Dtg, Quality Policy

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by breblimator, May 14, 2021.

?
  1. yes

    139 vote(s)
    84.2%
  2. no

    26 vote(s)
    15.8%
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  1. nockwurst

    nockwurst Well-Known Member

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    Shots fired
     
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  2. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    The real question is : Am I an Enthusiast ? :)
     
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  3. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should not hang to long in these two examples. I think something is fundamentally wrong in the internal testing policies and release policy. I am aware of the external issues you have with partners but I think:

    1. These patch releases are far to big, therefore far to complicated and risky. Go full swing for small and frequent patches.
    2. For reasons not known to me, new DLC have to many initial issues, that should have been spotted by either the developers or QA.
    3. I am not sure, but Clinchfield has a small but remarkable bug. In the start screen it says SD40-2, where it should be SD40. This raises for me the question on the quality of internal communication. The process of creating a route involves a lot of specialists, are they all to a sufficient degree involved in the total product and are they aware of the fundamental design decisions? This tiny bug is not important, but it looks sloppy and I see more often just a lack of attention to details.

    It may be very helpful to start creating good written manuals, so at least you can know how a loco or DLC is supposed to work. The manual may also cover a lot more pride, why is this a great DLC? I do not hear that sound very often except from Matt.
     
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  4. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    They release updates every two weeks, more frequently than that would make things worse not better. Imagine having release deadlines once a week, or even twice a week? It's not going to help things, even if it's less content per update, it'll end up more work.
     
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  5. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I believe they're saying "Instead of updating each DLC with 50 fixes every six months, update DLC with 3 or 4 fixes every few weeks"
    This would (in theory) mean that any foul ups are caught and fixed quickly in the next round, and also with only 3 things to troubleshoot (if it's not known which is causing the issue) rather than 50 the QA should be much quicker each time
     
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  6. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I would welcome fewer updates more often. The latest patch was far too big to properly know what was and wasn’t working and what was causing the issues that raised their ugly heads.
     
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  7. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    I agree to make the downloads smaller and to ensure that they do not cause more issues then they fix. I believe all downloads should be route specific and not multiple routes at one time.
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't see a problem with this per se given that routes are fairly "self contained", although I guess it would help with issues relating to stock assets rather than route assets, because they're shared or reused on those other routes
     
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  9. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't this effectively mean the preservation crew working across almost every DLC at once? (Which I dunno if that's a good idea just because the current way hasn't worked this time) Or literally we only get 3 fixes across the whole portfolio once every few weeks? In which case it'll take 15 years to get anywhere near fixing them.
     
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  10. Reventloff

    Reventloff Well-Known Member

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    Apparently DTG's current model prioritise expansion of content as fast as they can rather than maintaining the stable quality.
    When I realised this, I just relaxed and stopped purchasing anything at all before reading the proper feedback of the players community. I see no other option now except cherry-picking the best DLCs with less bugs and proven quality (like CRR for instance).
     
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think the points here all need to add up:
    1. Before DLC get released they should be stringently tested to breaking point. Every signal, every bit of track, every asset. This would mean that bugs wouldn't make it out into the wild in the first place
    2. The preservation crew could make 3 or 4 things per route a priority and release those updates. If this was done on a weekly or biweekly schedule that would mean they could do say five small patches (over five routes) and still get back to them within a couple of months. There are currently 20 DLC routes, I am tying train assets to routes
    3. The preservation crew's job should be bringing up standards by putting in new tech appropriate to the route rather then developing new tech or having 50 bugs to fix (back to point 1), so really the breakage should be minimized
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Surely this should be how consumerism works anyway? Buying things before you know how good they are (or broken as may be the case) sounds nonsensical to me
     
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  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But the two go together. On the one hand, we're told that patches take so long to release because they have to go through QA testing. But when they do eventually release, apparently no QA testing was done at all.

    ----------------------
    And that, frankly, is inexcusable. How is it that nobody noticed these two obvious, glaring and game-breaking bugs? Especially after this patch was held up for weeks allegedly for QA testing?
     
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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What is really disturbing is that I am starting to see elements of what at least has the whiff of dishonesty about them. Not Rivet-level, but:

    • In the HBL release stream, the dev build Matt was demonstrating had all the 500-Hz magnets turned off. As if somebody didn't want the public to see that in fact they were malfunctioning and causing penalty braking
    • The LIRR/RT patch did NOT include all the fixes listed in the patch notes. At the time it was said "well, it's a two-part patch. The rest will come out with HBL." Except that wasn't true at all- no additional patch came out last Thursday, and now we are being told that there never will be a part 2. Somebody, somewhere, is telling little white lies.
    I can sympathise to a certain extent with employees who are stuck in an untenable situation and really are only trying to cover their tushies. It isn't the community staff's fault or the devs' fault or Adams' team's fault that certain destructive policy decisions have apparently been made at the very top (QA doesn't matter, ship it broken; dump all product repair responsibility on just four people, on top of the upgrade responsibilities they were originally tasked with; "shrinkflation" in the form of offering less and less new content for the same price; hire an inadequate number of QA staff and those evidently not actually conversant with trains) But when the CYA edges over into fibbing to the customer base, a potentially very very bad spiral has begun.
     
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  15. dcnine#5410

    dcnine#5410 Well-Known Member

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    I was under the impression there actually was a part 2- just only for PS4. Xbox and PC got it all in 1 update.
     
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  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    We most definitely did NOT get it all.
     
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  17. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    We probably got it all in terms of the "whole update", it was ended up being a really bad update.
     
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  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No, I mean that out of the items specifically listed in the patch notes (which should have a precise one-to-one correspondence to the contents of the file upload), roughly one-third are NOT implemented.
     
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  19. nockwurst

    nockwurst Well-Known Member

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    Something I’ve always wondered, and to be fair, I’m relatively new to the forums, but why aren’t there better, and more plentiful, manuals? I would think both simmers and train enthusiasts would love a great manual.
     
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  20. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Maybe there's really only one person to blame for allowing this to drag on for this long.
    With all 3 of there primary titles.
    DTG Fishing.
    DTG Train Simulator
    DTG Train Sim World
    Who that you ask...None other then the owner of this company.For any company quarterly earnings reports and profit for sharholders are there primary concerns.quality of said products are clearly questionable at this point,dtg could be drowning in $$$ by now if releases where better tested and released with way fewer issues to detract from the newest dlc.It really very sad that a company that was built on the love of fishing and trains would allow those enjoyable efforts that they proffess to love deeply to get so mired into such a technical mess that only gets 3 shovels of dirt deeper with every release.The people who buy there products are either fishing fans or train fans or both,and in the end all i believe fans really want is for the person in charge to love the product there company produceds as much as the people love to enjoy it do.fin...
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  21. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's true, but that can still fall into a "bad update" category. They listed a bunch of stuff that ended up not working.
     
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  22. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I am starting to wonder if this company even has a QC/QA team or you guys and gals do, but it doesn't have any standards.

    With all due respect it's one thing to say something, it's another thing to actually do it. How in the world did bugs like that only get found in the morning of the update's release when it was found by players in literally minutes of playing. This patch was held up because of "QA Testing" for crying out loud. Had the route been tested properly which it clearly was not it would've easily been spotted and fixed quickly

    We keep hearing these same reassurances time and time again but the same mistakes keep happening with no proper explanation as to why and it's getting to the point where it's just becoming complete nonsense and empty words. We were told that the update took a while because it was going through QA yet the update is released as if it didn't go through QA. Does DTG even have a QA? The audio issues on the M7 are still broken even though that was supposed to be fixed, I played the Race Day Run scenario on the M7 and in the first few seconds of driving, the train had no motor audio so how did that slip through QA? Players were told on roadmap streams that the LIRR PIS when it was being worked on had got pushed back because the style of the system on the MTA Long Island Railroad was different than German/U.K systems (which it is) and that a new artist had to be hired to design it which led some to believe an accurate system was gonna be built but instead a carbon copy paste of the system from SEHS is released for LIRR which is completely unacceptable considering what was said over and over again, The RT S6 service is literally unplayable and new bugs were introduced. The worst part is that most players were told that only the part of the last week's update was released and the rest would be released by the end of last week. I was told on Friday when I submitted a ticket that the full patch was out yet clearly no patch was released at all.

    Other companies would have had patches to fix bugs like these out by now including small companies but with DTG it's a case of "Release It Now, Fix It months later." Heck, we be luckily if all these issues were fixed tommorrow or even three weeks later but that isn't certain.

    I believe there needs to be a serious change in management because it seems they are focused on making money than release consistent quality products. The reviews of HBL on steam seem to reflect that. "Adding High Floor Dostos would have been too much work for little gain". What type of thinking is that?

    There needs to be an actual QA with actual standards because it appares that there is no proper QA process or none at all. Things like "We only knew about this at the morning of release" is utter nonsense because it makes it seem like it wasn't tested properly when players found out in minutes. I also think that the main team should get involved to fix these issues because this company is charging $30 for broken preserved routes. Maybe if some the main team was involved, we wouldn't be having the issues that occured with the lirr update. There also needs to be better communication about certain things. There shouldn't be a person from the support team saying that the full patch will be released but it actually does not. The management at DTG probably need an update themselves to get their act together. All of this could've been avoided when these routes released for tsw2 8 months ago but instead it somehow was better to "release it now and fix it partially and make some things worse 7 and a half months later."

    If this behavior keeps going on, it's gonna lead to some players abandoning the product all together and I don't think that is in the best interest of DTG.

    I'll believe your reassurances when I actually see things getting done because I hear the talk but I don't see the walk
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Funny enough, the CEO of DTG is Paul Jackson who used to work for EA. How ironic. Perhaps that explains certain things
     
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  24. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    You mean, a man can leave a corporation, but a corporation cannot leave a man? :D
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Seems to be the case along with putting profit over quality which is what EA has done on multiple occasions and DTG as well
     
  26. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Actually, a weekly deadline can help with a lot of things. Having a weekly routine will help things not be missed. I generally can remember what I've achieved in a week, and therefore it's easier to check that patch notes are correct.

    The current release plan simply doesn't work for the consumer, and I can't imagine this is working for DTG either:

    - Patch notes are often incorrect.
    - Bugs are introduced and content sometimes doesn't work.
    - Excessive waits for patches (still waiting for them to resolve SKA crashes on console for example).

    Many other games can manage weekly patches (and sometimes even daily, for example the Stationeers beta branch is patched daily).
     
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  27. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Producer Staff Member

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    In this case it does appear as it was human error that has resulted in the issue going unnoticed. I will say it again just in case you missed my earlier post, but we are investigating why this wasn't spotted sooner.

    We are taking steps to improving things for the future. It is simply a slow process, and when we make mistakes we aim to learn from them.
     
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  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The topic begins to resemble coal mining in Poland (and probably not only). Excessive? Have a nice evening! :D
     
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  29. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well I think in one thing we can all agree on. You guys at DTG need to give yourself more time to polish out the products.

    I mean it's clear that you can make great routes with great features if there is enough time. Stop rushing things. You not only make the job harder for yourselves, but also deliver a worse product, which will make players unhappy and sales worse.

    Anyway this current situation is ridiculous. I feel sorry for you for being the "messenger" this time around. But looking forward to what tomorrow's steam will have for us. Hopefully both LIRR and RT gets a second round to address the issues with them.
     
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  30. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I have to say tomorrows stream is one I will be following with great interest. I think it may be a tough audience for Sam. We all know he can handle it but it shouldn't get to the point where he has to.
     
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  31. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, tomorrow's stream will answer nothing.

    It's a roadmap stream and they will focus on that. Plus, better QA and replacing the focus on cash with the focus on quality and accuracy are not on the roadmap yet...

    Heck, Matt talked more about the color pink in the second preview stream for HHL than any other topic. This is the level we are at right now.
     
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  32. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this games issues are about to finally come full circle,during covid19 a large group of player base most likely didn't have the extra cash to buy all the things they wanted over needed,but tsw2 fans knew that this game was a outlet for some train sim world action and they put some of there limited funds aside for something to help them escape there other life issues for a few hours,in this case a new tsw2 dlc.but all they been getting is less fun and if your spending more time here then playing tsw2 your not having any fun + now your stuck with a extra issue and that the last thing you need is another problem in your life.
    But now back to my main point with tsw2 headed down hill like a runaway train it could only end as a huge pile up at the bottom of the hill.In the case tsw2 dlc growing pile of technical issues have lead to a growing pile of bad reviews which has lead to people deciding to delaying buying new dlc or deciding to just not buy it at all,which leads to less money less profits and unhappy investors and a bad quarterly earnings report,which could lead to everyone at dtg being out of work.Which is what a large majority of your player base have had to deal with while they put aside alittle money and where supporting a game that gave them some enjoyment during these trying times.fin2
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  33. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I will say I’m guilty of blindly purchasing some of DTG’s products, purely because of my love for trains and the railway, however the past year has really turned me away from being excited for new content, we’ve had too few successes and too many flops, and now over the last couple of months the new found transparency has disappeared.

    The content itself is becoming difficult to want, in the first year of TSW2 we will of had more stock reused then new trains, and the routes aren’t making up for that because the detail just isn’t there, and the reused stock isn’t improved to any great length.

    DTG have also taken a liking to telling people not to buy their product, which to me at least is alarming for a new game in its first year, while the community is telling them what direction they want to see the game head in.

    We also hear “we’ll do better”, “we are listening”, “you have been heard”, “we will learn from this” and yet the same issue come up time and time again, both in game and by DTG in general.

    We also hear how DTG aren’t Microsoft and don’t have a huge budget and that they are the underdog, whilst they may not be Microsoft, they are certainly not the underdog in the world of train simulation, and they need to stop acting as such, they have over a decade of experience, and know what this crowd wants, a simulation that works, with adequate QA and informed decision making, as opposed to the current mantra of do what they can in a few weeks then ship it.

    That means accurate rolling stock, on accurately depicted routes, not the “it’s not worth the work for a small result” spiel (speaking to you dostos and 101 cab car), if i wanted subpar modelling and route aesthetics I’d pay £5 for DLC on TrainZ, as opposed to £25 per route here, along with an extra £11.49 for a new train since that’s the business model DTG are seemingly aiming for.

    Too many corners are being cut, in the game, in the in-house decision making, and in QA.

    Frankly both the performance and attitude of DTG is not good enough and is the reason I haven’t purchased a day one DLC this year.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  34. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I believe Sam specifically said they are going to have to talk about this whole situatuin on the next roadmap stream. So we hopefully should get some insight.
     
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  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They did say in the hhl stream that they will talk about the latest update on the roadmap stream. Frankly if they didn't they would look bad
     
  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Frankly the CMs don't. It's management's fault that the CMs have to deal with dissatisfied customers with issues that could've been easily avoided. It's annoying though that the same message is being repeated but nothing really changes. Things take time of course but they are acting as if they haven't had experince in train simulation in over a decade which they do so changes in QA policy and preventing other issues should not be a lengthy thing to do. Heck members of the community offered ways for them to improve
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  37. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    True but if your a dtg CM you been put by into a position by them where just figuring out what to say may beyond your ability to clam or comfort anyones feelings.
     
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  38. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    True.
     
  39. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Just on the whole QA thing and things not being resolved I have to put this in as it's been accepted as norm for ages now in the community (apologies but I'm playing now and just saw it)

    When will these blooming wheels get an improvement. londonmidland is this another for your to do list sir? :D

    I remember it being an unreal rotational thing but there must be spinning circles in other unreal products, bus simulator for example?

    Sorry to be pedantic but I was reading thread and playing. I don't hate the game and love what the team do but hmmmmmm Screenshot (62).png
     
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  40. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    I apologize, I was referring to things related to improvements in their approach towards clients for TSW when I said we shouldn't expect anything during tomorrow's stream. The time is too short to take such big decisions and make them public.

    They will probably present us with what we've seen here already but frankly, I'm not interested in a repeat. It's getting old already.
     
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  41. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    I always wondered, could this be a/the big delay in the arrival of steam locomotives!?
    Imagine any steam locomotive with its majestic exposed wheels covered by the hideous blur. This is why I was discussing in a different thread about the fact that it makes me seriously wonder if they made an assessment prior to deciding to get Unreal Engine for TSW or they just got it for its convenience and cost.

    Thankfully, this goes away if motion blur is turned off. Considering how hideous the effect on wheels looks, it should be off by default.
     
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  42. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately this is something I can’t fix. It’ll be a DTG inside job to fix that.
     
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  43. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Stream in to the livestream tomorrow guys. Get your questions in and hopefully we’ll get some proper answers. We’ve already let DTG take the backseat far too many times, now is the time to request change as this simply cannot carry on. It is completely unacceptable.
     
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  44. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, HHL was my wake up call, for a certain period of time I was very optimistic for the future of TSW, SE HS did receive the patches it needed and it became (IMO) a very good route, LGV has improved massively since release, and the anticipation of the work done by Adam made me really think things were going to improve in the future, I was so wrong, maybe naively I still hope HHL will be an isolated incident, I am still looking forward to Cantcharth Circe, but at this point I really don't know what to expect, my expectations are so low, if they manage to disappoint me at this point it would really be a considerable feat, but as I learned with DTG everything is possible. Fingers crossed AWS works :D
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  45. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    They could be easily solved by using blurred wheel textures (like most car racing games do) and rotating the 3D wheel models slower. But I doubt it's something modders could do, DTG themselves could
     
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  46. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    What about steam trains? Wouldn't that look awful?
     
  47. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    That may require a bit more thinking, true. But for most of the trains, it could work, as those are just rotating wheels.
     
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  48. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately for me, SEHS is anything but a 'good' route when you compare it to real life.

    The scenery is a absolute joke - it's clear that they ran out of time and were forced to release it in an unfinished state. There's load of plain looking areas and you can even see this as you are driving. This should not be the case and you should only see plain areas if you force the camera to the edge of the map.

    The 395, given its supposed to be the highlight of the route, is ironically the worse train that comes with it. The sounds are a complete joke (no running sounds - seriously?) and it seems to be poorly optimised as it always causes me FPS drops compared to the 375 and 465.

    There are also still bugs with the route such as tunnel lighting. This was marked as 'fixed' in the patch notes, however the tunnels still face issues. The 465 has a weird glow as you travel through them. The ambient sounds are also non existent.

    Overall, I am far from impressed with SEHS. It was a lazy effort by DTG and it certainly shows.

    Below looks like an inexperienced player built the route.

    TSW2_Josh_1613941642_00.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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  49. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    In my opinion, the developement of TSW feels like that DTG pushing the TSW to the Wall.


    For a very long time, until the Hamburg Lubeck announcement, I thought that TSW was going in the right direction. But then: high-entry dostos are missing, BR112 has a lot of errors, Rapid Transit Update S6 errors, 500hz Magnets are 1000hz magnets on HHL.

    That said that they don't deliver the high-entry Dostos because they don't have enough time feels like a lie, because Matt said they didn't deliver an ICE-T on Riesa Dresden because otherwise they couldn't deliver that much rolling stock. Hamburg Lübeck only has recycled rolling stock - actually nothing new.

    What has DTG been doing in the past 9 months?


    Skyhook designed the landscape (1 kilometer per day), not DTG (source: Skyhook website). So there would have been enough time in the 9 months - why wasn't the time used? Why?
     
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  50. xblackwolf90

    xblackwolf90 Well-Known Member

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    Watching the roadmap streams over the last few weeks had given me quite a bit of hope for the preserved collection.

    No deadlines, and the pushing back due to extensive beta and QA testing may be a tad frustrating for some, but it gave the impression DTG were being very thorough this time. By ensuring everything was brought up to scratch and focusing on getting the job done properly without rushing, they had a great opportunity to show they were dedicated to finally fixing the outstanding issues.

    Update day came, and I was still really optimistic. Finally... LIRR and RT getting the love they deserved. I'd seen the patch notes and was excited to fire up the game for the evening when I finished work. Epic disappointment came instantly. The first thing I did was jump in to RT to take a look at my favourite route from TSW2020. I went for a short, 30 min service SO I could have a look at LIRR afterwards, and I derailed on loading. How can it be that the first thing I do brings up a catastrophic bug, yet no one in testing ever thought to try running an S6 service?

    I love playing TSW, but the botched launch of SHS and the state of Arosa on launch both damaged my confidence to the point where I considered not buying further content for the game. This update was the chance to change that. Bring out two great updates and get stuff up to scratch and I'd be happy with confidence boosted, perhaps not fully restored.

    The sorry state of this update means I now have no confidence DTG will ever get on top of the issues. I haven't purchased Hamburg to Lubeck, and from the reports on the forum, I'm extremely glad I didn't.

    DTG: I've purchased almost all the DLC for TSW so far, with Clinchfield and Canadian Nation being the only two items of DLC I haven't bought previously. Unfortunately, you've dropped the ball far too many times lately. You have a lot of work to do to win back my confidence to convince me to invest any more money in your product. Until my confidence is restored, I will not be purchasing any more DLC, including the Rush Hour update coming this summer.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
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