I might not be popular with this, but it's time for the broader community to perform a self-checkup. I am disappointed in the quality of recent releases, therefore I'm not buying anything. I even often blame DTG. But let's put that aside for a second: things release in this 'state' because we, the community keep buying inferior DLC's. DTG is not the problem, but a symptom. The problem is us, the community. They increased their prices, and it seems that didn't prevent people from buying new add-ons. They don't really do loco DLC's anymore, with Acela being an exception. They re-sell already existing models with different liveries and small tweaks, e.g. the heritage pack, the TSW3 loco add-on bundle etc. for £9.99 and £11.99 - and the community still buys them. Old bugs are still present? The community is happy to pay. They include modern cars on a route that's set in the 90's, with no PIS - they get away with it because they know, you, the player will buy it. I don't even want to mention NY-Trenton, the topic is now 30 pages long. Point is, that since this unacceptable quality sells well, they are not going to change this behavior. They will try getting away with as much as possible, giving them more time to work on the next DLC (churning them out quicker than ever). And the next DLC after that. Rinse and repeat. On the other hand, I don't think this business model is sustainable for long, just look at the reviews of their latest releases on Steam. You have to scroll a bit to find one where the reviews are 'Very Positive'. As long as we don't vote with our wallets, this is going to be the quality. No ifs, no buts. It seems this is the sweet spot: while new releases ship with tons of bugs, the numbers still look great. Fixing more bugs pre-release would eat into profits, so that is not an option. The only option is to fix 'some' bits to calm the community, but the patched product is still not great. Releasing content in an even worse state is also not an option, because even those who are not really familiar with railroads would see the obvious bugs. Result: this is the optimum for them at the moment, based on sales figures. Simple as that. And of course, some might say the quality and functions have improved. Well, I also expect my salary to go up compared to 2018... Is it good enough? Definitely not. Just look at reviews. They don't lie.
From the screenshots in the roadmap stream, it seems, as if the cars have been changed to older models ... https://www.youtube.com/live/DUBWRKkk6PA?feature=share&t=894
Some of my favourite all time games have had incredibly negative reviews. I've come to learn that other peoples opinions are worth little.
You're right. The out-of-the-box 250 services spread across 90 odd kilometres is still a concern though, as Mainz-Koblenz will probably feel as empty as NY-Trenton.
It's ok if you like something that some or most people do not. It really is up to the individual at the end of the day and all reviews are one's opinion
I assume the OP won't be purchasing any further content then and won't appear in a few months moaning about the DLC he or she has just purchased. If I like the look of something I will purchase it, if not I don't. I am more circumspect now with buying DLC but I still enjoy TSW and get a lot of fun and relaxation out of it. I personally don't find it anywhere near as bad as some do on this forum but I wouldn't say it is perfect either. I am certainly not going to join any anti-DTG revolt.
I’ve cut down my DTG spending massively and my Rivet spending completely. I can afford it fine. But I don’t think it’s worth it anymore. For context if you take the price in Swiss Francs and convert it to UKP. It’s roughly £40. The quality just isn’t good enough for me. 2 examples that irritate me the most. 1) The dostos on Rapid Transit have even broken for as long as I can remember. 2) Luzern Sursee was broken with a patch and has a red light bug on a lot of services. I reported it almost 6 months ago and Jasper said he could recreate it and would update me. Nothing since. So I’m very much voting with my wallet. I’m not stopping playing. I’ve got loads of routes already. I still very much enjoy the game. But unless things change (and I have zero expectations that they will) then new purchases are going to be very limited.
Sounds like cutting your nose off to spite your face. I'll continue purchasing routes, locos, game play packs and anything else DTG if I feel the content justifies the price asked. But at the same time I'll continue to point out my views, flaws and weaknesses on routes whether I've purchased it or not. Just because Trenton wasn't to my expectations doesn't mean I'm going to stop buying a route which matches them. But you do you, just don't expect everyone else to follow you.
The op hit the nail on the head. All the time people keep buying it, dtg are gonna keep selling it! I personally haven't made a purchase since Edinburgh to Glasgow. That was the final nail in the coffin! The last dlc I actually was looking forward to was sos and dtg wrecked it. I could download tsw2 and play it with out the nuclear lighting but wait, its still not fixed in tsw2! In the same style as sky TV. existing customers go f yourselves.
I wasn't aware there was a problem but my debit card is ready and waiting for all this luscious new content coming our way. Take my money now DTG. Seriously though, there are some long-standing bugs that should have been fixed by now but I haven't encountered anything yet that has harmed my experience to the point I wouldn't buy anything else. If you don't enjoy the experience then don't buy any more but most of us are enjoying the game and are going to keep buying the content. All I see are a very small minority with very unrealistic expectations.
A few things I wanted to clarify: I do not expect anyone to follow me. It's an opinion only. This is also not an anti-DTG revolt. Just tried explaining why the current state of the game as it is. I guarantee one thing: this is not because they didn't hire talented programmers, artworkers etc.
Its always the same story and do it ever result in a good solution? I guess DTG doens't read this kind of topics.... If they do they can noticed always the same story over and over
If you're a PC player and you want to keep giving money to DTG and have an enjoyable, relatively bug free train experience, consider TSC.
Doing that right now. I really like some of the older TSW content e.g. Tees Valley, Ruhr Sieg Nord, but the quality went downhill - would love to enjoy it again, but not with trains running with pantos down, open doors etc. TSC does this way better. I would be interested in new content, too, provided the quality is better.
Even if you like a route and don’t want to boycott it completely, not pre-ordering and not buying on the first day will make a difference both to you and the company. You are not gonna get a buggy disappointment and the company are gonna realise they need to get moving with some patches and fixes. Maybe even next time fixing stuff before it’s released. If you can hold off on the excitement you may even catch the route in a sale later on down the line when it’s received all its fixes, additional layers etc. I find it’s a much more satisfying experience.
I’m tired of all the excuses (usually running out of time) as to why a DLC is hobbled. I’m tired of patches failing to do what they’re supposed to do, or causing new issues. I’m tired of the time it takes for ‘promised’ issues to be fixed. I’m tired of getting my hopes up for something, only for them to be dashed against the rocks. I’m tired of DTG ignoring feedback and making the same mistakes over and over again - seemingly learning nothing, despite assurances that they are. I’m tired of getting just good enough instead of excellent. I’m tired of DTG kicking loyal customers in the teeth - how long can you keep doing this? You can only kick a dog so many times before it gets the hint. I’m tired of DTG carrying on regardless.
I find it best not to even hope or expect anything. Judge each release on its merits and condition. Some of the DTG routes have been very good recently, Cross City, SEHS and the revitalised Boston route. Of the four upcoming routes, the two I am almost certainly purchasing full price are the two third party routes. I do think they are trying to fix the bugs and they have shown an improvement in that regards as far as I am concerned, although some like the silent AI steam engines seem to be taking an interminably long time. My main complaint is the scope of the routes. Ironically the routes I should like the most are the least played, the routes I should like the least get the most use!
What I find hopeful, though slight, is a person like Brandon who does work for DTG, yet is not paid, continuing to work on the routes he has done and make them better. Boston Sprinter is the prime example with him fixing the signal/safety features and now he is starting to work on the timetable, which will make this route even better. Do wish there were more like him addressing other routes.
Look closer. It's not a small minority (perhaps in this forum it is), but look at the usage numbers. Way down from TSW2. People are voting with their wallets and have walked away from this franchise about 6 months ago. But if you like the content then yes keep buying it all up (I wouldn't be surprised to see another price increase at some point). They'll need all the support they can get to make up from a large percentage loss in customer base.
I suspect you are correct, DTG may simply ignore the many threads like these as they bury their heads in the sand. They have put the bare minimum effort in listening to their customers in the past so why start doing it now?
So is an unrealistic expectation is to expect a product to work as intended out of the box? Is an unrealistic expectation is to expect something that is advertised like realistic sounds and authentic routes too high of an expectation? When it is advertised that a route has a realistic timetable is it too high of an expectation to expect said route to have a realistic timetable? Is it too high of an expectation to expect even the most basic features of the game to be on a route at launch? Is it too high of an expectation to have a patch fix something and not break something else?
My own personal experience with Boston Sprinter of late is quite different. Bit of a disaster zone with the doors not responding properly driving from the MBTA cab car, passengers simply morphing through the closed doors to alight. Oh and the bugged Amtrak 66 empty stock move which, if you do manage the workaround puts you in a carriage shed with see through walls!
That's the reason why i'm writing this reaction! DTG has his own scedule and a lot off users have no clue how to build a game and what kind off effort is putting in. So there is in my opion 2 sides at this story... It's not only DTG that's ignore people but there is also a point off things thats been asking that will never happen. 90% off all suggestions at the suggestions forum is totaly not possible to create. Otherwise the repairings and fixing is now at the moment not as good as we can expected so there a 2 tiles at this story.
I’ve stopped playing TSW completely and am totally done with it. I get virtually no enjoyment out of the game anymore because all I see whenever I play it are bugs, errors, omissions and problems. Some content is almost unusable, things that used to be good are now broken, and most TSW2 content is borderline redundant. I will not entertain playing L2B for example because the connecting door on the 375 is always open. I mean seriously, WTF are they playing at?!! The list of problems is endless. On the flip side, since before Christmas I’ve spent probably close to £300 on 3rd party Train Sim Classic content. These expectations that we keep being told are unrealistic for TSW are realised with so much of the content available for the ‘old game’. The level of, and attention to detail surpasses anything that has ever been achieved in TSW3. With the recent Signal and Weather EP’s from Armstrong Powerhouse, Train Sim Classic now not only sounds better, plays better, is more realistic, more customisable, has vast amounts more content available for it but now, beyond any shadow of a doubt, looks better. It was AP’s mission to respond to the new skies in TSW3 and he’s blown them out of the water. I freely admit I’ve spent a lot of money to get it to where it is, and it currently needs a powerful machine to get the best from it, but what I have in front of me right now is night and day better than TSW3. With TSC and MSFS I’m afraid TSW will never get a look in for me, and will remain forever full of potential but woefully executed. If I could get a refund for everything I’ve spent on it I’d take it and never look back.
I keep encouraging DTG to make more loco bundle to give more variety in gameplay. I don't care if it's only a small changes in model/only repaint. As long it is look good, i buy it.
Maybe DTG regrets TSW and is doing everything it can to finish it off without saying they’re stopping development? Increasing prices, reducing quality, annoying loyal customers who are no longer buying as much as they used too. Building a loco pack and only adding a different colour stripe to an existing trainset - a stripe anyone could add in livery designer (if they so wished). I just don’t understand why they’re being so blasé about everything.
Agreed. I think it goes back to the OP. Vote with your wallet and don't try to convince others to change their minds as each has their own perspective. It is unfortunate that (especially for consoles) this is the only type of game out there. I tried Train Life and it's ok as an arcadey game, but was too clunky in practice for my taste. So I understand the passion for people who want it to work well and just be better. But at some point you need to realize months and years are passing and the same messaging keeps coming up from the community. People have a breaking point and just need to face facts and move on. It's as good as it's going to get. Or was as good as it could be and started going downhill. These threads for me are entertaining to laugh at as I feel this franchise has become a joke. I fell into the "hope and pray" game for a while after TSW3 launched, but have come to realize after these 6 months that it is what it is. DTG can add me to the trash heap of lost customers. You can scream "do better!" until you're blue in the face, but a brick wall has no ears and you just need to eventually walk away. On the other hand if you like the offering, keep supporting your hobby. This is a niche market to begin with and becomes even more so every passing month.
I'm in the camp of not being a day one purchaser. Though I was tempted with Edinburgh - Glasgow as I was so eager to get this new route. On the live stream preview it looked amazing! How i'm glad that I didn't. Reading all of the complaints on how bad it was. It made me wonder if the version being played in the stream was the same one that was put on general release? Surely all the bugs should have been picked up during the routes pre-stream practice session? I was so disappointed! But hey! Good news.. The new roadmap is released, Rivet and DTG have taken all the bad reviews onboard and it's all going to be fixed. Great I can finally go out and buy it. Luckily when I get paid seems to fall two weeks after releases. What a relief that is! Out comes the new patch, and in come all of the usual complaints. So still I'm waiting! Watching the latest live stream, it suddenly occurred to me.. Matt said that they talk to third party developers to set the standards. Bingo! That explains the E-G's farce. Do what we do, release it and just tell them it's being fixed. It's our Standard. Rivet releasing a new railtours with a modern up to date model of the Jubilee. Great! Waste time shoving a load of pretty lights on it, instead of using the time and resources to bring the West Cornwall Local route up to date. Seems that the DTG Standards are well and truly implemented? I just so hope that these standards aren't part of the new German routes. I strongly suspect that they will be in the Peaks Forrest and the Midland ML though! Until DTG change their policy on fixing their products prior to release. I will not be a Day One buyer!
The biggest problem is DTG's extremely fast paced release schedule. They have the talent and ability to make things perfect out of the gate (I think) but that is somewhat spoiled by the fact that they seem to constantly be rushing out releases. When you think about the amount of work that goes into getting a route built from the scenery to rolling stock to timetable... and then look at the fact that we practically have been getting new DLC every 1-2 months. That pace means often things are coming out with less polish than they should. Trenton timetable for example. Then bug fixes and repairs are sporadic. Some routes get patches right after release and then seem to be forgotten about. Other routes (i.e. BML) get heavy attention and everything from constant bug fixing to entire new timetable additions well after release. On the flip side the community is constantly demanding new content. Everyone is always demanding more info and release dates on the next new route. And buying it of course.
I agreed! And the point is that DTG have a small amount off timeslots to release content on the console part. They comfirmed earlier that updates are more difficult to implement into the game due to lack off this slots by sony and microsoft. Steam is excluded thats a total other system.
This is why I've stated in other threads, that I wouldn't be bothered if there is only one or two releases per year. At least then they will have the time to fully develop, test, and fix. But instead all they are interested in, is getting the money rolling in. I honestly feel sorry for Matt and JD, Being in the front lines they are the one's that get bombarded with all of the flak.
I'm voting with my wallet from now on. I've gone from I need this route, to I want it but not at that price or the state it is in. I know dtg have schedules to keep, so does anyone running a business. Although I normally stick to a schedule, my customers are more than happy to wait a little longer for me to finish the job properly, rather than it be done on time but unfinished.
They complain on the forums and spam poor reviews but they still buy DLC's the very first day they come out.
Better is to understand "is this a route that have potential to fix" For me its very clear the route from Rivet is a absolute NO... the NEC have potential to fix the bigger issues... How do i calculate this? It's a difficult feeling my advice... first try the route and feel of this is matching youre expections. Youre not required to buy.
I think you must be playing a different game to me. I don't experience any of those issues. In terms of timetable realism though, its never going to be 100% as its simply not possible on the busier routes without negatively affecting performance. The timetables as far as I can tell are as realistic as they can be but its always going to be a balancing act for them with juggling performance limitations with the number and variety of services. So yes, its unrealistic to expect realistic timetables as its a game, real life doesn't have console users and low spec PC users to worry about.
I don't know the peak usage figures for both games but I do know that many of my Steam friends have finally made the jump from TSC to TSW3 and are loving it. Prices haven't really increased that much over the last decade (including TSC) so I wouldn't be too unhappy with another small price increase.
All time peak for TSW3 is about half that of TSW2. And even with small daily users, TSW2 still attracts 25% of the number of daily users of TSW3. But I'm not saying people don't like TSW3. There is a population out there that can look past its performance issues and other technical problems and have a good time. It's just that that number is shrinking.
I have been a avid supporter of TSC but since having a rennaisance with TSW I find TSC even with the enhancements is starting to look quite dated next to TSW. However for steam period and BR blue content TSW doesn't even get close so it isn't going anywhere, but my usage of it has gone down. If TSC had service mode, still with the ability to run what you want and where that would be enough for me to never spend another penny on TSW despite its lovely graphics. I doubt we will see a price increase in the coming year or two, I personally would be unhappy if there was one as I think £30 is just about okay for what we get, if it is something I want. I would expect longer routes or more trains to be included if it went up further.
If not a price increase then a lot more of these nickel and dime skin packs. A version of micro transactions for this game. Keeps the cash flowing from people who may not want to pay full price for a route, but may just say "ah it's only $15" and pick up one of these funny things.
This thread seems like a more indirect way of blaming DTG. But yes, let's take a look at ourselves. We all still buy stuff, because we really don't care that much about the quality. I mean, if it's something you like, unless it's been butchered in every way, you'll pick it up. Let's face it folks, we all have, we all do, and we all will. Voting with the wallet is a silly way of getting a point across because there's too many people that will undermine it. To put it into perspective. If we were all real life railway workers, and we went on strike against our bosses (DTG) for better working conditions (DLC Quality), and then they proceed to hire other workers to do our work whilst we strike (aka strikebreaking, and in this case it's the silent majority who won't vote w/ the wallet), we would get nowhere. We are getting nowhere. Let's be honest, we all know the price increase wasn't necessarily to fund TSW. We have to remember that Dovetail are constantly hiring workers, developing Train Sim Classic, the Fishing Games, and the new CATAN Console Edition. And they'll soon be publishing Tram Sim on consoles. On top of that, Inflation went ballistic in 2022. The worst DLC so far this year appears to be Edinburgh - Glasgow; which, of course, is not a Dovetail Product. And I think it's fair to make that assessment considering we've now had 4 DLCs, and have seen a fair amount of 1/2 others already - if you prefer to upscale it to TSW3 in total, the only thing poorer than it are parts of the SEHS route which are relics of the TSW2 Version. The problem isn't Dovetail (as a whole), and the problem isn't us; the community. The problem is, and has been for god knows how long, that DTG rush themselves into arbitrary deadlines*, which end up hindering quality and piss people off; which causes threads like this. Nothing against yourself, OP and Responding members, however just generally criticising them doesn't do nearly as much as a conclusive list of issues would be. *Said deadlines could be nessacary to make sure the budgets are practical, idk. Mainz-Koblenz and NY-Trenton have the same issue; lack of stock. Mainz brings us into a new (or, old, technically) era which we haven't seen before - the closest was Bremen - Oldenburg; which was still in the DB Red times. Niddertalbahn is at a very similar time period and (might) offer a 628 layer to Linke Rheinstrecke, as it layers stock onto Niddertalbahn. New York - Trenton has the misfortune of only having so much available to it. One loco for NJT, one for Amtrak, the Acela - sold separately, and then the cab cars. LIRR stock could have (should have) layered in at NYP but it's hardly the end of the world. NYT doesn't have a BML-tier timetable, however the stock (which I imagine would be far more diverse on such a route) doesn't help the case. Cheers.
Do you have these new EP’s? With those and the new(er) content TSC (which is streets ahead of the older stuff) knocks spots off TSW. That v2 of the weather pack is a total game changer.
It seems all the people who insist they've given up on this game still come to a forum where the only thing there is to do is talk about the game they have given up on. Seems like odd behavior tbh, unhealthy even. But each to their own, a world of other entertainment and opportunities to pursue, apparently a world of stuff much better than DTG or TSW can do, and yet.... It's this forum so many of you always hang around. Curious, that. Brings to mind the image of a child telling their parents they are running away from home, and when the parents say "OK bye", the kid runs back to them, because it was only ever the theatre of it that mattered, the early attempt at emotional blackmail that most kids learn at that moment doesn't work. Well, here we are 900 threads later and the message hasn't quite sunk in yet. Ah well, nevertheless. DTG has for many years gone back and forth with its attempts to respond to the numerous versions of this thread and the open letters, and I suspect now they're just immune to it, because dear god, it is astonishingly easy to vote with your wallet, fantastically so, it's as easy as just not doing something, and what's more, you can do it without having to announce it, and yet... And yet, it seems like every single time someone has voted with their wallet, they've wanted to share that here, and 1 year later, two years later, they're still here, popping up on threads insisting this is the one they're going to boycott, yes I said I'd boycott TSW3 but I got it on sale, oh yes I know I said I wouldn't buy anything from Rivet but the reviews were actually good. Should I list the TSW content I haven't bought? Will that mean I voted with my wallet, or that I just did something people do every single day of their lives, and not bought something that I didn't want? Do I get a medal for this valiant act of defiance? I heartily agree that anyone who does not get sufficient enjoyment or utility from this game should not be buying it, the same goes for literally every other product on earth. Thank you for alerting people to this basic and common practice.
Well, I was here for the TSC forum but still get notifications from threads I’ve posted in over here. Just because I’m sick of it doesn’t mean that in future, if it shows significant improvement (ha!) I wouldn’t look again at it. In it’s present state, and with the trajectory it’s on, then no. The only way to gauge how things are with it, however, is by postings here.
I have got RW Enhancer 2, the track pack and the original weather pack. I haven't got the latest weather pack at the moment or the signal pack. I do think TSC looks good but I do have to say I find now that things just look a little more real in TSW. I am still playing around with RW Enhancer 2 though. However you can't drive a class 86 between Euston and New Street in TSW or haul a train of bricks from a long closed brickworks on a long closed branch line in a long gone pre grouping engine in TSW so TSC isn't going anywhere yet. However I personally now am of the opinion that TSW does look better, something I would have argued against vehmently six months ago. It is likely that I have spent so much time with TSW lately and little in TSC that I am noticing it particularly.
