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Dtg, Yellow Card

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by breblimator, May 13, 2021.

  1. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    It times like this I am glad that I have other interest, the H135 helicopter (freeware) update to 0.92 just released and the first commercial helicopter (Bell 47) is available for MSFS2020. So now my frustrations can arise from lack of skill in flying rotorcraft rather than trying to figure out why I got a penalty brake application for going over what should be a 500hz vice 1000hz magnet.

    We have a choice on what to get angry over, would rather get angry over something I can correct, I can always improve my flying skills.
     
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  2. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I advise everyone to focus on other hobbies too rather than get mad at a game, you can go away and come back later, there are other ways to enjoy trains. Honestly, if anyone hasn't, take a break from TSW and watch Don Coffey's videos on youtube instead, put em on a 50-inch screen and it's like driving a real train yourself with a friendly instructor, you learn all sorts about British signaling and railway history, and you can eat at the same time xD.
     
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  3. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that their QA process is more focused on keeping the likes of Sony and Microsoft happy that any given release is not going to destroy someone's Xbox rather than does the content actually work.

    I gave up raising tickets through the support system long ago because it was clear from the responses that they were not being read properly and that somebody was just firing off the "reinstall everything" email so that could marked on their system as dealt with.

    The lack of PZB testing is nothing new, I recall Matt P previewing a German steam route for the original TS a number of years ago (can't remember the name now) and discovering that the PZB was completely broken. If I recall correctly, Matt subsequently found out it was because nobody tested the route with PZB on. It remains broken to this day.

    I do feel sorry for Matt and Adam having to deal will all of these issues all the time. Its been said before, there is something seriously wrong with the QA and release processes within DTG. I just cant see how all of these very basic gameplay problems are not being picked up, when the community are finding them within minutes of release. The BR363 journey mode has been broken since release, a set patch notes about six months ago promised the red box throttle issue on the Baby Bullet was fixed, it wasn't and is still broken today.

    We do seem to be heading back to the bad old days, where content is being released increasing the broken. The whole roadmap has becoming more and more irrelevant when they stopped acknowledging and listing bugs and bug fixes so we now longer have any indication of DTG are even aware of the issues.
     
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  4. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Reading you bold statement on some else competence, I think it is wise to be very careful calling people incompetent. You cannot know the competence level DTG is requesting from customer services employees. To be honest, form my experience in big companies with large customer services departments my expectations are not very high.

    You might have provided a better description of the issue. A good bug report should state:

    - What are you driving, specify service, departure time and so on
    - Which behaviour did you observe in which conditions
    - What is the expected behaviour

    From your post it is not clear at all that you wrote this all down. I am not so surprised you get the question to clarify your report, completely independent of the competence level of your pour victim at DTG customer service.
     
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  5. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line: Clinchfield released over a month ago. DTG have been stumbling ever since. And Mass Effect Legendary Edition released today. Ergo.......
     
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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The problem with enumerating Steam reviews is that there is no common standard for them, and some people will up-thumb things that others find intolerable, and others will down-thumb things that most find to be trivial nitpicks. An example is right there above: Clinchfield is the best DLC route released in the TSW2 era, bar none (despite it, too, having bugs)- but only gets 68% positive on steam, either because certain reviewers simply hate slow freight routes, or certain others are whining over absurdly picayune things.
     
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  7. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    While I personally would disagree in regards to Clinchfield being the best, I sure know how ridicolous some reviews are. But frankly that does not change the overall rating that you will see on the steam page. And usually you do see a tendency on if a product is more on the positive or negative side. Also what one person might not like might be fine or perfect for others, which should end up in the average tonus of a product.
    For example, I am still buffled that the LGV route has such high reviews, and Southeastern is still mediocre. From what I have seen on the forums, I expected Clinchfield to be at least in slightly positive.
     
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  9. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    When the subject of the ticket says "DB BR 182 Loco Add-On" I think it's pretty obvious what he is driving. "LZB Ende confirmation does not work" is also pretty self explanatory, and you can guess the expected behaviour is for it to work...
     
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  10. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Unless you know your way around German safety systems, "LZB Ende confirmation does not work on the BR182" means absolutely nothing. It wouldn't surprise me if the person on the recieving end of a support ticket doesn't know their way around German safety systems. A dev may know what it means, but the person on support probably won't know that, so asked for more information given DTG wants as much info about an issue as possible.
     
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  11. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    As a customer, I stopped worrying about how support should know what LZB is. This is a DTG problem, not mine.
    Knowledge of the product is essential, even in the local grocery store. BR o7
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  12. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I don't know german safety systems either, but it doesn't take more than 3 IQ to realize that if the issue is "x is not working" then the expected behaviour is for x to work. Even if them as a customer support employee don't know what it means, they can still easily document it by using the exact same words.

    Or you expect OP to write a full documentation about how the safety system works for it to be a good ticket?
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well then how can they be working for customer support if they don´t know the basic german safety systems or safety systems in general. So I guess now when I write a ticket about ATC on the M7 for example not working, or sifa on a DB BR 406 ICE3M not working for example, I have to write several paragraphs to explain what sifa and atc is? That makes no sense. If they don´t know what a safety system is then they should not be in customer support.
     
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  14. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I made more purely informative posts of this type yesterday. Some here are defending DTG, but I know such things from the inside out. Another question would be the size of the shoes. Perhaps it is a matter of lack of training. Disinformation in DTG has been a scourge lately, unfortunately. With all due respect to a great, but also more and more broken game. I'm worried about Rush Hour.

    PS As my colleagues noted above - I am not going to explain anything to support. I report what does not work. Do I have to explain what is LZB? Take pictures? Can I draw something? Indeed, incompetence was probably the wrong word.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  15. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    So am I. Things looked pretty good lately, I mean people loved Clinchfield, Cane Creek also looks really promising, the RT and LIRR fixes were on the way, talk about steam coming, etc.

    Now this new route is also a bit worrysome with the bugs and the far from perfect rollingstock, but I suppose it still looks kinda nice and things like the bad safety system can be fixed in a patch. But the fact that the long awaited preservation crew update for RT and LIRR resulted in... what they resulted in, is really worrysome. I was finally starting to have some faith in them again, and it's gone in a week.
     
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  16. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    This is in my first post. This was to illustrate the chaos that prevails there. I understand that the nomenclature does not suit everyone. OKAY. I shouldn't offend anyone, and I subconsciously did it. But these problems, broken signaling, disappointment with RT update. Half my life I have dealt with customer dissatisfaction. Demanding customers. However much they insulted me, for a good reason, I tried to change something. DTG ignores our calls lately. "If you don't like it, don't buy it" infuriates me. It is unprofessional and I know very well what I am saying, how much I might not want to offend anyone. The worst part is, I'm going to buy HHL right now, although I know I shouldn't be.
     
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  17. Jannerdunk

    Jannerdunk Well-Known Member

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    Same here - 3 new routes to be built and tested in such a short period of time - especially as they indicated that they have not started working on any of the new features yet.
     
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  18. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    "I was driving the BR182 on [insert route here], and at the end of the LZB section, I pressed the PZB Acknowledge/PZB Release button [can't remember which is used] to confirm LZB ende, but nothing happened and it resulted in an emergency brake application [if that even happened]". I'm sorry if that's too much work to type out. A video of what you're doing would also help.

    I agree that makes absolutely no sense that you'd have to explain the ins and outs of a safety system to customer support. Which is why I didn't suggest that.

    If I phoned up the people who made my laptop and said "the keyboard does not work", of course they're going to ask for more information, and I don't know about you but I wouldn't tell them they're bad at their job, put the phone down and rant about the company's customer service on Twitter.
     
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  19. PeteW

    PeteW Member

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    Having worked/managed support teams in the past here is my 2p for what it's worth.
    The job of first level support is to ensure enough information is there to replicate the issue by either a 2nd level support team or the developers. The report of LZB Ende doesn't work is alot lighter on information than it could be. The customer wants this fixed. Giving as much detail as possible is much better to get it resolved as soon as possible. Remember support will get some ridiculous reports which are user error which need to be sorted without wasting much time.
    Cam, with greatest respect, having someone on support who could not either know something about LZB or ask the right person would not a good state to be in. They need to have training on routes/locos etc before supporting them. It's not like it is Joe Public who you are reporting the issue to. So in my opinion the response to the request is just ensuring they have enough information as possible so they don't spend time looking/recreating the issue
     
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  20. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Cameron's Gaming, don't be angry, but you don't really understand. The problem was known to everyone, and these tickets were only intended to show the extent of the problem. If in DTG half of the company confirms, acknowledges, and the other half asks what I mean, then something is wrong.

    PS I will summarize it briefly: I am dissatisfied with the quality of the product and the quality of the service. I express my very subjective opinion here. Trying to prove me wrong will fail.

    Best wishes \o/
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  21. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I really do hope there is a good explanation for all these issues that seem to be happening by dtg because it seems these patches just caused more problems. Wonder why dtg haven´t responded to all the complaints? Why wait until Tuesday?
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  22. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I broadly agree, however, neither Natalie or JD knew much if anything abotu trains before joining DTG, and I wouldn't be surprised if the exact same support team on TSW also covers the Fishing titles and, in the past, the flight sim titles. I wouldn't expect them to know the ins and outs of every aspect of each of those games, and how they compare to reality (in fact I imagine you'd be somewhat hard pressed to find someone interested in all 3 and willing to do customer services).

    If I've missed the point then fairs, but I don't like it if people misinterpret what I mean. If you're just trying to get the figures up, then I'd still provide a little more detail than "this does not work" - after all, how do you know your ticket wasn't the first to be read on the subject?
    I'm not angry, and sorry if that came across in my post.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  23. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Gentlemen (and ladies!), I've already cried out. You are all very nice, and that probably calmed me down a bit. It makes no sense to pursue this topic further. There is a lot of it on the forum now, complaints. I am going to buy HHL in a moment, out of spite, and I will probably refrain from criticism on Steam. Have a nice weekend!
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  24. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    It is sort of like the calls I used to get as a network engineer — trouble call — “the network is slow - fix it!” Well I know it is about the network, and I understand they are dissatisfied with the performance — but I might want a little more clarifying information before I try and trouble shoot — i.e. is it slow all the time, some of the time or just now?

    In this case does the LZB Ende not work on all scenarios with the particular locomotive or only on a few . Does it work on other locomotives on the route?

    When I make a report or request assistance — I never assume the person I am talking with has ultimate knowledge of the situation or environment in which I am experiencing problems so I try and paint a complete picture as possible so they can better assist me. Especially since the first tier support are mostly used as filters to gain the necessary information to direct to the higher tiers as needed. I have found by doing more on my part, I usually get better support. But to each their own I always say.
     
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  25. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    I am growing increasingly tired of endless bugs. I wait in anticipation for each new DLC to be released, only for preview streams to advertise everything that wasn't done, is incorrectly implemented, or doesn't work. As such, I haven't purchased any DLC since the release of TSW2, and will not until the situation significantly improves.

    In no other business world that I have experienced, would a customer buy a faulty product, under the premise that it might be fixed, but we can't guarantee it, or give a time for when that fix will take place.

    Such bizarre working practices seem to have become normalised within DTG. More worryingly, through the roadmap and update streams, it seems that DTG are also trying to normalize the community into accepting this is the way it happens and it's ok for us as customers to experience this, as long as we log a ticket or write on the forums...actions which give very few answers and only aim to passify us, until a fix may eventually happen in the coming years!

    I fully understand and sympathise with people's frustrstions in the fullest.
     
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  26. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they should give tsw the early access tag on steam, then we have no right of complaining and they have an excuse for the mess, problem solved!
     
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  27. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I remember when I wrote a ticket about all the LIRR M3 bugs I could find, not too long after it came out. A pretty well written ticket, in every point I noted what happened, why, and what should happen, etc. Even included pictures of everything that I could.
    A few days later I even got a reply, an actual proper reply, stating that all (except one) of my issues could be reproduced, therefore they were documentet and forwarded to the corresponding team. "Good, hopefully something will happen about them soon then", I tought. Then the first month passed and nothing. Then TSW2 released and still nothing. The M3 never got a patch for more than half a year - even though newly released DLCs usually get at least one patch soon after release.

    And now that the update for RT and LIRR released, the only single entry from my ticket that actually got fixed was the horn being louder with the window closed. Nothing else. Tell me, why the hell are we reporting these problems, when 95% of them will be completely ignored, even when the update is aimed at specifically around that DLC? Or will we have to wait another year or two to get some often game breaking bugs fixed?
     
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  28. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well that works for other game devs, lol
     
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  29. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    It's not good enough is it. I've only played the game for a year, having purchased it to kill some boredom during the first lock down. However, within the first day I experienced bugs on GWE, and when I mentioned it in the forums, the amount of repsones saying "yeah, it's a known bug" etc, was incredible. Judging by the age of that route and how the bugs still exist today, something is clearly not right.
     
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  30. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    I think they believe QA stands for Quantity Control instead of quality
     
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  31. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think they should get some of those above Matt and Sam to try and take some of the questions of their failings rather than these two, Adam, Natalie and Jamie getting all the grief for their deadline pushing.

    Is there a senior manager or QA manager willing to face the community. Do you think they should on a live stream rather than just blowing smoke on how good things are?
     
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  32. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    This is what is needed. Adam’s skeleton team in particular gets all the work piled on them thanks to the failings of others within the company. I feel sorry for them.
     
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  33. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Over to you DTG to listen to your customers and provide a new sacrificial lamb. We like the others too much for them to be off with stress of dealing with us on the stream
     
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  34. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Matt IS the boss. He is the Senior Producer of Train Sim World. He reports directly to Paul who runs the whole shebang.
     
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  35. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Its more complex than that. Take a look at this and this.
     
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  36. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Just why reminds me the whole thread of this...

    (German)

    Everyone in this thread complaining about the BR 182 has seen the last Roadmap-stream,, where Adam reports about broken in-cab lights, not properly implemented LZB (around minute 10) because he hasn´t got a train artist. Despite watching the Roadmap-stream, now everyone is somewhat astonished, that the already known incomplete features of the BR 182 are there...do you really listen to what is said on the Roadmap-streams?
     
  37. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    IIRC he said that the 182 was not ready so we wouldn't be getting the changes until he or his team could fix them. It looks to me that someone else decided to publish the changes anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  38. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    More i read the forum and more I think that DTG definitely doesn't deserve his community.
    When I see the inputs, the feedbacks, the mods (clouds for ex) or the suggestios i really think they are not aware how their community is good in comparison of other games. What a waste
     
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  39. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    In short - I don't think that these people (effectively) exist within the company... quite yet. There are two areas where TSW needs to be significantly strengthened:

    1. Product Development - someone with programme and project management skills, with authority to acquire and deploy/redeploy resources where it is needed, when it is needed. This person needs to understand the "standardised" product specifications, and possibly develop them (and ensure that they are properly documented for 2nd and 3rd party devs), and to be able to understand whether all parts of each specific project have been completed to specification - before products are placed on sale.

    2. QA Manager - someone with TQM knowledge and QA process experience - someone that is able to set out clear success criteria and measure progress towards achieving meaningful targets, and with absolute authority to shut the review gate on any incomplete/broken product that tries to make it out into the wild without being proven to work, as intended in the specification. This person will need to write a QA process for DTG, starting from zero, literally from the ground up (and this does not mean just doing what they do now, without any real changes, as in DTG's use of the phrase "from the ground up") .

    But these people might exist soon, as DTG's hiring list (https://dovetailgames.com/vacancies) continues to grow, and includes the following roles:

    - Executive Producer (TSW): Presumably a step up from "Senior Producer".....?
    - QA Team Lead: Presumably the first time that DTG has flirted with idea of creating a formal QA process....

    So... the future might be brighter. Maybe DTG's private equity investors want TSW to be more successful.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
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  40. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I don't watch anymore. It is necessary? Do you want to explain it to all clients?
     
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  41. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    try the project cars forum. Two mods on there would close a thread and ban you if you wasn’t laying on your back sucking a developers ball. It was sickening and became an awful place when they felt the honour of wmd was on their shoulders when project cars 3 dropped.

    More constructive crowd here and much better mod/dev engagement (my opinion only)
     
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  42. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    Thank god Ian bell isn't on dtg's team.. "look how realistic the trees wave as your train goes past"
     
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  43. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 Well-Known Member

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    Is project cars a game ? For me it is just a complete failure
     
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  44. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    :D

    Good old bell. Let’s hope he doesn’t end up here..

    “Train sim world 3, all the train sim you could ever want”

    Game releases with rocket launchers and wheelslip challenge scores.
     
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  45. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    I do not expect that, but I know OP is quite capable to do that. If you want to report a bug, it would be very helpful to express yourself as clear as possible and not throw the bug over the fence and complain if the person at the other end does not get very enthusiastic to pick it up.

    You also have the choice not to report it and sit angry in the corner in the hope someone will discover why you are so so angry.

    My comments are not intended to do bashing, but if we want DTG to fix issues, it is better to put some effort in it so they are inclined to help or at least to understand the issue. DTG should do more that they are doing now and I agree with at least some other people hanging around here that there are to many issues with DLC and the speed to fix them is far below acceptable standards, but I disagree with suggestions that they are unwilling or that individual service desk employees are incompetent. Don't make it personal, blame the organization not the employee.
     
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  46. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I used to try and go as deep as possible into the bugs and try to pin point a cause, but it's been long since I don't bother, they probabily just save the most essential information on the problem anyway... if a bug is particularly obvious I lost the will to write extensive info on it, for example:

    LZB Ende on RT, just driving the 182 with safety systems enabled will probabily be enough to reproduce the bug, let's not even talk about the S6 issues... also people here in this forum don't like wall of texts will a lot of info, so your meticulously prepared bug report will probabily get buried because writing your opinion on "AFB BUGGED PLS FIX" is more engaging.
     
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  47. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Rudolf, You're a great guy, don't worry. You certainly cannot offend me :) BR o7
     
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  48. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    At least some good news in this misery .... :(;)
     
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  49. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Well, the information, xy not working isn't really explaining itself. Calling the support team member incompetent, by asking for further information - What situation you were on, how do you react, what do you expect the program to do - is somehow rude. He was trying to find out, what was going on to help you, figuring out, if it was a user or a programm mistake. He/she don't know you, so, before going the long way, they should have asked about , what went wrong, and maybe there is a simple explanation/reason for it. And he does. So Nottingham to complain about. I don't really see the point, of what you want to achive by opening this thread.

    Adam stating on the RM-Stream, BR 182 isn't finished yet, but someone decided to update it, stands on another piece of paper. Despite the S6-bug and the missing train artist bugs, the changes to RT were beyond belief -not only fixing some bugs, like erasing the Chuck Norris- Bodycount-achievement on the railroad-crossings on RT - but giving it an additional new timetable, with layering in one other loco, for more diversity (the 143 is not unrealistic to spannender in this area although) without paying for it , is a smart, appreciable move, I think.

    Not modelling a 112 because it looks like the 143? Well at least, it's a train simulator, for some reason, you can't drive the 112 like you would drive the 143. Right now, with some experience on HBL, somehow, it is a new loco, that you will have to learn to feel it. Someone in the forum said, he was refunding HBL, because there was a difference of 3% between the calculated brake distance and the ingame distance. But all in all, the 143-model brakes much faster than the 112. Hmmm...even professional simulators don't take care that much about...braking effort, accelleration, wheel slip, passenger loading time, how much trees are beneath the tracks, the diameter of the brake lever and all the other things...

    Otherwise, with a short look at the community challenge, there seemed to be some amount of hardcore-users of german content, and surely, it won't be a good decision of DTG to lose this hardcore-users by by releasing underwhelming german routes...
     
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  50. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t be surprised if Matt becomes exec producer. No end of companies reshuffling now. It’s common practice to have an internal favourite but dip their toe in the market as a temperature check,
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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