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Doppelstockwagen On Hamburg-lübeck

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by seblay1608, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think it's much too late to add new rolling stock to the route, which is to be released imminently. Adding fences to SEHS was one thing, new passenger coaches a whole different order of magnitude.

    I agree that what Sam probably means is that DTG have noted the volume of protest over both this, and the no-cab-car 101, and for future releases might have second thoughts about making similar blunders. Add to that the wrong-livery 101 in DLGW (while there were also protests about the 101 being there at all, repainting it would have been an easy thing)
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
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  2. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Arguably there it is a layer from a different DLC, the content in those routes are different trains, Dostos are extra (mostly from MSB), here it is a part of the DLC itself, so yes, it is a very different situation.
     
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  3. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    If we get high entry Dostos, we need this as Layer for all NRW Routes, so it want be finally Accurate in Timetable.
    TrainSim-Matt hope you Can work something about this Plan and PIS System for all :love:
     
  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yet again: layers for new locos are NOT layered into older routes.
     
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  5. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    Yes, SKA, HMA , HRR and RRO all use High-Entry Dostos. But the Dosto trains on that route are all added as layers, so it's acceptable in my opinion. Re-releasing the incorrect Dostos as part of the "Main Bundle" is not ok though, which is what they are doing here.
     
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  6. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    Not with initial release, but who knows what Adam and his team can do. They have added the ICE to RT anyway, albeit as AI only.
     
  7. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It does appear that Adam has done precisely this with RT- but said that to do it he had to build a whole new timetable from scratch, and it took three weeks to do.
     
  8. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    It's technically possible to modify the timetable to add services (I doubt when they were building the HRR timetable they thought they'd be making a BR101 for it) especially if it closely follows the real timetable or potential for future additional services is factored in when building the timetable, it's just easier to start from scratch, plus Adam wanted to completely gut the timetable anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  9. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    Is it true that the dostos are just placeholders? Has anyone written in another forum that it was said yesterday.
     
  10. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    It was just a speculation, but they are most likely not placeholders. They wouldn't release preview screenshots with placeholder rolling stock.
     
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  11. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    They need to fixed this or this DLC is a Store Holder with not many Buys.
     
  12. osiegmund9

    osiegmund9 Well-Known Member

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    Ah you are a clever one? From which source you would know that this would be the case? You are not the voice of every customer so if you dont buy the DLC it doesnt mean nobody buys it.
    Calm down a bit
     
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  13. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    According to today's Hamburg-Lubeck preview stream, the DoStos with low doors are the ones included in the route.
    The effort to model the high door DoStos "would have been too big to be worth it", at least this we were told by Matt.

    Based on the logic of reusing assets for commodity reasons despite affecting the accuracy of the route, can I consider I paid for this route (at least partially) as I have previously paid DTG for other DLCs?

    I don't see why not!
     
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  14. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    I loved how the ai got stuck on the gap and then matt fell off himself. Lmao, so THAT's why they use different dostos there irl...
     
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  15. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    The differnce being that all routes have at least some new Assets: stations, bridges, mabye more building Assets. Reusing the Dostos is like making a route without any custom Assets. As in Hamburg being bodged in place with various generic assets.
     
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  16. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    That and the 'we didn't have enough time planned for it', which they also used for the lacking cab car. That makes me feel a little let down. I understand DTG is a company, but it feels like recently add-ons (the German ones in particular), have had highs and lows. For example, with the 465 and 101 sound was really good. Yet there have also been things like the IC cab car not coming, and the wrong dostos for Hamburg-Lübeck. The IC cab car I could forgive as the sounds were good en the gameplay in HRR surprisingly good, but Hamburg-Lübeck isn't that special. It looks like AI will always have glitches trying to exit the coaches (which breaks immersion quite a bit, it's not about 'oh those coaches are wrong and I know better', its about the effects on immersion), and the rolling stock brings no new wow-factor, with both locos at least related to ones already in game. That combined with the not that interesting gameplay makes me sure I'll only pick it up on a sale.

    Come on DTG, Germany deserves something new. I don't want another near straight electrified mainline with dostos. I'd like to see diesels, border crossings, scenic amd curving railways, and diesel lines, or better yet: routes set in the past.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  17. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I expected this to be the reason for them, and to some extent I do understand, but still... If it were a different route, you would need to make a new rolling stock for it anyway. So what's the difference here? Even if they are really similar, ideally one would expect them to make the proper passenger cars, just like they would do it on any other route as well.

    Also this. The low door variants seemingly aren't even working properly here. The platform is too high, so things get wonky.

    Such a shame, because it looks like a nice route otherwise. Though I don't care as much as I'm not into germany anyway, I just don't like the principle this move shows. On the plus side, the route had other things going for it. Like personally I really liked the guard rails under and on bridges.
     
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  18. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the name of the game "Train Sim World"?
    The landscape comes close to trains accuracy in terms of priority, but it's not the first in line.

    As the lead developer, seeing the NPC bug when exiting the coach and then yourself falling down because you chose the incorrect rolling stock to use must be really satisfying and a sign of a job well done.

    Is the main game heading towards a permanent "off the rails" mode? There is no problem if it does, it's their project, but at least tell us about it.
     
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  19. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    It's not only that the locos are similar to ones already in game, it's more about the fact that they literry copied and pasted the model from their respective routes and called it a day. The 112 cab was clearly modified from the 143 based on the inconsistant textures, the 182 is basically just a reskin and all the non powered stock is flat out reused. I don't mind the freight wagons being reused as it's not technically wrong.
    But reusing everything and still nto being able to make correct Dostos is laughable and sad.
     
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  20. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    We have known that for a long time. That’s why there are so many complaints about it on the forum.
    The answer is planning. All these things are planned for a long time beforehand and the routes won’t be planned in isolation but as a scheduled workload for the year or whatever. If there is no time to make the new Dostos but the route can be made with the existing ones then the route gets the green light for production. Other routes that have been made needing new trains will have used up more of the modelling time available for the year. Had there been fewer new trains needed in other routes, there would have been enough time to make the high door dostos for this route. Or a different route could have been made that needed no new stock at all. This year we have had a lot of new trains introduced into the game and some of them will have been fairly big projects like the TGV. Everything being made needs a time slot to be made.
     
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  21. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I can understand that, but that's basically DTG saying:
    "German fans are less important, we'll put most of our time on modelling the TGV"

    Which I could understand (lets be honest, there is a lot of modern day German content already, and people wanted to see new things like the TGV).

    But then they do ask the same prices for things that took different amounts of time and effort. For me personally the route doesn't offer that much, because I already have all other German DLCs, and I won't be paying 30 euros for the same or similar rolling stock without any new features or gameplay that catches my interest. There just isn't 30 euros worth of new gaming experience in this DLC for me (in my opinion and from my position of already owning all German DLC of course). On top of that I have no particular liking for the route or trains in real life (except maybe the 182, but I already own that on RT).

    For some people this might still be a DLC worth the price, bit I'll probably be voting with my wallet this time, as DTG seems to tell us we should do that time and time again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  22. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    HHL is the route that made me realise this, but how can this make sense with DTG's policy of "standard pricing" it seems like the sort of combination that leads to poor customer satisfaction, people seem more upset for the lack of the high entry DoStos than they are happy to have 2 different coal hoppers for CRR (apologies for sounding a bit like a broken record) if that makes sense, and, after a release with 6 different rolling stock models, it wouldn't have been idiotic to think they would include a variation of an already existing coach, especially if it's so prominent in real life, it's not like 1 out of 50 coaches is a high door, rather the opposite, and at that point loss aversion might start to have an effect. I still remember the main reason I was so disappointed in LGV when it first came out was not because it was "bad", but because crucially was a lot worse than HMA, just after I spent weeks thinking about how good is LGV going to be now that they showed how good a route can be with HMA.

    This would make sense with the notion that "higher prices would not lead to better products" because prices do not represent the product, which seems a little bit strange to me, but I'm no developer or marketing expert.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  23. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I too disagree with DTG's policy of giving everything in a certain category the same price.

    That's just unfair if you're putting different amounts of effort and time into things. CRR and HHL are complete opposites in that regard, with CRR coming with 2 all-new locos, many different freight wagons and a caboose, and a way longer length with many branches (albeit with more simple scenery), while HHL comes with 1 'new' loco, a reskinned loco, and 6 items of rolling stock that have all been seen before and are partially inaccurate.

    The same goes for the BR 101 and the IC cab car, I wouldn't mind if DTG charged a little more for it if it had the cab car, as it would take more time, that's completely fair. Of course some people would like just the BR 101 at the normal price instead, but you could sell them a different pack that doesn't include the cab car.
     
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  24. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I am not knowledgeable to comment and give tips on how to improve or judge the system they use objectively, but I can tell you that I agree, I would have liked to pay more for the BR101 as well if it had a cab car, just like I would like to pay less for HHL in its current state. But we will see
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2021
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  25. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I can’t see it like that. The German routes up to this point have benefitted greatly from having almost exclusive use of the layering and substitution systems to vastly increase the value from nearly every DLC. There had to come a time when a German route was made with less value that its predecessors. US routes have been neglected for a long time and so DTG have pulled it out of the bag for them with CRR. You could see it as redressing the balance if you like. If you take this route in isolation it does offer less than other German routes but it still is a new route with new stuff to do, and it has more content than LIRR for instance, and it looks well made from what I’ve seen. Some routes are just going to offer the player a little less. People then like to know exactly why that is and if they were to find out (and I just made an educated guess) then they might not like that either. If a route falls below the level of value you would expect you can decide not to buy it but saying that one group of players is being deliberately given better value doesn’t stand up when you look at the content as a whole.
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I partially paid for this as well lol

    I don't get the logic though as if a new route is made, normally a new train would have to be made anyways so I don't get that logic if this route was in planning for months
     
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  27. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they balance it out - routes that require more work than usual costing the same as others that require less work?
    Guess we will never know.
     
  28. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that DTG deliberately gives German players less value in a route, but they have decided to give them less attention now. As I mentioned, that is completely understandable with the amount of moderen German routes already in game, and I too would like them to shift their focus to other places or eras.

    However, the decision to devote less time to this route has lead to it having less value, and DTG has chosen not to price routes differently according to the effort required to build them (for reasons I can understand by the way). But as DTG does read the forums, I'd like to explain that this is why I won't be buying it, so maybe they change pricing and production strategies in the future.
     
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  29. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    It does, but not everyone buys all routes, so for some people that is a disadvantage (because they get less bang for their buck so to say), and for others it's an advantage as they pay the same for more content.
     
  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Speaking for myself, I would go further. I would have paid extra for a complete IC train; I will not buy a partial train at all. So DTG have cost themselves at least one sale by their minimal-cost strategy.
     
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  31. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Another aspect, according to the lead developer Matt, the reason why they chose this route is due to its location (in the North of Germany) where they have not been before and they would like to offer a new breeze of German trains and landscape to TSW fans.

    What is actually new? The 112 locomotive, a bunch of assets and that's it.

    To me, this is misleading and opens the door to fraud by declaring one thing, and delivering another. See Cyberpunk.
     
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  32. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Alright, this is getting quite far fetched. Matt just said they wanted to do a new area and that's exactly what this route is. The locos might be reused but that doesn't make it fraud.
     
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  33. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    My affirmation was that they present it in a misleading way, they went to a new region of the country with the rolling stock reused, except for one locomotive.

    I said it opens the door to fraud and I stand by my saying. This is what misleading statements do.

    I am working as a compliance officer for over 15 years. I have dealt with financial and cyber fraud as well as malvertising. Currently, I am focused on malvertising and fighting against ransomware, tech support and scare-ware threat actors. I have been threatened multiple times, I have been through bribe attempts and so on.

    The point of mentioning this is that fraud comes wrapped up in ways one wouldn't imagine. Once you find their pattern, they move to another. It never ends.

    They are trying to see how far they can go with this kind of laziness/commodity. If you remember when they launched the Diesel legends pack, it is another example of trying to sell existing stock. They even said publicly that it is an "experiment".
     
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  34. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    What have they said that is misleading?
     
  35. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I can tell you that one of the reasons, if not the biggest one, is that they had done that route already in TS1 and they got pretty much all the source material they need to build it for TSW2 without going there again. Of course we have the covid restrictions and I understand, but they could just be straight with it as they did with some of the previous releases. Then, they are selling you stock that is pretty much a repaint (Taurus) of what you might already have as new. There is no rolling stock that is 100% new.

    You know, they are not lying to us but they are not being 100% straight either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  36. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    In that case;
    1. Where did they say rolling stock (when referring to the Dostos, 182 and freight cars) has not been reused?
    2. Matt said in the stream one of the reasons they chose this route is because it was popular in TS1.
     
  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    if they wanted to do a route in the north of germany, perhaps they could've done the Hamburg S-Bahn Instead
     
  38. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    A person that was not engaged in the forum discussion, nor is watching live streams and is going to buy the route can turn out disappointed when he/she discovers that the main passenger coaches are incorrect for the route.
    Take for example a person living in that part of Germany that eagerly wants to drive the train in which he/she commutes to work.

    In the field of intellectual property, making use of a brand that the vast majority associates with something and using it to sell content that is not true to that brand is considered misleading.

    I am aware and I understand that there are other locomotives and trains that use the route besides the ones included. From this total pool of trains, they chose the most common, the most representative one for the period. So, they should deliver it.

    It's not like anyone forced them to chose the rolling stock, they chose it in their own internal meetings.
    But maybe they chose the route exactly with the purpose of reusing as much stock as possible in order to maximize the amount of money gained from developing them.
     
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  39. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    1.- Let me know if that goes into the Steam or console description, which is the only place most people will look for it. Remember, they are not lying, just not telling all the truth.
    2.- Well, yes, but he did not mention that covid limits what they can do. That's why it is misleading, and not a lie. He told part of the truth, but not all of it. You can listen to it again here.

    Let me add another one:
    Here you can hear Matt saying that "fundamentally from the outside, the coach looks exactly the same" (about the low and high door dostos). Is that misleading or not?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  40. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    But don't forget that the route on TS not only had the correct dostos included, but the BR 218 mainline diesel loco as well. That loco alone would have made the TSW2 version worthwile, as we don't have a german main line diesel yet.
     
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  41. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Neither one, since what it amounts to is a statement of opinion. Whether the two "look exactly the same" or not is entirely subjective, which takes it quite beyond the law's sandbox.
     
  42. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I also wonder if he would dare to say something similar when comparing different british mark coaches...
     
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  43. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    No, because he also said "They're still gen 4 dostos" which are the ones on the line irl. It's more like a mk2a compared to a mk2b, rather than a mk1 to a mk2, where there are massive and obvious visual differences.
     
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  44. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to take legal actions against them. Just saying that last summer we were told we would not get more of this kind of behavior, it had somewhat improved for a few months and now it looks to me we are slowly moving back to the old ways.

    It seems DTG can't do release streams right without Sam.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
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  45. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    would you fall in between the platform and the wagon when trying to exit the respective other british coach?
     
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  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I'm not quite sure which behaviour you're addressing here.

    While I concur that Sam is better at it, the stream is not this route's biggest problem.
     
  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Hence why I think sam should be on every pre-release stream moving forward. He seems to ask the harder questions
     
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  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If someone took legal action because of this, that would be funny but also stupid at the same time
     
  49. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    No, because British coaches, unlike German ones, are all built with the doors at a standard height. They could make a purely cosmetic change and have you able to walk through the middle of a mk2b where a door would be on a mk2a - that would be the closest comparison.

    I don't think so - if they really were going back to their old ways they'd probably just completely ignore the issue of the Dostos entirely and not bring it up on stream. I'd be fairly sure if Sam was there instead of JD, we'd get exactly the same answer.
     
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  50. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Using the 'wrong' DoStos has an impact on the gameplay, as you are not able to leave the train in a proper way, when you're going as a passenger. So, it's not only a 'beauty mistake' , but a bug that harms the game
     
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