need to decide what is most important to you when you ride it. What can you do without? It can be super-fast, but uncomfortable for long journeys. Or comfy, but not so fast. etc etc. And our needs change with experience, or at least getting older. (This is why we tell our wives we need several bikes).

    Same with a train simulator: do we want a passenger simulator at the cost of train accuracy; or do we want a train simulator at the cost of passenger reality. Or a 50/50 mix? 80/20? I understand the argument of not accepting something simply because it's better than the lowest common denominator and it's a very valid point to raise. I could say that I want it all to be totally excellent - but we can't have it all, unless we pay a fortune.

    In the department where I work we're now under-staffed, under-paid and under-resourced. So, we've reached the point where we are saying to management: yes, you can have us create that shiny new thing. But you have to choose something else to lose. It's like this with all endeavours that have multiple competing requirements (accuracy, appearance, passengers, rolling stock, locomotives, routes, weather, skies, lighting, physics, etc). Choose where to distribute the finite resources - and, by inference, choose who to disappoint and who to please.

    The aim is to please the most people. Tricky, that! :D

    Having said that, there's also the low-hanging fruit analogy and you're so right about mr blue jacket, etc. In a previous project I worked on it took very little effort to create a way of mixing up colours/size/shapes of models so that you didn't have the appearance of clones everywhere. Sometimes a little bit of effort can produce a disproportionately great reward. A variety of passenger attire, colours, models etc isn't too expensive, since 3D model licenses for this level of content aren't expensive at all.

    As for the engine upgrade I think that's a good point too and I agree about the perils of a future upgrade to UE5.
     
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  26. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Well-Known Member

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    For me I just look at a game like WOS3....years old....old engine, and whilst there passengers are not perfect, they are ALOT more realistic than TSW with a much newer engine and more advanced programming.

    Just because they walk on and off normally, you can choose to higher/lower the passenger count which effects performance and it does give a real feel to the LU whilst the graphics are not upto TSW standards, the realism is alot greater in feel/lifefulness.
     
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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I mean we get passengers spawning on the tracks on the LIRR. Passengers not boarding trains or getting off when we reach a terminating station like Hagen on rro or Penn station so I don't understand how that isn't a priority to fix passengers boarding or unboarding trains. Doesn't make sense. If it was a different company, these would have been fixed by now
     
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  28. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Even if they all got off at the end of a service would be better. There's numerous scenarios where you are taking a train out of service and there's passengers still sat in carriages when you get to the yard.
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Apparently the engine that makes passengers get off the train doesn't fully work so I don't understand why dtg wouldn't fix the darn thing. Doesn't make sense
     
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  30. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    EXACTLY as is the case in TS1. Same street, different door.
     
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  31. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Would it be possible for DTG to publicly publish this 'priority list'?

    Yes, there are people that aren't going to be happy because X problem/solution/feature has a higher priority than Y problem/solution/feature, however I think it would be good to show the community what is being worked on.

    For years DTG have been saying X feature "is on the (mythical?) list" however it'd be nice for DTG to show, say, the top 5 or so things which are a priority to them being worked on for TSW.
     
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  32. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    If I could pick one single thing to change, that would be the one. Pulling into Paddington and having people still sitting in the coaches is weird.

    "End of the line folks! Everybody off!"
     
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  33. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Well-Known Member

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    Clearly ALOT more people are bothered about this than I thought. And maybe even more than DTG first thought. Clearly being mentioned on numerous threads by high number of customers, surely this wont stay down low on the priority list? As much as i respect the replt from sam, he is just a messenger after all, I think these issues need to be looked at/worked on, rather than just thinking 'oh were rubbish at ai people so we'll leave them/we dont have the right programmer'. Makes no sense to me as I still remember Matt stating plain and clear before the release of GWE that the ai passengers have their own induvidual planned route, and they will all travel at the right times of day as theyve spent numerous hours building the ai to a higher standard. And yet three years on now with a whole new TSW theyre worse than when the game started and its not a priority, like i said in the first post, DTG can do what they want but its only spoiling the actual simulation of the game. Same with the pop up menu to open the doors, why dont we have seperate keyboard commands for door open/close left/right instead of an arcade style menu covering the screen? Because its easier to copy and paste the controls across platforms.
     
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  34. jazznsf

    jazznsf Member

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    I should clarify... there is a laundry list of things I'd like to see changed/upgraded before the ai passenger issues are addressed. What I meant by picking "one single thing" was strictly in regard to the passenger issues. If could choose only one.

    <begin rant>Top of my personal laundry list is fixing the brakes on the GP38-2 to reflect reality. A 250,000 pound engine does not stop like a Mazda Miata.<end rant>
     
  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think DTG should publish the priority list on the core features on the game and what is being worked on because I find it a joke that fixing passengers isn't a priority
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  36. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

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    The priority list you're looking for is called the Roadmap. It'll be published in the first instance before the release of the game.
     
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  37. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well considering the issues and shortcomings the game currently has, passengers really are a low priority compared to those. Sure, I would like to see them improved as well, but there are so many more important things to improve first.
     
  38. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I would have preferred the effort and time spent replacing a few distant trees on SPG had been spent developing the passengers which are more relevant on more routes.
     
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  39. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    The unfortunate truth, which I guess gets down to the root of the problem I have with all of this, is that this stuff doesn’t work properly in all the content I’ve bought for TSW, but we’ve been led to believe it was being worked on and would eventually get fixed. DTG have now walked away from all of that content, and would have us believe it’s to effectively start again. A new dawn if you will.

    If that were the case I could almost get on board with it, but it isn’t. None of this stuff is actually changing, so in a years time when we’re 8-10 DLC into the new era, all this stuff will still not work, and likely won’t get fixed. Maybe some of it will, but the party line will be ‘it’s too difficult, time consuming (or whatever) to update previously released TSW2 content, but these new features will be in everything going forward’. The customer will once again be expected to wave goodbye to what has gone before, because we’ll be told what is coming will be better.

    Something is fundamentally wrong with the way the game is being developed. We all bought into it thinking that eventually all of this would get sorted, except we’re now left with hundreds of pounds worth of essentially defunct content. Content that I’ve no doubt we’ll be expected to re-purchase going forward.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They gotta fix all the bugs in the some routes since they don't test them clearly. Passengers as well. I'm suprised thats not as high as it should be since apparently they spent years trying to perfect passengers in tsw
     

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