Dtg, Quality Policy

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by breblimator, May 14, 2021.

?
  1. yes

    139 vote(s)
    84.2%
  2. no

    26 vote(s)
    15.8%
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  1. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I insist on extensive and comprehensive explanations
    EDIT only a survey - comments are unnecessary / or mandatory?

     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  2. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I will keep updating this thread until my curiosity is satisfied. I will take sarcastic excuses as deliberate spite. greetings
     
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  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, unless things change I am declaring a moratorium on buying any more DTG content. Not simply the condition of HBL, but also the "patches" to LIRR and RT which fixed a few things but broke more- and the eternal delay to the patch release having been excused, for weeks, as "QA testing" (hahahaha).

    Fortunately, I suppose, neither HBL nor Cathcart Circle interest me very much. But I will be taking a (very skeptical) wait-and-see approach to Rush Hour (three routes for the price of one looks like a good deal- unless it's three buggy, unfinished routes). I need to see affirmative evidence that something has changed. Open and frank explanations of what the ruddy blazes has gone wrong would be a first step.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  4. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I was going to buy the Hamburg route, but after reading the threads, I will hold off. I have so much unplayed German stuff anyway, so I don't need it. And I also don't need yet another suburban emu route, so Cathcart Circle isn't on my wish list either. I guess I'll just wait for Cane Creek and BPR, hoping for the best. As for this survey, I understand your frustrations, Breblimator, but, in all honesty, I think you may be spitting into the wind. I doubt you'll get any explanation beyond the usual placative gestures. Good luck amigo.
     
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  5. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I think I'll do the same. When Arosa was about to release, I wanted to buy it. Then it released and was a disappointment, so I didn't buy it. But then Clinchfield was really good, so I thought I will buy it when the LIRR update released and I get back into TSW. But if this was the LIRR update, and I'm expected to enjoy LIRR in this state, then TSW2 won't stay on my hard drive for very long this time either...
     
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  6. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’ve been a loyal DTG customer since discovering TSW 2020 last year.

    I’ve bought more or less everything new on Day 1 of release, handing over my hard earned money each time. My DLC collection is extensive.

    However, since SEHS, I have not bought a new route on Day 1 and I no longer intend to do so.

    It’s a tough decision, because I love trains and I love TSW 2 on the whole. However, I really feel that DTG is taking us a bit too much for granted and we need to stop them doing so by refusing to buy stuff on Day 1.

    We know DTG can deliver superb quality, but for whatever reason, too much crap is being turned out of late. Poor decisions are being made and staff are clearly not being given the time to do their best work. I don’t blame those working on the game directly, as these people are clearly passionate about what they do. I place the full blame on management and until management realise that they are, one release at a time, destroying the reputation of the company, absolutely nothing will change.

    Sadly, in the year or so I’ve been involved in the forums here, there has been no indication whatsoever that management give two hoots about the consumer or are doing anything to stem the increasing amount of negativity.

    Now that Mass Effect Legendary Edition has released, I’m taking a break from playing TSW 2, but I’ll remain an active member of the forums/streams and I remain excited for what’s coming up. I just hope all the exciting new content/updates arriving in the summer aren’t a total let down, but I just know that it will be (because nothing has changed).

    EDIT:
    DTG really needs to move away from its current position of telling us not to buy something if it does not meet with our expectations. What sort of message is this? It should be telling us to buy everything because it’s so good. DTG knows by now what the community expects. It either works to meet that expectation, making every DLC better than the last, or it throws in the towel. But the shear number of repeated bugs and issues is beyond parody at this point.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  7. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Ever heard the saying of 'First impressions are everything'?

    Well this really shows how much quality control has gone into their latest route, Hauptstrecke Hamburg - Lübeck.
    A quick glance at the Steam Store page shows it currently standing at 46% positive reviews. Clicking on it for further information and reviews, this is the first thing I see. Not filters applied.

    It doesn't really inspire players to purchase the DLC when this is the first thing you see, does it?

    DTG - WAKE UP. Listen to your players. Listen to feedback. Listen to suggestions. Listen to reviews. You reputation is quickly going downhill again.

    Something needs to change, otherwise a lot of players won't bother purchasing any new DLC as it is becoming increasingly rushed and sloppy.

    upload_2021-5-14_21-48-37.png
     
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  8. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    While I‘m still hoping for answers on the next roadmap stream, I have no illusions that everything will suddenly be peachy again after that.

    The update shouldn‘t have been shipped in its current state. If this quality is truly what Adam was so excited about, then my excitement just dropped significantly.

    Hamburg - Lübeck seems to be full of bugs in addition to the pre-release criticism. I was considering getting it before, but after reading the forums and seeing the release stream, I have no current plans to buy it.

    What‘s most sad to me is that we appeared to be going in a good direction. CRR was excellent (even though it has issues that should never make it in a shipping build like the missing banking comm) and the following release of the 101 was just as good. Then, this mess happened.

    I don‘t think I‘ve ever seen so much frustration and irritation in the forums since I‘ve been an active part of it. It is my hope that DTG notice this as well and realize that right about now would be a good time to maybe up the quality of shipping builds.

    Rush hour concerns me at this point. It is a good deal and getting a section of NEC again will be lovely, but the German route features a lot of preserved trains. Seeing how the new MRCE 182 has the exact same bugs/issues as the DB 182, I fully expect the new Br 143 to still have the issues of the RSN one.

    For me at least, DTG built up a lot of trust and goodwill with their new openess and by talking about internal issues. Putting together Adam‘s crew also helped. But that trust and goodwill can easily be lost again. Am I being overdramatic? Perhaps. All I want is for DTG to take our feedback into account and act on it. With any luck, this is just a bad time in their release history and not a new norm.
     
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  9. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    After all the money we have given them over the years they owe us an explaination. How could something like this happen?
     
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  10. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    I wish you good luck.
    Already tried with graphic stability and wind sound Without any success :D
     
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  11. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Well Sam hinted at fixes being a main topic in the upcoming roadmap update, so I am interested in hearing what their view on the situation is.
     
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  12. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    You said comments aren't necessary, personally I think they are...

    I'm really, really interested to see next week's roadmap stream. I'm not even mad right now, I'm just disappointed TBH (yes I pulled that cliche phrase out). I was rather lucky, before the updates, the only real problems I had with LIRR was the horn audio vs. window and the messed up ATC, but I could live with it.
    I've only tried it a couple times, but LIRR got WORSE for me. I pulled up a service and no traction audio except for very quietly in the middle of the train. I'm glad the thing where when you head eastbound out of the NY Penn tunnel you're not rerouted on to the opposite track just to be rerouted back has been fixed, but now you get a ATC 15MPH limit like half a mile from Woodside. I gave up after that. There's areas where trains are clipping platforms, in the tunnel, which I remember a few instances, but I don't remember it being this bad. I rarely play Rapid Transit b/c I hate the Talent 2 and don't own the 182 so don't have much incentive for it, but how the things I've seen in other posts have slipped through blow my mind. It almost feels like they "accidentally" released the build from before it went through QA/testing.

    But to be completely honest, I really didn't care about the LIRR updates. I was waiting for them to get out of the way so the MSB fixes could come out, and in particular the 146 and 185 audio. I think since MSB was brought to TSW, I've done maybe 5 things on MSB and don't even try to run them on other routes b/c the audio problems make it impossible. But now I'm actually scared MSB and the loco fixes will come out in a worse state than before. We waited, what, 8-9 months for this, including an extra 2-3 months b/c "things were backed up" and this is the state we get them in? That really doesn't give me hope for future fixes and releases. And I hate saying this too b/c the passion of Adam and Matt toward this game really does come out when they appear in streams (since they're the two that regularly appear), but the end product really doesn't match up. There's a disconnect somewhere... *cough* management *cough*

    I wonder if that's part of the problem with the issues on HHL b/c there is a lot of German content in the game and I wonder if they've just done so much German stuff that they've just zoned out and didn't realize they were implementing things wrong. I mean, placing 1000hz magnets instead of 500hz shouldn't happen on the 8th?? German route.

    I honestly feel we're slipping back to pre-TSW2 DTG. Yes we have the roadmap, yes there's better communication, but that feels like it has been walked back since last year. Lot's of bug reports in the Technical Reports part of the forum, yet no acknowledgement. There's the one roadmap stream where Sam said he was going to have the CMs mark a post as helpful once they've read it, and so far Adam is the only one I've seen do it. Most people when they report a bug, want confirmation that it's been acknowledged. It's like writing an email to customer support, never hearing anything, and then seeing on their support page "your email was read, we just don't reply."
    Saying "we read everything" doesn't reassure me, especially when a year passes and there's no updates/news and a million other reports push it to the back burner. If you're not going to do a formal bug list, provide us confirmation, either with a reply "thanks for the report, it's been passed on" or just mark it helpful - it takes 2 seconds, if that.
    People pointing out glaringly obvious issues with new coming products only to get a response of "oh well, it is what it is." I, and I suspect most of the community, don't expect perfection, but with as much reference material as DTG claims they obtain, surely they can come up with a better explanation than that if they needed to change something from reality. Get technical with us, many people will understand it. And those that don't, someone will be able to make it make sense.

    Like I said, I'm anxious for the stream next week, as I think the way this is all addressed is really going to set the stage for expectations moving forward, for better or for worse.
     
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  13. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    It's about time we get an insight on how these things can happen. Expect my support until I get banned for spamming or something
     
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    At least the preserved team preserved the audio bugs in this update for the M7. I guess that's why they are called the preservation team. To preserve already existing bugs into patches :)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  15. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    Comments are definitely necessary, without them it not clear why people voted the way they did. And ultimately comments drive the message home to the devs. Never restrict free speech, constructive criticism should always be valued. The subject you raise needs constructive comments and feedback.
     
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  16. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    A little edit, especially for You, my brave freedom-fighter :) BR o7
     
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  17. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    One of the problems is for me, is that the route itself is stunning, it’s a busy commuter line, with a mixture of stopping/semi-fast/express services. But there are far too many bugs creeping in that really shouldn’t be by now!

    Some of the stations are beautifully modelled, Hamburg Hbf, Lubeck Hbf, Bargetheide and Kupfermuhle deserve special mentions, they are stunning!

    The PZB bugs, are unforgivable, this should be basic by now, as it ruins the immersion completely, having random emergency brake applications.

    Similarly there was a service to Bad Oldesloe, I got stuck at a red at Kupfermuhle, for no apparent reason!

    Visually, it’s a beautiful route, really surprised me, but the PZB bugs, really have let this down.
     
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  18. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    :love::) I love you.... :love:

    I've never been anyone's freedom fighter until today. Small things, I know. Okay, enough, should I organise a room? Or a draughty shed as it's a train sim? :love:

    If I've overstepped the mark, sorry, you touched a nerve. I was once savagely attacked over a flag, would you believe.
     
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  19. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    There's a bit of a repeating pattern in the quality of the releases and the community's response to them...

    East Coastway -- fantastic
    Oakville Subdivision -- meh
    Haupstrecke Rhein-Ruhr -- meh
    Munich-Augsburg -- fantastic
    LGV -- meh
    SEHS -- meh
    Clinchfield -- fantastic
    Hamburg-Lubeck -- meh
    Cathcart Circle -- ??? (probably meh)

    Maybe it would be worthwhile DTG looking into why those routes that are well-received are, and why two out of every three releases are met with disappointment and criticism.
     
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  20. DruidsNectar

    DruidsNectar Member

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    Wow, if your observations are correct, and I'm not saying they are not, then if I was a dev, then I would be looking to hang up my hat. I think there is a very strong point here, when you develop a sim like TSW there are two main aspects:
    1. the game engine (the game environment), how it behaves, physics etc
    2. the content, the locos, rolling stock, routes etc
    You can be good at all aspects if you have the resources. If you have limited resources you have to pick and choose what you want to develop. If recourses are really limited, then you concentrate on the engine and and farm out the content to third parties.

    If you are stupid/short-sighted/greedy you attempt to do it all in house with limited resources and make a pig's ear and annoy your fan-base.
     
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  21. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it is a lovely route! And I’ve already run some services that are truly excellent. However, I don’t want to begin recommending them until the bugs are fixed.
     
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  22. ASRGT

    ASRGT Well-Known Member

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    Cant say i agree with that part, to each his own but besides the odd model that's well done the overall route detail is sub par and does little to capture key landmark buildings or even represent the correct heights leaving Hamburg its a rushed route overall and it shows top to bottom in my opinion.
     
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  23. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    For me, I just buy dlc’s that interest me and I will enjoy, which is why I’m going to do a comparison between east coast way and southeastern hs. The difference is jaw dropping, on sehs, you have terrible scenery and messed up terrain..... meanwhile on ecw, few bugs, amazing scenery and perfect terrain.

    Edit: I just wanted to show how’s the last 4 route dlcs have been rated as ‘mixed’ on steam store
    C533DC3B-2B55-47F7-813D-07EC71EE1A43.jpeg
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  24. Cotax

    Cotax Well-Known Member

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    I am also dissapointed. I was really enjoying the game, and had anticipated the patch - i could not wait for it. On tuesday i left my work sooner, just to try out everything fixed. Then i found out that Talent 1442 on rapid transit is not RD supported. Ok.. then i went to check LIRR and found out sounds are still an issue. I felt dissapointed and frankly, didnt have the will to play tsw anymore that day. Then on thursday, i was eager to try Hamburg. It feels unfinished and rushed + bad perfomance. I barely made the tutorials and gave up in the middle of timetables.

    This week I gradually lost my will to play tsw :( And this is sad. And a few QA would prevent this. But to release the patch AND the Hamburg in this state - that shows lack of the respect to the customers. And thats no good. We are the ones paying you. We deserve better treatment than that. Dont shame yourself DTG and build bad reputation, because i know you can be much much better than that. But once the trust is lost, there is no way to repair it. So please, make things right and proper. Bugs will always happen, its ok, i dont expect 100% bugless game, but there is some level, where too much is too much. And that level was reached this dark week.
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well DTG aren’t alone in this, just look at the mess which is still the new MS Flight Sim.

    Which brings me to another point. While generally I like the good stuff in TSW(2) and harbour no ill will towards the Trains division at DTG, I do have a little checksum I run before hitting the Buy Now button for a DLC. That is to recall, this is the company that took my money for Flight Sim World early access on the basis of how wonderful it was going to be. It then got canned, for reasons undeclared but probably because MS wanted the patents back to give to Asobo, but not before they declared it was out of early access (when it really wasn’t) which then blocked buyers from getting their money back against EA fulfilment terms.

    Mass Effect Legendary did I hear? Might have to give that a try. Otherwise there’s the ongoing satisfaction of driving across a scaled down but nonetheless significant percentage of the continental USA in ATS.
     
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  26. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    And here I am trying to resist getting it now for budget reasons. If it goes on like this, you‘ll make me buy it now, too :D
     
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  27. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Anything I type will only echo what others have said, but I am curious.

    How much of this current lack of quality has to do with their new auto generation tool?

    Ever since we’ve been told about it, it seems that DLC is getting worse, with the exception of the loco and CRR DLC (which could maybe be because of how long they were worked on and who was involved in development), LGV scenery was, frankly, abhorrent. SEHS has an big issue of having large areas of scenery just lacking, Arosa seems to be in a league of its own when it comes to scenery too.

    HBK has issues where it’s looking like no human development intervention took place at all, missing magnets & foliage invading the track and stations (more than the usual grass on track).

    Combine a tool that generates a map for you, with the rate at which rolling stock is being reused, and a fan base that has historically bought anything, then DTG think they have found their golden goose.

    This is what concerns me about rush hour, how much of these routes will of had a human touch, even the trains which are “never just a reskin” are now plagued with issues, it seems that rush hour will be churned out of this auto gen tool, then the trains will simply be CTRL + V’d from a folder.
     
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  28. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    £54.99 is going to be a hard sell to the wife, but I'm working on it...
     
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  29. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    At least some of the Meh routes did have correct rolling stock and were actually playable, even enjoyable even if they weren't great in terms of scenery and attention to detail, unlike HHL, not being able to play with PZB is not even comparable to missing fences or bad scenery, it's almost as bad as spawning on top of the buffers on the S6, and we never had the wrong rolling stock volunarly released togheter with a new route - unrealistic substitutions, sure, but never a train released with the route was as incorrect as the awful 112, bugged 182 and wrong DoStos.

    Cantcharth Circle is another route I'm looking forward to, and just being not as bad as HHL would make me happy, at least AWS should be easier for DTG to model... TPWS is largely absent in other routes anyway...

    How many different teams are doing route building? Maybe one is better than the others?

    Just like with GWB, if they can't be bothered to make a DLC good, it's better not to do it in the first place. "Doing the high door DoStos is too much work for little reward" what sort of argument is that?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  30. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Considering the tool's still experimental Arosa likely wasn't using it, as Rivet are a outside developer. And I believe others have mentioned SEHS actually was partially outsourced as well, thus causing one half of the route to be noticeably lower quality than the other. The autogen tool is a small part of the problem. this isn't the first time they've rehashed locos or had broken signaling (particularly German routes), this stuff has regularly reoccurred in TS Classic since the beginning.

    Ultimately the big issue is lack of time, and this can be seen since the beginning of TS Classic. They develop and release too many products at a time to properly develop and test them. I can't think of any developer that pumps out the amount of content that DTG do. The titles that pumps out content regularly does so with small things, like SCS with their paint job and tuning packs, or how mobile games will add a few new characters or levels every few weeks. Big time projects, like the SCS map packs for example, are infrequent and are given a ton of time to bake in the oven. DTG on the other are often making something ridiculous like six routes per-year just in TSW, when the amount routes made probably should be cut in half based on the quality of the current output. If they did that I'd guarantee you quality would go up substantially overnight just with that change on its own.
     
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  31. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The only thing outsourced about SEHS was the 465, and it wasnt as much as outsourced as DTG got the sound pack from Armstrong, the scenery on that route is specifically bad at St.Pancras, Dagenham & a good chunk of Kent.

    Arosa Line & Rivet I agree with, but I’m getting tired of saying Rivet should be given more slack with their routes because they’re new to TSW 2 & Unreal, they’re still charging the same and some of the decisions being made there aren’t really down to how much experience they have, so I expect there next route to be much better in terms of quality, I still haven’t bought a rivet DLC for TSW, and if they keep up their lack of quality I never will.

    As for the quantity of content, that’s my point really, you can tell when we get a DLC which has had the time it needs to come out well, and DTG struggle with 6 releases per year, but this year DTG are pushing for an extra 3, on the back of an already busy release schedule that’s been running since January.

    Clearly they’ve found an incredibly quick method for creating routes, because as it stands the average time for a route development seems to be not even 2 months, including rolling stock and other DLC such as timetables and new locos.
     
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  32. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I have similar suspicions.
     
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  33. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Disagree, I gave in and got it yesterday and would say it stands alongside the best of the German routes in terms of the modelling, and goes further as to feel a bit different owing to the geography and the fact two trains can share the same platform at the same time in Hamburg Hbf, I certainly did not pick up any 'rushed' quality to it, PZB issues aside. There are issues inherent to TSW2 routes such as stations not being busy and too many empty platforms, but nothing unique to this route. I actually think it is a nice return to form after SEHS. Having now played it a bit, I really don't think it's the smoking gun for a reduction in quality people seem to think it is, there are issues, sure, and the PZB one is a big 'un, but aside from that I'd it's a quality route with a decent range of services and fits in well alongside other German DLC. As I said, I think it is in a better condition than SEHS, or HMA for that matter, were on release. If the doors and lights are an issue, you knew long before release this wasn't for you, and neither of those are bugs, they are design choices, which is a different conversation imo (similar to the PIS on LIRR).

    So with the above said, I can understand why HLL was released as it is, it does work and is playable... If you don't turn PZB on. Now that is a big thing, PZB is important, but it's not big enough imo to delay release. Again, you might disagree, that's fine, but I'd say unless playing with PZB is the most important thing to you, this is a fun route that has a huge potential for gameplay owing to the continuous back 'n' forth nature of the regional routes. Now, when it comes to the PZB issues, they need to be fixed, but as I've said elsewhere, my main problem is not with the issues themselves, I can myself understand releasing content with issues owing to tight scheduling, but it is the fact that there must be a plan to fix them as there usually is for new routes, and so why is it so difficult to explain that to customers, so they know how long the fixes might take and when they can expect to be able to make full use of the route and its features? Based on past TSW 2 route history a patch will come along in the next couple of weeks that irons out any of the worst stuff that dents the enjoyment of the route, but we shouldn't have to assume these things, clear communication with reliable info means we can decide before buying the route a la SEHS that a patch will come soon after release to address issues, we can then plan accordingly, whether we buy or wait for the patch. Todo bien.

    On LIRR, similarly what I would say is this, I wouldn't care if what was released was half the fixes, and in a month the other half comes and everything we expected based on Adam's comments was there, but someone has to explain that to us, otherwise what? We have no idea if this was planned or something went wrong, or if this is as good as it gets or we have more to look forward to. Again, I suspect it's because whoever knows these things isn't sharing the info with the customer-facing staff, and they don't know enough on their own without that info to confirm these things, so we get vague comments and we just sort of have to assume the fixes now themselves need fixes and those fixes will be behind all the fixes for the other preserved collection routes. Is that what they want us to assume or not?

    Reliable info would resolve most of the problem for me, it's nice that there is lots of communication in streams and articles, but it is useless if it is consistently containing erroneous info that leads to expectations that can't be reached by the content and updates they are releasing.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  34. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    How is saying "Don't blame the autogen tool for Rivet's screw ups" giving them slack? If anything I think it makes them look worse, at least DTG have the argument of messing around with experimental tech, it's not much of a excuse, but it's something, Rivet don't have any excuse other than inexperience and lack of QA/QC on both them, and DTG. Rest of your post is completely fair though.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  35. dbrunner#4864

    dbrunner#4864 Well-Known Member

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    Wanted to say something about how DTG has stopped caring but its useless.

    I will only say this to DTG, "don't Rivet things up" !
     
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  36. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t mean you were giving Rivet slack, I meant that I have previously done so with the reasons I outlined above, I didn’t make that very clear I apologise.

    My general feelings on TSW 2 as whole, for the developers that have released content, is that its leaving me as a customer feeling like TSW is less about bringing Train Simulator into a modern game engine, and more about getting as much cash as quickly as possible.

    Where we get shorter routes (and this is aimed at Rivet) we should be seeing more gameplay variety and more detail in the route, but it only seems to be worse.

    Where we get tools such as auto generation, we should be seeing longer routes with consistent detail, and not the same length routes with less attention to detail and reused stock churned out at an increased rate.

    Cathcart circle is looking to be a prime example of a cash grab, they have the 313 DLC in development, which I suspect was created prior to the 314, then they auto gen the route, modify the already created asset to make it look appropriate, and sell.

    Back in TSW2020 something like Cathcart would of come with at least one other train, however TSW 2 is proving to become an experiment for DTG to see how far they can shift the profit margin, and it’s really starting to show in their releases.
     
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  37. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    One more thing comes to mind. Sometimes, not only from the mouth of DTG, this type of advice is given: you are not sure if this product will satisfy you, do not buy it. I would like to reverse the roles a bit: DTG, if you are not sure of the quality of your product, do not sell it. I hope never to hear this frivolous explanation ever again. Why then create such paraphrases.
     
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  38. nockwurst

    nockwurst Well-Known Member

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    PZB is a massive issue.
     
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  39. ghawk2005

    ghawk2005 Well-Known Member

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    What is worse is when they reply acknowledging there is a huge error and then just say they won’t fix it because there’s too much work readjusting timetabling. For this reason I am out. I have spent a lot of money on TSW2 and like a lot of customers here, they could have had a lot more from me ( us ) but I will not be spending any more!

    Back to TS2021 and Armstrong Powerhouses unbeatable quality products. The difference is insane.
     
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  40. colinL

    colinL Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, this is really what pisses me off the most. While streaming they encounter a bug, it gets acknowledged but they just shrug it off as "I don't promise anything" or something like that even though it are the most trivial little things.
     
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  41. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    In the marketing industry, the "Don't Buy This...!" approach is part of a new trend in "Innovative Communitying".

    There are lots of new techniques that are becoming quite popular these days, such as showcasing your new product in a completely crippled form (WCML for TS2012), and continuing for over an hour to demonstrate it, well after you have already made it clear to everyone just how broken it is.

    Or there's the lovely idea where you ask your customer base to send a list of all the technical issues that they have with a product (TSW 2020) under the pre-text that the issues can all be fixed before the next generation comes out (TSW 2) so that the issues don't have to be fixed twice.... and then later on making it clear that every report/contribution from the Community for that project was a complete waste of everyone's time because actually they would probably all be completely ignored. This is part of the zeitgeist known as "Innovative Communitying Relationship Managementing ".

    Personally, I miss the old marketing techniques..... like writing down all of your personal information in a survey in the hope that you will win a week's holiday for four in Benidorm. With the old techniques, there was always some hope. Not much hope, but some.
     
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  42. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, I think this is a case of once bitten, twice shy. People still bring up what Matt said when CSX:HH was originally released (which is understandable, but bear with me). They just want to avoid promising something that they hope to deliver (but don‘t know for sure).

    The ideal solution would, of course, be for these issues to never appear, but I‘d still rather have honesty than empty promises. Should these issues be fixed? Yes, absolutely. But if they don‘t know that they will be fixed, then I want to hear that they don‘t know if they‘ll be fixed.
     
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  43. nockwurst

    nockwurst Well-Known Member

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    Honesty is one thing, honesty and shrugging off the issue is another. If you don’t know that the problem can be fixed, how about fixing it before it is released?
     
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  44. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    In a recent stream matt said Glasgow Cathcart Circle&Br Class 313 where about to enter there testing faze,But with the way things have been going the only ones being tested are dtg player base.Plus the fact he could say that on camera makes me think he really believes new content truly tested before release,At this point the real testing will be done by the player base judging by how much activity the dtg technical page gets within 24hrs of any new contents release.
     
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  45. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, honesty is one thing, but prevarication is quite another. A long, long time ago, when the C40-8W was first released, it was noticed on the stream that the DPU control ( banking com) was inoperable. A "we'll have to look into this" was the response at the time. A major problem. I haven't heard a word about it since. Now, it's happened on the CRR F7 and all we've heard is that "we'll have to make sure this doesn't happen next time". Then there's the " on again, off again " dynamic brake problem with the EMD locomotives. Have any of these potential game breakers been fixed? If they have, I'm not aware of it. So, I'll take action over talk every time. There's a lot to like about TSW2 and I'm a committed player, but some things do hit a nerve sometimes.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  46. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    The poll in this thread is overwhelmingly conclusive so far. Hopefully, DTG takes notice.
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It isn't a suprise tbh
     
  48. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Sam said in a recent stream they would welcome competition in the train sim market because it could only make the games better,So since they dtg have no competition atleast from the console side(PC has other train sim options)but with Sonys PS4/5&Xbox One or Series S/X TSW2 games,dtg is the only train sim game available for them,so without dtg having any competition in the console market is this the excuse they are trying to use for why every new tsw2 dlc just keeps getting released as a technical filled hot mess?It should not require competition for dtg to get there act together because by then there reputation my be unfixable.(Which sounds about right with the way thing are for them).
     
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  49. colinL

    colinL Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I mean I absolutely get what they're saying. But they simply shouldn't be so unsure if they want to fix it.This sentence has been said about many bugs, while many of them simply *have to be* fixed as they are quite gamebraking and there's no excuse imo to not fix them. Especially if those were promised features (Train PIS on HBK). Like I said I get it, don't wanna get hopes up that its 1000% gonna be fixed in case something completely unexpected comes up and makes it unable to be fixed. But so much of the stuff simply must be fixed imo. The sounds of all the preserved collection content (especially you, 146, especially you) as people paid money for that content and can kinda not use it. Or the PZB stuff at HBK or the 182 LZB now. I think they should really get all of the rolling stock up to the standard of the BR101.
     
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  50. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I very much agree with both of you. I am in no way defending the practice of releasing broken content with no fixes in sight. Nor am I defending the practice of just saying we'll look into it every time a new issue is found. All I wanted to say is that I understand why Matt can't really say anything else on stream from a marketing perspective. Sorry if I didn't make my position clear :D
     
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