Dtg: Please Don't Draw Wrong Conclusions From Gwb Sales

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Task, Mar 5, 2021.

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  1. Yes, but not Diesel Legends of the Great Western.

    52.0%
  2. Yes, I also plan to buy Diesel Legends of the Great Western.

    33.8%
  3. No, I'm not interested in gameplay packs at all.

    14.2%
  1. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    You communicated multiple times that the sales of the Diesel Legends pack will heavily influence whether there'll be other gameplay experiences in the future.

    So here I want to tell you why I won't buy it but in the same time I would like to see additional gameplay packs in the future:
    First argument is I don't like historical stuff, I only want to drive modern stuff so the gameplay pack is of no interest to me.
    And the second point is I mainly drive German stuff, I'm only interested in a small portion of British content.
    Because of these both points I'm not that interested in the Diesel Legends pack.

    Now I also think there are many other people who think that way and I really hope you don't draw wrong conclusions when the sales for the pack are low.

    I would be really happy to see reworked timetables on some German routes like MSB, RRO or HRR. Especially now that we have trains like the ICEs, ICs (soon) or the Talent 2 from SKA.
    I would happily pay for say a renewed gameplay experience on RRO that also includes the ICEs, ICs and Talent 2s running on this route.

    So please consider what I wrote here today if the sales for the Diesel Legends pack aren't as good as expected. And if they are: Even better, now do something modern German ;)
     
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  2. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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  3. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely love your proposals. Those are excellent examples of a timetable pack done right. Though in fairness, the U.S. lags behind in terms of railroad infrastructure development, so I think that is partially why it is easier to imagine a Chessie or Espee pack for the modern routes. Still, excellent proposals. Thank you for sharing.

    Cheers
     
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  4. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the results of this thread will lead us down a slippery slope. It seems like you are enthusiastic enough to pay for reworked timetables with rollingstock that has been included in newer routes that have released or have been created as loco DLCs. I would also be willing to buy a product like this if it ensures that we will have a REALISTIC level of service pattern in timetable mode in DLCs like LIRR. However, I fear that this will send the wrong message to Dovetail Games. For one, it gives them a convenient excuse to create an absolutely barren timetable mode (something akin to Bakerloo or LIRR), and then later charge extra for a "full" experience. This is something that I do not want, and something the community should push back on. There's a familiar saying, "give them an inch, and they'll take a mile."


    What's next after the timetable, passenger information systems being separate DLCs, AI passengers being DLC, seasons being locked behind DLCs? We should rather push for Dovetail's Preserved Collection team once they're done working on livery designer support, to start looking at timetables. After all, almost all of their routes feature marketing terms like "Extensive 24-Hour Service Mode Timetable (LIRR)" or "Experience a full ‘day-in-the-life’ in Service Mode, which features the recreation of an entire 24-hour timetable based on real-world activities (Rapid Transit)." The experience of those two routes' timetable can be argued to be the exact opposite of "extensive" or "full day in the life."


    There's also this misconception that people won't buy this pack because it's not popular. I don't see this being the case. I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who are willing to look past the modern structures of the route and ignore the time period the route takes place in. This pack gained criticism because it is not realistic in any stretch of the imagination. Simply put, it looks like a lazy cash grab. All of the rollingstock is recycled, and the most iconic train to run along the GWE during DTG's imagined setting, the class 117, isn't even included. If you're going to do something like this, I would most certainly expect a Class 117.
     
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  5. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Here's my opinions:
    The services are very interesting and look like they'd be fun, however, I won't buy it for the simple fact it doesn't look right since GWE is a very modern route, and the GWML in the 70s looked barely anything like the GWE DLC. I simply think GWE is the wrong choice to pioneer this. Something like EWS 66s and ex-Northern 142s (down the line if/when we get a 142 if they insist on it only being stuff already in the game) on Tees Valley, I'd be all over that, because there's not that much difference between TVL in the late 80s and TVL now, in fact it's really just yards having been reduced in size - plus, pacer hype.

    I can honestly say this now, if they had backdated GWE to the 70s and put this timetable on, I'd buy it so fast I'd fracture space and time.

    I absolutely love the idea of gameplay packs, but I don't think it's been executed correctly here. In any case, £15 is way too much (if I were to repeat what I exclaimed when I heard the price I'd be banned) if we're not getting something new.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  6. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Its several hundred services (I think) put into a timetable mode which equates to a fair bit of time in the game. Is it for everyone probably not, is it worth the money who knows? I will probably take a punt as the seeing the Western thrashing along was enough to get my interest going.

    Its only a bit of fun guys isnt it?
     
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  7. Ben_Broomfield

    Ben_Broomfield Well-Known Member

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    For me, the Diesel Legends pack doesn’t cut it. Seems to me like something to bring a update to GWE due to the ‘lack’ of attention that the routes had in terms of new improvements/enhancements.

    Yes, there may be a nice load of timetable services & scenarios (which I do like) but for me it’s gotta be a realistic enough environment for me to get immersed and enjoy it, period.

    I would most likely buy the pack IF GWE was updated to the era the ‘scenario pack’ is representing. For me it doesn’t sit right, especially when I see so much potential with GWE from a modern standpoint, especially inline with ‘gameplay packs’. I’d much rather see a route upgrade, to futureproof the route as a whole for ‘future’ content. If this is DTGs way of trying to revive/do something for GWE then again, it doesn’t do any justice for me.

    I know people will not mind the modern OHLE, signals and modern environment that GWE has, but for me, the route has to be inline with what the packs offering, just as a basic requirement.

    It’s trying to make GWE be something it ain’t; overall resulting in lack of immersion & a overall lack of enjoyment (personally).

    However, I wouldn’t mind seeing ‘gameplay packs’ on routes THAT fit in line with what the pack is trying to represent. Such as a present day pack, on a present day route.

    Again, just my personal opinion, although I really wanna see something more for GWE as a whole. This personally doesn’t cut it.
     
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  8. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    For the price i rather spend my money on a full route or at the very least a new add on loco i don't already have.But if dtg had tried this as a trio of new steam locos(Have had they had any yet)Now that might have raised a few ibrows of real intrest.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  9. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Would they bother doing this for modern content. It seems to me to be a way of getting some interest out of older period content without making new routes or stock! For someone like me I worry this sort of pack may be the only way we will see content from this period in the future.

    I haven't voted as it would have been nice to have the option:

    Yes, and I might get diesel legends in the future if some adjustments were made (even though I suspect that is very unlikely).
     
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  10. Nidhish Inumala

    Nidhish Inumala Active Member

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    What they should do is make different eras for routes (I.E. a retro HMA or SEHS and a modern NTP or maybe even GWE)
     
  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    For a modern NTP you would have to add AWS/TPWS.

    Also if they can't make a new train for this pack (a class 117) then they couldn't make a modern pack without making new trains as none of the modern trains in TSW are suitable for the NTP! And if they did I will be revolting!

    They could reskin the class 166 into transpennine livery but they would never have an unrealistic train on a route, not on your nelly, no way, not in a million years, never in the history of TSW will that be allowed to happen.
     
  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t want DTG to make their mind up on one pack they had put together. That’s a dangerous thing to do. This one has enough of a difference to the original but it also use a lot of artistic license in the choices of train. It might turn out to be a roaring success but early feedback might suggest otherwise. Packs that offer something more modern than the original might do better but there are the same compromises to make with how routes will have changed. Currently there isn’t anything in TSW that could make a more modern NTP for instance but if there was, would that do any better I wonder? There might not be enough trains in TSW to effectively do another pack like this anyway, and it could be some time before there is.

    There might be similar issues if they were to make something new for a route set in the wrong era using dual timetables. That might turn out to be a bigger experiment than one using already available trains. These packs would likely be more expensive than Diesel Legends if they were to make new trains as well as a new timetable. It could be that a second timetable with new trains would be £20 which is almost as much as a route. That might go down worse than this pack has so far.
     
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  13. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    I would be more interested if the pack contained at least one new locomotive/DMU, given that it costs more than a loco DLC; but even if the price were pushed up slightly more as a result (let's say $25, regular price). There are a good number of classic British locos already, and I feel that if a new train -- which could potentially add new timetable layers to older routes, or at least be utilised in livery editor -- it would have provided a better feeling of value.

    Not to say that there aren't people who think this is a good value. However, I'm personally not interested in it without a hefty sale.
     
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  14. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I still think it's probably too early for a pack like this. I don't think there is a wide enough array of content yet to make the idea of making packs like this, based primarily on existing content, work as well as it could, for now at least.
     
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  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What you are talking about would mean in effect building a whole new route. Routes can't be simply reskinned like rolling stock.
     
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  16. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    If there is no new route and no new loco included then it cannot possibly be worth £15 or the equivilent thereof. The whole concept needs to go back to the drawing board and lose the rationale of we had nothing to do so this is what we knocked up in a few months please pay a price between a loco pack and a route pack...

    DLC for DLC for DLC, priced in the middle of all the DLC, but not marketed at people who have every DLC because they already have these trains...nope. Every pack should provide one or more new locos, not a reskin, if it has a route too then great. If not, then it is £12 as long as it contains at least one new loco.
     
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  17. Vanhalen1

    Vanhalen1 Member

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    The class 101 DMU is a good unit, but a class 117 would be far better and accurate for the GWML out of Paddington.
    A class 50 and 47 in Large loco would be good to.
     
  18. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a good idea because the pack would include new scenarios , different time table , tutorials. and have a different experience to the regular time table service.

    But it's the execution of the trains in the pack that needs to be successful.
     
  19. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Old or modern it depends what the pack includes. If this had given us a 117, a Class 50 and a Class 42 Warship I would indulge regardless of the era. But a few reskins of existing stuff which can be emulated by creating an off the rails scenario, ain’t going to cut it.
     
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  20. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I very rarely buy loco DLCs anyway as they offer little value to me (although I will make an exception for the 1938 stock for personal nostalgic reasons). However, if they were to combine it with a route extension or makeover in the case of “classic” era trains, I would be up for it.

    I realise that there is more work but, for a 70s makeover of GWE, the basic structure of the line and the stations are in place. Work would be needed decorating and in some cases remodelling stations and, because of this, I would expect the DLC to sell for more than the £11.99 most locos cost. I would suggest £19.99, somewhere between a loco and a full route price.

    If they were to add, say, the branch lines off of the GWE main line, then, yes, full route price would be justified in my opinion.

    I don’t subscribe to the old argument that it would only appeal to owners of the original route and so lowers numbers of potential buyers because this applies to loco DLCs as well (certainly the GWS pack).
     
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  21. Phil78

    Phil78 Active Member

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    DTG's conclusions on how the pack has performed will boil down to one thing and one thing only. Money.

    If the sales pay for the development costs and the returns are profitable, it's a no brainer that they'll make more of these kinds of packs. If the sales are low, it costs more in wages to develop than it recoups in sales and development of more traditional DLC content proves to be a more efficient use of development time and resources, no matter which other nation's routes they could try a similar idea with, they'll bin this kind of DLC pretty quickly.
     
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  22. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling the LU 1938 stock add-on will be similar to this for the Bakerloo Line, giving it a separate timetable only with '38 stocks. If so, yeah, I'm all in, I will probably buy that. These timetable packs are a great idea, if executed right.

    But I do agree that the way this Diesel Legends pack is, it's not the best. They could've at least thrown in BR Blue HST or something. I think that would be nice and period correct with the other trains in the pack, right? And they already have a HST without the GWR lettering in the game files, so only a resking would've been needed.

    Long story short, this pack might have not been the best executionwise, but hopefully they will try a few other ideas as well, as it has potential.
     
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  23. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    A class 47 and 50 in large logo blue would not be accurate to run with the Western. They would fit in with the class 101 which is in it's 1980's state.
     
  24. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The HST was introduced on the Western region in 1976 or 1977 so at the very end of the Westerns, certainly the majority of the Westerns in the pack were scrapped before the HST's came into service. They also wouldn't have been running showing headcodes then either. The HST would look better alongside the 47 and the 31 rather than the class 52 really.
     
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  25. heardturkey

    heardturkey Active Member

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    Not quite as easy as that re the HST. According to Matt on the stream: it would require a completely new model. Different body shape, slightly different cab, completely different sounds, completely different passenger interior. If they fudged the 'unofficial' HST and just re painted it, how many howls of rage would be coming from these forums where the slightest rivet out of place causes such appoplexy.
     
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  26. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I remember seeing a Western at Leamington Spa in 1976 on a Birmingham to Paddington service, but that was probably an exception by then. Most were in the hands of 47's or 50's or sometimes pairs of 31's - the old New Street "circular" that ran out from Paddington via Coventry and returned via Shrub Hill and the Cotswold Line frequently produced...

    Sorry for the nostalgia burst!
     
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  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Maybe more bursts of nostalgia on these forums would have lead to a different outcome for this pack!
     
  28. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Would I be correct, though, in saying once the 50s and HSTs came in, the Westerns and Deltics were relegated to the "I'm sorry, this is all we had in the sidings" trains, or were they still doing the main express services until the HSTs made them redundent?
     
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  29. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    The idea of this is sound but the choice to rerecycle 3 locos already in game and not put the slightest effort into making the route look time period correct and charging waaaaayyyy to much for so little difference,hurts this cough cough new dlc enormously.dtg trying something new isn't a bad thing but unfortunately this is.But maybe the'll still learn something either way.
     
  30. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I'm still unclear how deleting assets (the ohle) is basically the same as redesigning a route?
     
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  31. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Looking forward to see a Diesel heritage day on WSR as gameplack
     
  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    If that were all it was, no. But most of the comments in that direction are of the "making the route look time period correct " variety, which would indeed require a wholesale rebuilding of most buildings and even a lot of the track. You can't simply reskin a route with a basic paint program.
     
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  33. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I think the thing is, removing the overhead lines would then lead to the question of, why does the track look new and, if they changed that too, then people will ask why are the cars new, and then why the stations aren't period correct, and then why the houses are too modern. When would it end? Presumably when the whole route is completely period correct, which would take almost as much time as an entirely new route at which point the entire point of the pack will be lost. Even once that's done people would complain of DTG spending their time remodelling an existing route rather than creating new ones.
     
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  34. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't WSR supposed to be taking place on a diesel gala day, which gives them an excuse for no steam engines?
     
  35. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    True. I think the issue is that the 70s are too far back. I think they could've gotten away with it a bit more if the 101 was in NSE, and the 47 in NSE/Intercity, and perhaps even the 166 in NSE (with different headlights), plus we'd have something new - the only thing we have in NSE livery is a 2-car ex-tube train, and we have nothing in Intercity Swallow. Perhaps a lack of HST would raise a few eyebrows though.
     
  36. Ben_Broomfield

    Ben_Broomfield Well-Known Member

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    I know that it would require a whole dedicated route just for that and understand the potential ‘hassle’ that may cause.

    Hence why I say that modern day ‘gameplay pack’ would of been much better, given GWEs period it’s representing. Rather than a period that isn’t reflected in the route itself.

    Again, just my personal opinion.
     
  37. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Don't know, but it would be awesome. For the next year I do not expect enough steam engines to have a steam gala day ..
     
  38. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    A lack of a HST in a late 80's/early 90's pack would cause a forum melt down. not having a HST in such a pack would be like having a 1970's pack for the GWML without it's main train for local services the class 117 and that would never happen......oh wait!
     
  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It was supposed to be diesel gala, that is what it was marketed as, frankly when it came out it would be the boring diesel gala known to mankind. Even now with the extra trains I feel the timetable is sadly lacking for a diesel gala, it feels no where near busy enough. I haven't been to a WSR gala but the ones on the Gloucestershire and Warwickshire and Severn Valley Railway are much busier.
     
  40. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Train fans who bought this game want to drive as many different and various time period locomotives as possible and pull or push various passenger and frieght wagons as well.But with dtg doing this kind of pack by including probably the 3 most weakest and least cared about rerecycled locomotives,it's no wonder it's getting so much flak.(Plus without even a single new locomotive included it makes this pack lack any sence of excitement or interest to those who want to see what next and new.)
     

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