PlayStation Dtg Simply Doesn’t Care ...

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by Mattty May, Feb 9, 2021.

  1. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I’ve just been watching this video that someone posted on another thread relating to Southeastern High Speed.

    In the video, the host shows us around Gravesend Station, which, when you see some of the poor attention to detail (which I hadn’t seen using the limited camera views with the immersion controls on PS4) is absolutely appalling to say the very least and keeping things polite.

    Houses submerged, road randomly placed, massive holes everywhere.

    I really don’t know how people can say this route is some of DTG’s best work. In my opinion, it is the single worst route it has released for TSW 2020 and TSW 2. I would encourage everyone to view the video (particularly the bit around Gravesend Station) and hand on heart say that DTG has done a good job with this route afterwards.

    I think this route has absolutely been rushed to meet an already delayed release date (as Sam said it should have released in 2020) and I really do think that DTG is taking us, paying customers as fools. How this route got past quality control is an absolute joke.

    Some radical rework is needed just around Gravesend Station, never mind the rest of the route.

    I have been a loyal DTG customer since discovering the game last year. I’ve bought every route (apart from the Canada route) and pretty much all of the additional DLC. However, not that DTG will really care, but I have to say that unless quality dramatically improves, I’m unlikely to buy anything else.

    This post is harsh, though it could be harsher. However, DTG needs to understand that it cannot be releasing garbage like this and taking peoples hard earned money for such a poor effort.

    It’s not without a heavy heart I’ve written this post. Since discovering Train Sim World, it has brought many hours of enjoyment and I’ve really enjoyed immersing myself as much as possible into the routes available, but I fear that DTG will carry on releasing such sub-par content if we continue to let it. It needs to have a word with itself!

     
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  2. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    It is really frustrating how bad areas of the route are and how good others are. The attention to detail to the destination boards, signals (clicking sounds when they change), the train detail. All great. But then large sections of the route with no TLC.
     
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  3. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Gravesend is a submerged station, 99% of the time you aren’t looking around the town above the lines, the houses are there which is pretty much what you’d expect, but I’m not bothered about the geographical placement and road layout, because it’s not an area that I’m looking at, and I doubt many others are either.

    And to be quite frank, JT doesn’t exactly release perfectly polished content, so I think they’re getting a little too cheeky with the depth of their scrutiny.

    It’s one thing for a customer to vocalise their complaints about a product, even if they do become extreme, but for a developer to do so publicly is just childish, especially so when you’re selling your content only on the basis that a product DTG made exists.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  4. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It is a a bit dog-in-the-mangerish
     
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  5. dan5324

    dan5324 Active Member

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    Just trains lol. I remember their terribad western mainlines and it’s FPS issues and constant crashing. At least this is playable.
     
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  6. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Just to point out to some people, this wasn't a Just Trains video, it was by Tom, who works for Just Trains :) Tom's thoughts and opinions.
     
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  7. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’ve noticed that there are lots of scenery items that are poorly placed, floating, sunken or incomplete. On walkabout looking up from the various cuttings the track is in you can see up through the interior of houses and there are floating fences, gaps in walls everywhere. It certainly is poorly finished.

    This is all down to the length of the route. There’s just too much of it to be made to the right standard with the time given for development. That includes the extra time they have had after it was supposed to be released, last year. It’s been made to generally look okay from the cab of the trains but even then the scenery often looks poor. On foot and up high with external cameras is when you see more of the lack of finishing. There’s not really much else we can expect with a route at around 50% longer than usual with less than 50% extra time to make it. It’s obviously going to lack polish.

    Having said that, is that enough to start disliking the route in general? I don’t know. The badly looped horn sounds annoy me more. The broken AWS warnings do too. Am I still enjoying the route? Yes. Is it one of the best routes? No. Do I expect things to be better in the future? Yes, as long as DTG don’t try to do too much too soon. Everything else shouldn’t be allowed to suffer for the sake of longer routes. DTG will have learnt things from making this route for sure. I expect better.

    I’ve said all that before watching the video. I didn’t need to because I’ve seen it with my own eyes on different parts of the route. I’m going to watch the video now, and I’m expecting more of what I’ve seen already.
     
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  8. a.paice

    a.paice Well-Known Member

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    But if you couldn’t see it and only noticed after a video where another developer goes through with a fine tooth comb, is it worth them spending ages on it?

    The patches they have coming up sound pretty good so it should overall be slightly better quality soon.
     
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  9. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I had a look into this video, and to be honest, it is utter bs. The creator shows in various points (and I only watched about 15 minutes, could not watch this any longer) that he has no clue about the route or train and how things work and don't (e.g. closing the coupler, speed limit of the train, etc.). This is not a source you should use to evaluate the quality of the route, since this is in no way a knowledgeable person doing an objective review of the route. This is unfortunately only very well in line with the renting and bashing that is unfortunately getting more and more common here, this trend makes me really sad, but by no means is this a proper review :(
    DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that the route is perfect, it has it's flaws, and I hate them as well, but it is not as bad as this person is suggesting in their video...
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  10. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    To be balanced he did also point out what he did like and what's good about the route. In regards to the patches, they said, all, none or some might actually be dealt with. They listed what they want to work on but we might not get everything they listed.
     
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  11. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    The visual evidence was clear to see without any commentary. Granted a lot of stuff you won’t and don’t usually see, but the outskirts of Gravesend Station shows a distinct lack of attention to detail and poorly placed assets.
     
  12. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    if i am 1.30 to 2 minutes late at stations why do the PIS boards on the stations say im on time
     
  13. xblackwolf90

    xblackwolf90 Well-Known Member

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    I've taken a look at the video, not in full end to end, but had a good watch through. To be honest, I hadn't seen the vast majority of the issues the creator mentioned, and I suspect that's the case for many players. If you sit in the cab driving, or flick to the external cameras when driving along the route, you'll probably not notice the vast majority of these errors. Even when on foot, many of these are out of bounds so you won't come across them, so they're not massively an issue for myself.

    The quality of the grass and foliage along the high speed section isn't as good as on some other routes, and I would like to see some improvements to it in future. In addition, the floating assets and glitches I would also like to see resolved.

    However, with the bugs and issues identified and highlighted in last night's stream, I think it's right that those are given priority over out-of-bounds scenery. As always, priority should be given to the game breaking bugs, and I would also like to see sound balance resolved before the scenery is looked at.

    There are definitely some areas where this route feels a little rushed and pushed to a deadline, and work is definitely needed scenery wise. I would hope it is indeed looked into once the initial major bugs are sorted. Whether that's quickly or later down the line once the route gets handed to the preserved team, we'll have to wait and see. I would hope the bigger scenery issues are resolved sooner rather than later of course.

    We do need to consider that routes are still £24.99 despite including more and more features as time goes on, such as destination screens, PIS boards, working level crossings, new and more advanced safety systems, power changeovers, plus much longer routes, so I guess something has to give a little.

    I have my fingers crossed for more updates in the very near future :)
     
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  14. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I appreciate that a lot of the issues I’ve got a bug bear with are things you might not normally see and I fully accept that game breaking bugs are a priority. I’m just perplexed as to how DTG could make these scenery mistakes and even more perplexed that they saw the light of day.

    Do the landscape builders not have a pride in their work?

    You can’t see the inside of an aeroplane wing, but you’d expect the quality of the workmanship inside the wing to meet strict standards.

    I might be being completely unfair and having a hissy fit for no real reason, but I do feel like DTG hasn’t given this route much love, which is a real shame more than anything else. But, I guess if DTG is happy to release content like that, we either have to swallow it or spit it out.
     
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  15. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    There are so many forumers who missed their true calling in life, I've seen episodes of Dynasty with less melodrama than this opening post. I am only half joking :D.

    DTG are not google maps with a sideline in railway simulation, quite the opposite. The point of their work, and of this game, is train and railway simulation. Let that be what they are judged most harshly for, let that be the reason why you do or don't buy their routes, not shoddy modelling of car parks, or unfinished curbs, this is a lack of perspective, even if the scenery surrounding stations is the most important thing to you, you must surely be able to see that it's not the most fundamental aspect of a game called Train Sim World.

    I understand scenery is important for immersion, I understand some people like to walk the route, but in the hierarchy of what a train simulation should be getting bang on accurate, I can't get fired up about most of the scenery issues mentioned in that video, I dont think any of it was stuff I had noticed in game, or particularly cared about if I had seen it. The game should aim to give accurate impressions of the types of geography and location, urban/rural, luscious/barren, flat/mountainous, and the stations themselves should be accurate, but beyond that, I fail to see the purpose of TSW becoming a world leader in photorealistic representations of small Kentish towns. I've said it before and I will say it again, I fully agree the scenery on this route is not DTG's best, but it's fine considering what the route gives us overall (pending bug fixes).

    I want DTG to push the envelope and see how far they can go with current tech, I'm interested in seeing what compromises arise, and for me personally, SEHS gives me more to do than HMA, which has more attention to detail scenery-wise, but also has noticeable frame rate drops all over the place, and very little variation in available services on console because they added 3478 working signals for tracks we cannot even utilise, and in exchange we lost layers. So I'm minded to prefer the SEHS approach than the HMA approach tbh, especially as one patch will probably resolve a lot of SEHS's problems, whereas it could be a year of optimisation before console users can play HMA as designed, if ever. Of course, even better if a happier medium can be found, but these things are not as easy as so many people want to believe they are, neither because some other developer does it better, or because some company your cousin's neighbour works for does everything perfectly in comparison to DTG, there are still challenges to making longer, more complex routes, for the same amount of money and in a similar amount of time that DTG does, compromises are inevitable.

    When it comes to issues with this route, the ones that should concern DTG right now relate to the train and railway simulation itself, as well as fundamental aspects of gameplay, once those are resolved and the train and route behave how they should, then maybe the preservation crew can rebrand themselves as the "car park makeover crew" and take on the mountainous task of making Gravesend station car park look more interesting (possibly the hardest challenge they will ever face).
     
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  16. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I probably was a bit over dramatic.
     
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  17. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    My passion can run away from me sometimes (well, on a regular basis).
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    To my mind the main focus of scenery development should be within 100m of the track, the bits you can see from the ride along or ride aside camera views
    The secondary focus should be within say 300-500m, what you can see if you're flying above the train. So is that a house or a shop or a factory, that sort of thing.
    Lastly a "general outlying scenery" could be applied so you can see generally if you're in the town, countryside, seaside etc, but you don't need to go to street level that far away from the line

    I lived in Gravesend for 17 years and know the area around the station very well. I know the brownish building next to platform 2 is actually a car park and that the white building in game doesn't exist. I know the road on the other side of the station has a gradient, but not a ski jump as is represented in game.
    There are other things too
    • for instance the footbridge next to Gillingham level crossing is the wrong shape, colour and missing it's light fixtures
    • a canal runs alongside the line between Gravesend and Higham, but this doesn't seem to be in evidence
    • people have mentioned that the Hoo Junction Halt platforms are still there in real life, but not in game, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside
    But does any of that matter when the focus of the game is driving a train?
    That's what the individual decides, and seeing as I don't know how much time the developers spend on each part of the scenery it's hard to comment, but for me I don't really care overmuch. Then again I don't go finding fault in what is a fairly good representation of what it's like to be on a train on that part of the route, even if specific items are slightly out of whack
     
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  19. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Looking like I’m in the minority, which is fair enough.
     
  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You'll notice nobody is saying you're wrong, only maybe that it means more to you than it does them
     
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  21. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I saw through the bottoms of houses in cuttings too, did it bother me, mildly to be honest but I can't get angry at stuff like that, maybe that is my problem. The good points of this route still outweigh the bad points for me. I don't think it is as polished as ECW although a lot more interesting.

    I do like the Trainsim.TV Youtube channel, they are very passionate and entertaining but I do think they maybe go a bit far in their scrutiny sometimes. I also think that developers develop an unconscious bias against other developers, they are always going to be comparing! They make some wonderful freeware routes but presumably they don't have deadlines to work to which commercial developers do.

    As far as inaccurate structures are concerned, it would annoy me if it was my local line but still not enough to get really angry, unless a really iconic building was missing. Anyway, they do say an artist paints what they see, not what is actually there!
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  22. JZJ90

    JZJ90 Active Member

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    I think the title of this thread is rather a bit too harsh. To say DTG just doesn't care just isn't true.
    Have you seen how genuinely passionate the DTG members get when on the streams! Also how many other game developers stream multiple times every single week and have such an open channel of communication with their player base?

    SEHS is a good route, nobody can convince me otherwise, because it works and doesn't crash constantly. The scenery absolutely could be better and I think it's fair to say that the developers and artists would spend 10x as much time on it if they were allowed to, but DTG is a business and as such they need to be paid so that they can actually stay in business and afford to employ their developers and artists. This is most likely why the deadlines for development are what really causes distant scenery to be less than optimal, because if they made it all an accurate depiction of what's there in real life then routes would take a year to make, and DTG would probably go out of business.
     
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  23. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I think when they use terms like "THE EVOLUTION OF TRAIN SIMULATION" and "AUTHENTICALLY REPLICATED ROUTES AND LOCOS" then it's DTG themselves who are setting the level of expectations.

    If you are going to make bold claims, you have to be able to back them up. This is subjective and one person may see that as being achieved, others may not.
     
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  24. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    But, maybe if the developers know the route isn’t completely up to standard they should push back harder against management. DTG is a business that needs to make money, so is every other business, but if you start releasing sub par routes filled with bugs and other issues, you are going to alienate your core players and then you don’t have a business at all.
     
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  25. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    Nothing in life is ever going to be perfect, I really do get that, but we all know DTG can and has done better.
     
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  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If the management don't listen to the people paying their company money, why would they listen to people who the company pays to do work?
     
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  27. JZJ90

    JZJ90 Active Member

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    I agree. Take ECW as an example, arguably one of their best routes in terms of scenery. At about half the length of SHS though, it means they probably had twice as long to work on it (in terms of dev time per mile).
    So the question is, do they need to stick to shorter routes, or do they need to adjust the price of their longer routes to buy more development time?
    Personally I like the shorter routes because for me I like to do a fun which is between 20 and 40 minutes. I have almost never played SPG for example because a lot of the scenarios and services are just too long for me, and I know this is the opposite of how some players feel.
     
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  28. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    That’s very true.
     
  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I believe that was before "automatic scenery generation" was a thing, so ECW was created by hand from start to finish whereas SEHS was likely auto-gen from GLM onwards, maybe even before that (major differences just after GRV and real life for example)
     
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would put quality ahead of route length and ECW is one of the best looking routes on TSW. However it is the one I feel is most disadvantaged by its length, once you have driven the 377 to Seaford or to Eastbourne, for me that is it for another few months until I feel like doing so again. I disagreed at first when others were saying it should have gone to Hastings or Ore, but now I think that they were right.

    I think a 40 minute drive on an immersive well built route, for me would be far more worthwhile than a 90 minutes on a rather bland stretch of mainline.

    But DTG's problem is that we are all different!
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Thing is in real life ECW is boring and has little variety. The good thing about a fully routed mainline would be the variation in consists
    Consider the difference between Lewes and Nuneaton
    Both are secondary stations almost in the middle of Nowhere comparitively, but Lewes has "100mph EMUs" and 66s hauling aggregates and the odd Engineer's train. That's it.
    Nuneaton would have EMU, DMU, three or four different service providers, freight of all kinds...

    And that's where the problems start for DTG. To give the necessary levels of complexity they would need to provide the consists, and as they showed with SEHS they're just as likely to put the wrong things in the right places just to make up the service numbers.
     
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  32. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes that's true of course, the WCML would be a headline grabbing route, but could end up being a real headache for DTG as there would be a public flogging if they got that one monumentally wrong!

    With ECW, at least going to Hastings, it would have meant you would have the cab change at Eastbourne but I suppose it wouldn't add much more. Maybe the class 313 will redeem it a little.

    Having been to Nuneaton and although having only seen photographs of Lewes, I never thought I would see the two compared in any form :)!
     
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  33. adam.fisher6912

    adam.fisher6912 Member

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  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Only because they're secondary stations.
    Brighton has a fair bit of difference, as do stations further up the line, Lewes is probably the most interesting "other station" because it's a junction. The rest are yawn inducing as far as variety goes

    Same is true for all the Medway stations. "Oh look a 395, and a 375, and a 700..." Repeat ad nauseum
     
  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Yes agreed, that is why the class 465 will be welcome even if the services aren't quite accurate at least it will add some variety the class 313 might do the same for ECW.

    I remember someone saying ten years ago that in ten years time railways will be boring it will be all Pendolino's and Desiro's. It hasn't quite worked out like that but in the future I do wonder where the interest will be.

    Take the Wherry lines for TS1 you can run quite a bit of variety of units in the same time period plus the loco hauled sets, what would a future version look like, "oh there is another Stadler" (or whatever they are called)?
     
  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG do keep saying that but that really hasn't been the case for some routes like lirr and hs1 sehs. To me the name Train Sim World means simulating the driving experince of train, making the train as it would be in reality and when dtg say "AUTHENTICALLY REPLICATED ROUTES" and have WORLD in the title, that means making a route and the surrounding areas of the route (even if you may not go in free camera much) as accurate as it would be in reality. When they say that, that's my expectation. Now no company will get everything accurate but they can get pretty close. Train Sim World is not just about simulating trains to me, but it's also about simulating how the surrounding areas are as they would be in real life even if you may not see them because it has "World" in the name and that's just my opinion. Everybody has different expectations for this game and I do enjoy the game.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the standard is that "within 5 minutes" is considered "on time", except on subways.
     
  38. ildario77

    ildario77 Well-Known Member

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    I never hide my disappointment about DTG, but I have to admit, I'm enjoying this route a lot. Some areas look unfinished but definitely better than LGV, by far the graphically poorest route in TSW2. I like the good mix between high speed services and commuter lines. Sad but true, we're still waiting for a new ECW in terms of quality.
     
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  39. Aufzug

    Aufzug Active Member

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    This has been an epidemic (for the lack of a better word) in the games industry. Developers/Publishers are publishing unfinished games (in DTG's case, routes) to the consumer to get an initial revenue stream, then they can patch after day one of release. In all of these cases, the development of the game is rushed and never allows the developer to properly test/refine/rework problems areas of a game. I don't claim to know anything about DTG's development practices, but clearly there needs to be a change.

    Here's the rub: SEHS as a route itself, is good. I love the choice of the route, the 395, the destination boards, etc. The scenery is just bad in a lot of places and it kills the sensory and immersion experience that many sim players are looking for. Bugs are bugs, and they bother me a lot less; what rubs me the wrong way though is that there was not enough time put into the development into this route to fix them prior to release. In the weeks leading up to release, there was clearly defined concern from the community. That should be a red flag to everyone.

    I will gladly wait longer for a route, AND PAY FULL PRICE if I knew the route was finished upon release. We have to stop saying "just wait for the patch to come out," or, "just wait until it goes on sale, it will be better by then." Why?! As customers we have to hold the people making the products we want to buy accountable for finishing them. Video games used to be completed by the time of release, and it's not the same anymore. It has become a quantity of revenue over the quality of a game.

    DTG, please just take your time with these routes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  40. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    On SEHS it shows departure times, which take into account the 1 minute of loading time at stations, so if you’re due into a station at say 13:30, you aren’t due out until 13:31, it won’t show a delayed time until you are delayed by 45 seconds upwards since the departure boards update in minutes.
     
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. DTG can sort out the most obiovous issues prior to release but they don't do that. It is annoying to hear "wait until the patch is released" I think it's good to hold dtg accountable for this. It's a shame most gaming companies do that.
     
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  42. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    "We are going to slam the door open", Train Sim TV. Tom.
    Wouldn't have hurt to slow the opening of the TVM safety system door, so u dont slam the door open
     
  43. Gronk Honker

    Gronk Honker Active Member

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    HEAR HEAR.
     
  44. Gronk Honker

    Gronk Honker Active Member

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    I really hope that DTG makes a Sydney route soon. Why? Because none of you moaners would have any frame of reference for its accuracy, and would just lap it up as given.

    Meanwhile, I’d see every flaw, but not care — because it’s an entertainment simulation built using artistic licence, not a 1:1 scale reconstruction.

    Meanwhile, with my terrible low standard of does this DLC offer me satisfactorily playable entertainment value?, I’m now having a great time driving SEHS while you all moan yourselves into the grave.
     
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  45. Mattty May

    Mattty May Guest

    I’m not having a go at how accurate the scenery is. If a building doesn’t look exactly the same as in real life, unless it’s a unique landmark, I don’t care. What I am having a go at is buildings placed in such a way that they are sunken, or there are huge holes visible. These are issues that should not be seeing the light of day. Whoever placed the buildings or the ground didn’t do a good enough job to allow these sorts of issues to exist. Whatever the reason for that is unknown, but poor.
     
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  46. Gronk Honker

    Gronk Honker Active Member

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    That kind of issue hasn’t troubled me at all. But I have to admit, I’ve not bothered inspecting the line for scenery faults. I’ve been too busy enjoying the drive, which is really the point from my own subjective perspective. Games look like cartoons anyway, they’re not photorealistic so what do I care?

    Even the Tricky Tunnels safeties bug at Ebbsfleet didn’t stop that — just switch safeties off, travel over the point, then switch safeties back on. Kind of like a driver might with a known track signal fault. It’s amazing how much fun you can have if you just stop obsessing over faults.
     
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  47. Lenwigg

    Lenwigg Well-Known Member

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    Well said. Exactly how I feel about the game and how and why I play it.
     
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  48. kennyjamesscott

    kennyjamesscott Well-Known Member

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    Tom makes valid points throughout the video and I do respect his thoughts. Especially as he takes a look at developers point of view.
    Now mind you, if you'd never seen his video then you would never have this poor opinion about the route.
    As Tom says, he actually likes the route and I agree with him. It is a good route, trains are beautiful but it also looks empty and rushed together in some areas.

    My complaints are different, drawing distance, it is looking rather empty. But between Faversham and Gillingham it looks good.
    There is also a 375 standing in Gillingham sidings. I thought that it was just placed there for the sakes of it but no. After watching trainspotting vid (real life from two years ago) on YT, there was 375 in real life. I was smiling, nice touch DTG.
    This route has nice touches all over the place. Yes, it could be better, a lot better but calling it the worst route is way too harsh. We have had a lot worse in the past. Most notably, München-Augsburg.

    To me, Southeastern High Speed offers a lot and I like the route. Is it worth the money? To me yes as I get the things out of it that is important to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  49. RailRoadEngineer

    RailRoadEngineer Member

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    It look like to me that time and money is constrained to DTG hence they rushing to add more DLC since RailWork days as they have to report to their investors also.

    We are bound to buy them as we have no other options (lack of competition)
     
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  50. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Say what? HMA is a great route! Only issue is that the object density around Munchen Hbf drops framerate noticeably.

    In particular, the tracks in HMA are the opposite of empty- simply teeming with life, if all the layers are active.
     
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