@dtg, Will The Lighting Issues Finally Be Fixed In Tsw3 ?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by tsw2, Aug 6, 2022.

  1. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Further proof.

    Look at the two trees above the Mk 1 carriages. Absolutely zero environmental lighting acting on them whatsoever. The reason? As has always been the case, they are outside the draw distance of the shadows so they just exist as they are, until the player gets close enough to them and they suddenly go from being the brightest bright to the darkest dark.

    2110E598-334B-4565-9836-85367E01EF7B.jpeg
     
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  2. CrAzZyKiLLa

    CrAzZyKiLLa Well-Known Member

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    so are you trying to say you expect shadows as far as the eye can see? Because that would just kill performance, they have to have a balance someplace. you can always push it further using ini tweaks if your system can handle it.

    However, I do agree some lighting seen in TSW3 does appear oversaturated or to bright. Especially in that Hoo Junction screenshot.
     
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  3. gogglesguy

    gogglesguy Active Member

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    Obviously light levels and draw distance are two separate issues. But I do think even without touching the draw distance it can still improve overall look. If shadows don't look like black holes / tar anymore, the render distance transition may be less contrasty and would look more natural. We'll have to wait and and see for some actual game play footage. One potential nice thing is that it can be relatively easy to do a direct comparison on the SEHS route at same time of day / view.
     
  4. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely I’m saying that. What other game has lighting detail that reaches 30-50% of the distance ahead of the player that then just stops, and everything beyond that is just as bright as the sun with no lighting acting on it at all? Train Sim Classic sure as hell doesn’t have that.

    If UE4 isn’t capable of this without crippling performance, then UE4 is a heap of junk.

    This lighting overhaul is an absolute sham. They’ve fiddled with things that absolutely no one has ever complained about (except perhaps with the exception of time of day) and the problems that have been consistently complained about since this game was released haven’t been touched. Eye adaptation? Many of us turned it off in the engine.ini because it looks rubbish and is totally unnecessary.
     
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  5. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    I "fixed" this screenshot in Photoshop. Open the two side by side and switch between them back and forth.

    tsw3.jpg

    All lighting needs is to be more even. The only thing I did was that I made shadows brighter. The details are there, they're just not visible. And this is what I don't understand. If TSW 3 has this "iris" effect, where it becomes brighter at a dark scene, then why does it not, when the scene (like in the original screenshot) is just too dark? It should allow more light and detail to come into the camera. It's all there, just not displayed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  6. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    No lighting rework, dtg is to busy now. It's all hands on deck to get the overzealous profanity filter ready for tsw3.
     
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  7. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    The problem in that screenshot is that the sun is below the horizon that the player is looking at. With that in mind, the two orange trees above the Mk1 carriages should be dark as we look at them, because the light source is below the horizon. Even if it were above the horizon the side of the trees facing the player should also be dark as they would be in shadow.
     
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  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    In today’s roadmap part two it promises brighter light bits and darker shadows. That’s kind of the opposite of what needs to happen. The shadow side of objects is already too dark and the light bits are too bright and washed out. I’m sure OldVern will share my concerns here. So far in the screenshots this is what I’ve seen to be the case also and the one above is made to look like a film scene rather than what a human eye would see. So this is the fear. It appears they are equating high contrast to good quality which doesn’t really follow. It usually means detail is missed out.

    Improvement or not, I suppose we will have to live with it. It also warns us to expect our old routes to look a bit rubbish. It doesn’t quite use those words but that is what it means. I really need to see the effects for myself under varying conditions to see if the new lighting is any better while playing. The joy will be that we be able to set the same services in both TSW2 and TSW3 to take screenshots or take videos to compare old to new in any old routes.
     
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  9. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    With tsw2 they messed up the sound of tsw2020 routes. Looks like tsw3 is coming for the graphics. I wonder what will be left to kill with tsw4 in a couple of years :D
     
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  10. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    We were told the other night;

    ‘we’ve started again. We’ve basically wiped the slate clean and our tech-art team have been doing an amazing job and they’ve engineered a complete new system for the way light is determined, essentially. What the light should be at various points of the day, where it should be pointing and all the rest of it’


    It implies to me that they’ve rebuilt the lighting system from scratch but when you really look at exactly what it is they’ve done it doesn’t seem to be entirely the case.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  11. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Another pre-release screen-shot. If this isn’t ringing alarm bells about the lighting then it probably ought to be.

    5FFC96E5-6066-4EB6-A372-F77883E84A6F.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but that's simply inaccurate. Magic Lights placed like movie lights, rather than the light coming from in-game sources, has received a LOT of criticism.
     
  13. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes it is relly hard to believe that ACC is running on the same engine, and was also developed with a small team on a tight budget..


    Tbh, I don't care that much about distance trees or shadow.... atleast until they do the essentials right. Just look at the sunset in the video above, and compare it with TSW. Look how soft the shadows are, and how nice the contrast is between lit and unlit part of the track, without the unlit part being pitch-black, like it is in TSW, becasue there is still enough of ambient diffused light. And now they are actually planning to make the shadow parts even darker? Does that also mean that overcasted conditions will be even darker now? Even now it looks on some routes that a freaking volcano exploded and the sun is just covered in ash cloud....

    Once again, look at ACC

    It is overcasted, and wet, but it is still pretty clear it is middle of the day.
     
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  14. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    This draw distance thing..

    imagine you are writing code for a game, originally on the PC, but it will get ported to consoles as ..? 4 - 8 different builds, each with less and less overheads, less available memory, a lot stricter on memory allocation, no swap files or multitasking and so on, going back to ~8+ year old hardware.

    Would you really make the game photo realistic with a 2km draw distance, fully detailed shadows for that draw distance and so on, if 70% of sales from the finished / baked game will need all that stuff 'turning off'


    i'm trying to figure out why this 'new game' that TSW3 is , still has the old games very restrictive draw distance that makes things look so crap,
    Especially as the specs for PC have jumped massively from something most people have, to something only those who have ~2 grand to spend on upgrades can get to meet the recommended specs thing.
     
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  15. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Something about the lighting in this picture looks very off.

    Given the position the sun is in, you’d expect long drawn shadows given the low angle the sun is at, no? You’d also expect the sides of the trains to be dark too, given the sunlight is on the opposite side.

    Yet it seems the trains are being fully illuminated by an invisible light source. Something with has plagued TSW for years.
     
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  16. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I knew you’d see it straight away! No shadows, no darkness where it should be, 2D trees that are standalone in the world affecting nothing and affected by nothing, locos & trains that are lit independently of everything else around them and so on.

    The sun clearly has zero effect on the world, so if it doesn’t how is this ‘new’ lighting working? It looks very much to me like it’s all faked again. If that’s not the case maybe someone from DTG would care to comment on exactly what is going on here because if you didn’t know better you would say this was TSW2.

    ps Additionally, as the sun is disappearing below the horizon, why are there no lights on?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
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  17. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    As much as I have my reservations about the lighting model, I quite liked most of the comparison screenshots they showed in the live stream (I know the same shots are available on the website but I have a better impression when seeing them on my bright TV screen, on which I also play). The darker shadows are good, as long as they also resolve detail and don't become crushed, like they frequently do in TSW 2. The brighter scenery is also welcome. I especially love the screenshot where the camera is looking outside from London station, and the outside world in the background looks almost blown out. That's what it should look like, it's much less "flat" than the generic lighting in TSW 2. I've noticed in many games that even if the scenery is a bit overexposed, it still provides a more realistic look than a darker, more restricted version.
     
  18. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    With DTG’s track record I would put money on those shots having been photoshopped. I might be wrong, but I’d definitely put money on it.
     
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  19. Cael

    Cael Well-Known Member

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    Of course, that should be the number one priority. Making sure user-created content in a game about trains doesn't contain highly dangerous words like "passengers" and "class" :D
     
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  20. dreampage

    dreampage Well-Known Member

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    That is something we will see in a week. Next Thursday is the German route preview, I'm most curious about that one!
     
  21. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. I could still be tempted to buy it but the lighting is the absolute deal breaker for me. Unless it is right (and by right I don’t mean that picture) then it will remain a hard no until it is.
     
  22. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Regarding lighting, the most worrying preview image to me is this one from the game's Steam page.
    [​IMG]
    It's clear that the eye-adaptation is still not working properly. It's the same issue we had in Sherman Hill, where the outside is overly bright when we are in the cab.
     
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  23. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    With out trying to upset the console community can pc players be given a greater variety of graphics settings please dtg? Most of my pc games have dozens of different settings to adjust. Like draw distance etc...
     
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  24. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    we were told before that adding new sliders to the menu was not easy to do, as the menu ui had become too fragile in TSW2...

    So now TSW3 has a new menu UI, this should be possible, all the stuff to change view distances works via text commands in the .ini files... so a button / slider that you move that writes the relevant text to the .ini files shouldnt be too hard to implement? should it?


    can't see how these sorts of features should upset the console crowd... we need these settings on the PC as no 2 people has the exact same hardware, and it can vary greatly.

    with the consoles, it's known in advance exactly how much memory, it's speed, processor, storage drive and so on, so there's no need for these tweaks as the game maker just finds a setting that works and sticks to it.

    Tho i don't get why consoles cant have a few sliders / buttons to choose if they prefer a smooth gameplay with slightly rougher graphics, or great graphics but at the risk of (more) stutters etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2022
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  25. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    News flash: for the region and season, that's accurate. Blindingly bright sunlight, esp. if your irises are adjusted to the reduced lighing inside the cab. Sunglasses aren't merely a fashion accessory, but a necessity.
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    As a console player, I agree that PC players should at least have the option
     
  27. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    But most of the time you are looking at the outside through the cab, so your iris shouldn't be adjusted to the inside this much (as it is adjusting to what you are looking at, not just what is surrounding you). And this is not a good effect anyways, as totally ruins the in-game visuals.

    Interestingly this effect is only an issue at Sherman Hill and now this route. Cane Creek is also a hot and bright route, yet it doesn't have this effect, as far as I can remember. So unless the game is giving me a toggle sunglasses option or you're expecting me to play the route with sunglasses on (which I highly doubt would help, lol), I say this is an issue as it totally ruins the visuals in the game.
     
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  28. Winzarten

    Winzarten Well-Known Member

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    No it is not, DTG looks to be replicating the same mistake, that many games trying to do "eye adaptation" fall to. They are simulating a camera, and our eyes are not cameras. One of the things our eyes (and brain) can do is to compensate for uneven brightness in our vision cone. I can look out of the window, and all, the furniture inside my flat, the building on the other side of the road and the very bright sky are visible in clear detail, and none of them are perceived to be dark, as they are in the image above. I


    Similary, being blinded by exiting the tunnel, as was presented in the road map stream, is not realistic for human eye. Yes, you will feel eye strain, yes, it will be bright. But you will not be blinded when exiting a tunnel... atleast I know that I'm not...and I've driven through some tunnels.

    I've driven on a bright sunny day without sunglasses, and while it was straining, I had no problem reading the dash in my car, or seing detail there, as it wasn't dark...

    Another issue is that the game doesn't really know what am I focusing at. Is it the outside world, or the dash? This is the same issue as with dynamic dof... if I'm focusing on the dash, why is it dark?
     
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  29. gazz292

    gazz292 Well-Known Member

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    i've mentioned before how much i hate that some simulators replicate the view through a camera's lens, with the vignetting, polarization, lens flare, fixed focal points, motion blur, slow aperture response and so on.

    i am sure some of them are recreating what they see from cab ride videos, not thinking that the human who is driving the train sees' things differently to the camera recording it
    i'm waiting for slow strobing LED signal lights... as that's how the camera picks modern LED signals up, due to the digital shutter in a video camera de-synch'ing with the PWM frequency of the LED's in the signals, so the signal lights appear to slowly blink off and back on every now and then in modern cab ride videos, something that is never seen with humans eyes, as we don't have a digital shutter built in... we have a persistence of vision effect.


    As for the exiting tunnel effect... i've driven into the Gotthard tunnel in almost blizzard conditions, ~17km later i popped out into brilliant sunshine, and i was not blinded when that happened, my eyes adjusted pretty darn quickly... if they didn't there'd be lots of accidents at the exit of road tunnels.
     
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  30. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

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    Exactly! That was my first thought when watching the stream the other day. I did drive out of a tunnel yesterday and I could see everything outside of the tunnel when I was inside, and there was no light flash as I got out of it.

    This whole new light system looks more to be just an overexposed environment.
     
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  31. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully they improve that effect. When I exit a tunnel while driving, I am not blinded nor is there some white flash.

    Train drivers have eyes dovetail, not cameras
     
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  32. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    The eyes certainly have to adjust but the effect in-game is totally unrealistic and way overdone
     
  33. dgagnon720

    dgagnon720 Member

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    What about locomotive headlights brightness. Will they be powerful enough to illuminate the scenery in front of the train during the night?
     
  34. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    They've said nothing about headlights.
    They'll likely be just as bad as in TSW2, particularly on the US locos.
     
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  35. dgagnon720

    dgagnon720 Member

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    ok so it looks like I'll wait for TSW4 or 5...
     
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  36. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    They have talked about headlights. They’ve said that the bulbs have been set to manufacturer spec so they should technically be as bright as the real things.
     
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  37. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    And to think i used to think the lighting in Trainz was bad.
    DTG excell in poor lighting compared to N3V.
     
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  38. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    The lighting in TSW was always bad even compared to old Nintendo Games from 1990.
     
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  39. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    If this is true, I apologize. Can you point me in the direction of this comment from DTG.
     
  40. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I think it was on the first stream they did following the announcement. I can’t remember exactly where but Matt definitely talked about it because I remember thinking it sounded pretty cool.
     
  41. joulz75

    joulz75 Active Member

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    What bothers me the most with lightning are the white flash effects inside tunnels in the cabin. It kills the immersion and according to what they showed so far (especially sehs) they are still there. They can marketise their great eye adaptation exiting tunnels but with these issues it's more of a joke...
     
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  42. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    They will probably need a complete new base (end engine) before they will be able to fix the lighting in all aspects, maybe TSW5
     

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