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Dtg, Please Don't Interpret This The Wrong Way.

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by nielsmallant100, Mar 11, 2021.

  1. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    I had a feeling from the start that a pack that just brings scenarios to the game while using already existing content was going to be a tough sell. This is a 24 hour timetable for a route already available (and in the modern era still too) with locos available on other routes. What do you get in any new DTG route? A 24 hour timetable. This is a total money grab, and I can understand they might be trying to make TSW more profitable, but it's this kind of content that gets the community up in arms. They push the line with this questionable content, will walk it back with better content in the next few releases, only to push the line again.

    If they made some changes to make this route unique, more time-appropriate, and included this content, then it would be a lot more appropriately priced (or even a possible sell at a normal route price).

    The Sim UK video is also highlighting the larger issues we are seeing with streams, Matt, and the leadership at DTG. This was a money grab idea thrown together, and it's clear the Senior Producer had little interest in the content, the bugs, and actually making this fun for users. I have to give Sam credit for calling this out as it is, it was refreshing. Also, I'm not blaming Matt here, these are challenging times and we all have our individual challenges we deal with on a daily basis in our lives. When developers become uninspired by the content they produce though, the motivation to make it the best it can be drains away.
     
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  2. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    It's refreshing but also a little odd. It's very unusual to see a company bagging out aspects of their own product before it releases....usually that is left to the youtubers / streamers to call out. I'm just not sure what kind of message that sends out tbh
     
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  3. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    It might be odd, but feel like its needed. Ultimately at the end of the day, Dovetail want to sell you something, and you want to aquire gameplay of value and content (bug free, fresh experiences, variety and affordable.) Nothing wrong with that so far.

    However there have been plenty of moments where DTG have rushed out a product without thinking that content through... and then somehow waffle/convince themselves that it's all fine (biggest examples I can think of are WCML, OSD, Rapid Transit DLC.) Sometimes you need someone to tell it straight.
     
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  4. Typhomat

    Typhomat Well-Known Member

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    Lets be realistic here, it's weird because if this was not so publicly displayed, and was in a company in another industry, Sam most likely would be fired. He must be aware he can say things and push the limits because removing him would only make them look bad. It's one of those things where if he was brought in to really press the issues, and they figured it would benefit them because it makes them appear more transparent, moments like this make it backfire big time. When you have the power in your own job title to publicly make your employer look bad, you might not pass up on making the most of it within reason and ethics. In this case, he destroyed Matt's credibility even if that wasn't his intention.

    Though Sam appears at times to drink the tea, and he has to straddle the fence of the fan base and DTG, he seeks clarity (though he has walked back from his original yes/no mentality and really pushing for honesty). He has to call things out as it is, and point out that things aren't bad. DTG in this case taken the risk of rushing this out, releasing it after the success of the 465 and before Rivet's second route, trying to maximize the profit of the release. He is calling them out on it (even to a passive degree).
     
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  5. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    And so does Sam, he is clearly getting annoyed with Matt and Matt is getting annoyed with Sam for expressing how he feels.
    I must also say they have wasted vital resources for some low res trains that we already have in game, that don’t even run on the route and the 313 development could have been speeded up with the extra ‘manpower’
     

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  6. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't ECW semaphore signalled up until the 2000's? The totally incorrect type of signalling would, for me personally, be too much of a immersion breaker.
     
  7. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    The other issue you’re bringing up is you expect them to redo a whole route just so you can live it as if it were the 1970’s. It’s never been marketed as a new route and that was never their intention. Yes it might seem a bit immersion breaking to have a 70’s timetable running on a modern route, but this is a simulator and therefore there are some compromises to be made and Matt and his team have had to make certain decisions, which we might not agree with, in order to give us this experience. It’s good we’re getting new content for an existing route. Also about the development of the 313, it’s a separate team and Matt’s team needed to do this while not giving the other teams more work to do. I know it’s not what you want to hear, but that’s what seems to have occurred. Hopefully during a lull for other teams we can get extra content for this add-on as an extra, like an era-appropriate HST and not get it as yet another paid loco add-on.

    I get the feeling Sam has his DTG and customer hats on in streams, so he’s actually both with us. It’s good to be connected with the community, although I don’t see tensions between Sam and Matt on stream. I see friendly banter between them.

    I’m not defending DTG in any way whatsoever, but I do know about the job they’re doing and it’s not easy to get us a game like this. It’s better to give them the benefit of the doubt and allow them to do their jobs. Although feedback about the quality of routes, etc is valuable so it needs to be balanced.

    I’m just saying that we should think about the work they are doing to enable us to fulfil dreams we have..
     
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  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Personally I am not so worried about the route being the wrong era, although obviously it would be much better if we could have a route more in fitting with the era of the pack. I certainly never expected the route to be altered although at first I wondered if the big secret was an era changer, it has been done in other sims but might not be at all possible in TSW.

    I would take the correct DMU over changes to the route as that is a more glaring issue, for me personally.

    I haven't seen any tension either to be honest, maybe a couple of moments of slight awkwardness but that is about it.
     
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  9. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Active Member

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    Same for me, except the usual touch of bad-cop-vs-good-cop-game... (I like these little "tension" between the two, even if as a non-native speaker I certainly don't get every joke).
     
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  10. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I get the feeling this was a last minute decision because an unexpected lull in development for the gameplay team turned up in their schedule. Yes it might have be cheap to reuse the 101, as it wasn’t regularly in service on the line, but it’s also an extra train! Who knows the locomotive team might come up with an approiate DMU for this route or a different route and they can sub in for the 101. It seems like they could only do this with limited time and resources.

    Again not defending them, but just trying to eee it from their point of view from my understanding of their public comments on the matter.
     
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  11. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I understand that, I understand their position (apart from the livery of the unit) although I will never be totally reconciled to it and I never expected a new DMU, it was just a forlorn hope, but, certainly not expected.
     
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  12. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I will wait for a sale and buy it to support the idea.

    Personally, I'm not interested in '70s british traction, but I'm very keen on seeing some new things, like turning the trains around at Paddington, and dreaming about how this could influence future routes and loco DLCs.

    Even if it was clear from the beginning this pack was created just to have a quick and small profit using as little work as possible, it has some great potential, particularly if done right, with more care, time and thought spending it making a worthwhile DLC.
     
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  13. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Fair enough, totally understandable. I think that’s it. I think people will like to play it, even if they’re not totally reconciled to it. It’s a good way to add extra gameplay for us.
     
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  14. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Matt did say in a München-Augsburg preview stream that one of the German routes has a timetable built before the introduction of ICE services. Maybe this could be added now with this core update? Having a separate timetable with ICE services would be nice. I would think this could be done fairly quickly, if the DB BR403 runs on the route.

    Also I think GWE was selected as its the most popular route. So is a good way to guide them.

    Personally, I like the idea but not currently in a position where I could use it for now.

    I would also think doing the Javelin service during the Olympics would be nice to add to SEHS.
     
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  15. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I agree it has great potential and I was/am all for it. However, that does rather beg the question as to why it wasn't done to a satisfactory standard in the first place. From what I have read about the pack there are several errors/bugs, not withstanding the inaccuracies regarding hotchpotch of stock included and with layers added.

    In the past I purchased add-ons for TSW which were not "up my street" as I wanted to support DTG no matter what, in many ways I still do, but this pack for me has been quite an eye opener, that historical accuracy does not appear to be of importance, therefore I will not entertain purchasing this pack. When this pack was announced, despite my reservations I was extremely pleased at the concept and the fact they were offering a proper 1970's add-on pack, well, it isn't!
     
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  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Um, no. BRB was done by the gameplay team to give them something to do, specifically NOT using the loco-modeling or route-building teams (who are plenty busy).
     
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  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    This point can't be emphasized enough. Although, to be honest, the concept would have been more consistent had BRB come out at a lower price point; although one could argue it's a "loco DLC" for users who don't have NTP, WSR or TVL, they are re-used locos so no development time has to be recouped, and the price should have reflected that. 7 pounds/10 dollars, maybe.
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    A company wanting to make money? Whatever next? That's almost as bad as people wanting to be in love when they get married! How very dare they...

    I mean why don't they just not put anything out unless it's got new trains and new routes. Why do they think people want to do more things with what they've got, let alone pay for them!

    DTG are obviously just cash grabbing zealots who shouldn't be in business
    </sarcasm cancel>

    DTG aren't in business for the good of their health, they're a company trying to do what they can to make sure that the software they develop makes money, that they can pay their entire team to keep developing things and of course keep this website and the official YouTube streams coming.
    And to be honest, a few quid (in my terms) for a brand new scenario and timetable set isn't too bad considering I can pay £50 for some gems on other games which wouldn't give me hours of play
    Maybe the community is spoiled when they get three locos, 40 route miles AND a timetable for £25 (but of course some people moan about that too)
     
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  19. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    This is exactly my thinking as well. It seems like sections of the community are against DTG trying to do new things but then want DTG to try something new. To be fair, the base game and add-ones are already cheap. DTG could rack the price up to be on a similar level as other titles but then people would complain there too. It seems like DTG are stuck in a corner and whatever they do will attract criticism, despite them listening to the community in the first place.

    Certainly on console, the pricing of TSW2 stands out as not being expensive compared to some other games.
     
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  20. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But dtg have made recycled content in ts2021 before so this is not their first rodeo in this.
     
  21. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    In fact, come to think of it, this kind of DLC with the bad times is not that rare.
    In case of all the games or even the sims of cars you have this kind of "old-fashioned" style DLC with old cars on today's circuits and no one complains.

    I might make enemies but I think we might be asking too much, right ?.

    For my part I did not take this DLC, it did not interest me.
    I generally prefer to buy "full" DLC, ie one road and at least one train.

    In short, an old loco on a new road is better than nothing at all ....
     
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  22. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that DTG is stuck. They recognize that a small percentage of their customers will tend to be disappointed with DTG no matter what DTG does. DTG also knows that other customers still enjoy playing certain routes and locos in spite of various issues.

    I'm simply glad there are employees who (hopefully still) love making these routes and locos, and love playing the game themselves, in spite of any non-constructive criticism or toxicity generally directed at them.
     
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  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well I played ts2021 and that has scenarios and a free roam only. I have bought scenario packs for that game as well and they are fun. I get why they tried to bring that concept to tsw2 but the difference between both games is that it appeals to two different markets. One is a PC exclusive market, and the other market is console and pc. 2/3s of the playerbase There was a thread asking people if they wanted scenario packs and personally I voted no. Concepts like these isn't what a console market is really used to because yes games have dlcs, but it isn't like dtg where it's dlc after dlc after dlc over and over and over. It worked in ts2021 but it was gonna be a tuff sell here especially if it's content you already own. DTG weren't not even 100% sure who it was marketed to themselves. Yes it was never advertised as a new route and it was not gonna change the looks of the route but had they decided to make the route unique, make it look and feel like the 70s, and added the more common train, they could've probably gotten away with the current price and maybe even charge the standard $29.99 route price because the overall idea was good.

    Now I did watch Sim UKs analysis of the pre release stream and the stream itself and whilst I did like Sam calling out the dlc and some issues of it as it is (even though if this was a different company and he said some of those things, he probably would have been fired) Matt on the other hand really didn't seem to care and just brushed off any people's complaints and even the bug at Reading where the stop marker doesn't go to the end which I was suprised about. Matt is a passionate train fan but as a senior producer of the game you should show any potential customers of the product that you acutally care about some of the issues and concerns of the price instead of laughing and shrugging it off like it's nothing. That's just not professional
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  24. Agent Qracle RUS

    Agent Qracle RUS Well-Known Member

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    Everything was obvious from the teaser itself, but nooo - we will stubbornly pretend that we do not see or hear anything (I about dtg)
     
  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well nobody complains that you could take a old style car in a racing game such as a ford model t or a 1960s le mans car to a modern circuit such as Circuit Of The Americas, Homestead Miami Speedway or the Bahrain International Circut because you could actually do that in real life on a track day if you acutually wanted to. You wouldn't add a lirr m7 to Munchen-Ausberg because A it wouldn't run on that route in reality, B it wouldn't be able to move since it's powered by third rail, and c it doesn't run on that route in reality. You wouldn't put a ice 3m on the bakerloo line timetable because A, it wouldn't fit in the tunnles, B it wouldn't be able to get power to move since it's powered by overhead wires, and C it doesn't run on that route in reality
     
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just did a quick scan on PS store... loads of games have DLC including GTA V, Sims 4, minecraft and many more, so I think the console market is very much used to DLC packs

    The rest I agree with
     
  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If we compare gta 5 to let's say ts2021, ts2021 destroys gta 5 in terms of the amount of dlcs it has amd at some point there will be a gta 6 and gta 5 will die off. GTA 5s dlcs wouldn't carry over to gta 6 like how gta 4s dlcs didn't carry over to gta 5. TSW dlcs will just grow and grow to infinite numbers
     
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  28. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, but then people who spend a few hundred on DLC want to be able to keep using them. The main difference is that people who play GTA may not view it as a form of hobby, whereas people who play simulations often do. Either way the DLC concept is familiar on all platforms
     
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  29. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The dlc concept is familar but the sheer amount is different
     
  30. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    I am very happy to see DTG bringing new things to the game, but if they want loyal customers to open their wallets they should provide some real perceived value. It all seems rather cobbled together and half thought out, with little regard for accuracy of region or time period (if it's blue stick it in). I really don't blame people for accusing them of money grabbing, but as it's blue I will probably get it eventually in a 50% off sale.

    There is another recent Sim UK video out there which I won't link to here, that has a real go at DTG for their apparently undisciplined coding structure. It accuses them of creating way too much work for themselves by copy and pasting code instead of focusing on a more object oriented approach, for example having to update each route with new skies when they could all link to the same new sky. He goes though the latest roadmap stream and on the positive side, does have some kind words to say about Adam.
     
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  31. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    [QUOTE = "tallboy7648, post: 268982, member: 17487"] Eh bien, personne ne se plaint que vous pourriez prendre une voiture de style ancien dans un jeu de course comme une Ford modèle t ou une voiture du Mans des années 1960 sur un circuit moderne tel que Circuit Of Les Amériques, le Homestead Miami Speedway ou le Bahrain International Circut parce que vous pouvez le faire dans la vraie vie un jour de piste si vous le souhaitez vraiment. Vous n'ajouteriez pas un lirr m7 à Munchen-Ausberg parce que A il ne fonctionnerait pas sur cette route en réalité, B il ne pourrait pas se déplacer car il est alimenté par un troisième rail, et c il ne fonctionne pas sur cela route en réalité. Vous ne mettriez pas une glace de 3 m sur l'horaire de la ligne bakerloo parce que A, elle ne rentrerait pas dans les tunnels, B elle ne pourrait pas obtenir de courant car elle est alimentée par des câbles aériens, et C ce n'est pas
    I agree with you, but we are not in reality but on a game do not? !!
     
  32. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I did watch sim uk giving his thoughts on the roadmap and he did work in the tech industry and was a dtg beta tester so he seems truthful. It does appear that dtg seem to try to go around problems and just copy pasting instead of fixing the core problem. I could see that because for example the preserved collection skies doesn't yet have the new tsw2 skies. You would think if they are moving content to what is supossed to be a better package then the old content should get graphical improvements at launch. Had they had a object oriented design which they dont, there would be no need for adam to add the tsw2 skies one by one thus reducing their workload greatly and could focus on other things. If you have similar trains like the Rapid Transit Talent 2 and the SKA Talent 2 which are similar in many aspects. The improved ska talent 2 aspects like destination displays could go to the rapid transit talent 2 if they had a object oriented design. If they had a object oriented design, ska, rro, hrr and rsn whould have gotten working pis displays by now since the tech is pretty much the same for german pis displays and wouldn't have to do them one by one thus saving dev time



    Here's a link to sim uk's video if you want to give it a view. It's an hour and 43 minutes long though
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    This game is a simulator according to dtg and they say tsw is a simulator that has "Authentically Replicated Routes and Locos" so as a simulator it should simulate the driving experince of trains in the correct routes they run on in whatever period it's set in and the environment should feel like the year it's set in as a simulator. You wouldn't add a 313 to sehs or a 465 to east coastway in the timetable mode because that would be unrealistic. You wouldn't add a m7 to ska or a ice to bakerloo
     
  34. zawal.belili

    zawal.belili Guest

    Yet that's what I do, TSW2 for me is a game.
    Besides, the scenario creation mode allows us all that, so yes it's a game not reality, if you absolutely want to have reality in the game you are going to have a bit of trouble I think.

    I noticed that everything that came out on TSW was systematically denigrated by a handful of bad people.
    Do not take it for yourself of course, but still I find that if it does not go in the direction of some it is not good ....

    I wonder if I will not stop coming to this forum, I find that the atmosphere is degrading.

    In the end, as DTG says, 90% of people do not come to the forums and fortunately because with everything I read here the poor would be completely crazy !!

    There is nothing good in always "rotting" the game, it doesn't help matters quite the contrary, I think the DEV team must be fed up with all these complaints. (Even if they tell you opposite )

    It takes criticism of course but it is relentlessness I find.

    I remember at the very beginning of TSW1 matt and company was happy, it was seen on the lives and now I see that they are not really anymore.
    The weariness of always repeating the same things to the same people feels doubt because of their joy ?!

    in short, I would still think TSW is a game and I would drive 300 instead of 20 if I want to ....
     
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  35. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    You speak of that as if you know there are only pros and no cons.

    Perhaps there are good reasons for DTG to code things a certain way?

    I seriously doubt their management says, "Well X is a terrible design pattern, but lets use that approach rather than doing things a better way."
     
  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I specifically meant timetable mode. Nothing about scenario off the rails mode. If you want to add a ice 3 to bkl you could do that but it wouldn't make sense to add it in the timetable for realism reasons. DTG even say it's a simulator. It has sim in the name of the game mate. Also people who critize the game are not bad people whatsoever. Everybody is entitled to their opinions as long as it's constructive
     
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  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I did mention a con of this design in another thread but I'm not gonna put it here. It's called "Have DTG gotten themselves in a out of control situation in the pc part of the forum. I gave a much longer explaination on that thread then in this one. Maybe you should watch sim uk's video if you have time
     
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  38. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. Matt said in the stream that the gameplay team was basically just sitting around doing nothing while new routes were being built. They were on the clock anyway, and thus set to work on the multiple timetable system. Essentially, they had nothing to lose, because the employees were presumably being paid regardless of whether or not they were working. Selling the Diesel Legends pack for even $1 would technically provide a net profit over them not making it at all, unless the employees were all paid hourly and could be dismissed for the day/week until they had regular work to complete.
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If they sold the pack for a dollar that would make many happy I think lol.
     
  40. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    If it were a dollar, I'd buy it without hesitation. Even at $5-10, I think it would still be a good value for what it provides, and I would probably bite.
     
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  41. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I understand their reasoning for doing it this way and the need to take time to get each route updated.

    As for preserved collection, that was the point. It was set in stone almost so it could be brought over to TSW2. It’s going to take time to do this and they are recruiting but understandably that’s difficult at the moment.
     
  42. mattw#8380

    mattw#8380 New Member

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    Please fix the 'All change' scenario on PC. At the end, at Reading... 'Unload Passengers' is not possible, so it's not possible to finish scenario. There's more detail and others having same issue here.... PC - Diesel Legends - All Change Scenario | Dovetail Games Forums

    Anyone got a fix, or having same issue?

    I don't mind paying for the content, even though I own all routes and add-ons as I appreciate some work goes into it. Also, it does seem to be much better value for those who don't already own half the assets. But i do at least expect it to be QA'd and work ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  43. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe $10-15 is a good price for the value but $22.99 for what it gives is not worth it. Also like you said the people who made this had nothing to lose since they were just sitting around basically with not much to do and getting paid regardless
     
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  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Although personally I think that 7-10 pounds ($10-13) would have been a better pricing strategy according to the classic maximization curve (practically Newton-inna-vacuum elasticity here), ultimately no product on a market is "too expensive" in isolation according to some Platonic form of a divinely-ordained pricing scale. Each individual consumer makes that determination for himself by buying or not buying the product.
     

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