After hearing the announcement of no more being done on steam by DTG, I must say I was quite disappointed to hear that nothing will therefore be done with their current steam trains already released to address their steam related issues I was also quite confused on why DTG have made this ultimate decision ?
I have no experience when it comes to creating games, but I think it came down to 3 things. Buisness and lack of either resources or lazyness. When it comes to Dovetail we know that they can be somewhat unreliable when it comes to authentication. I’ve heard that the physics of steam trains have been iffy when it comes recreating somewhat realistic physics. I think when it comes to buisness strategy, it’s easier to present diesel and electric trains to the wider audience that only knows modern equipment for the most part. Plus I think modern equipment is both easier to operate and get resource material than older steam trains that might be hard to get audio and resources from.
I would imagine that the amount of time and effort to create steam content was not giving them the returns that justify it vs putting those resources into modern day stuff. DTG runs that survey every year and also sees the sales figures for each DLC so they likely see a trend of people wanting the more modern content. Which kind of stucks for steam fans, I was just starting to get into it. I know for me personally even with 100s of hours into TSW I avoided the steam stuff until very recently because I know nothing about steam and the entire thing seemed daunting just looking at all the controls and the fundamental understanding required to operate them. But actually once I did the tutorials they aren't bad at all (partially thanks I think to DTG's simplified simulation). But still if DTG held a gun to my head and forced me to decide between a new steam DLC and a new modern one I'd be one of the people that goes with modern.
As a follow on to the “master” thread I created, have to agree the decision sucks. I mean it won’t stop me playing TSW or buying content that interests me but it’s kind of a kick in the teeth for those who rushed to support SoS and PFR despite harbouring reservations it would probably end up spinning off the Dovetail Flywheel.
Well, they did say that third-parties are massively interested in steam on the Dovetail Live stream the other night. I bet there are a lot of German steam locomotives that people are desperate to see in TSW, so must be a few devs out there experimenting right now, even if DTG aren't that interested.
I don't think they said there would be no more steam content. That would be a very surprising decision given the huge popularity of steam. I think they mean that there are no plans in the future to improve on the physics. I don't have any issue with the current physics myself but I guess the complexity must make it really difficult to get it to the level of perfection much of the community expect.
And that is the entire crux of the problem. No self respecting Pro quality steam developer like Victory Works or Bossman (can't recall their new name) is going to want to subject their high fidelity product to the current poor core implementation.
for the indefinite time being it looks gone that return could be next year or in 20 years or never etc sounded very much like no plans for more steam and no plans to improve anything related to steam by DTG, a full pull out
DTG seems to be mostly ignoring retro trains and routes going forward now in favour of 21st century content. They seem to feel that this outsells the more vintage content, especially with regard to their console players. Matt also stated on this forum that there will be no more retro US freight routes such as Clinchfield again, although he personally enjoys that theme. It looks like steam simply did not make enough money for DTG. It seems they are also bringing diesel to a steam route to try and increase sales (Peak Forest). So sadly for our steam kicks it looks we’re going to have to go somewhere else such as TSC, Railroader and Derail Valley. At least we have steam on the WSR now, unless maybe the third party devs can move in and save the day, but will they make enough profit doing it?
So do all the other devs of retro content across many games. Just because something’s not trundling down the tracks today doesn’t mean it can’t be researched, for example heritage railways and museums. No with DTG everything is about what sells the most.
Hmmm, getting old but found it! That strange statement from just 1 year ago. How did it change that much? From: Dtg's "policy" On Only Modern Content
Not only on steam, also on BR Blue. (And then there was ..... Blackpool Branches.) Granted, this quote is one year old. Many things can happen, but what exactly DID happen?
The Train Sim World is certainly getting smaller, which is sad to me. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but this post by Matt in the Metrolink San Bernardino makes me nervous: It kinda sounds like US Freight is on hiatus as well. Am i misreading? I asked for clarification and didn't get a reply, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Even those can be limited. Museums wouldn't really allow the trains to be run since they are museums. Heritage railways tend to run locos at really slow speed so you're missing the whole soundset
I do enjoy Steam in the game, the only reason I didn't get PFR was that it included the Jubilee and 8F which I already had. Plus the 4F, in the release version, has a limited number of services. Correct me if I'm wrong but also the fact the 4F doesn't layer onto SOS. I'd buy PFR if the new 104 was included in a bundle with it or if it went on sale. it feels like steam suffered Rush Hour syndrome, lots of hype about it but upon release it failed to deliver certain aspects or missed the mark a bit. I think if PFR was released as SOS, and in an era when mainline steam wasn't knocking on death's door, it may have done better. Then worked on a larger express loco for Liverpool-Crewe or a different mixed traffic/freight loco and had all the PFR locos layer onto it. A bit like how Flying Scotsman, a larger express loco, came after both the steam routes. I wouldn't mind if a steam route from TSC was re-created in TSW and cut out the research part since it's mostly already been done. It seems steam has fallen at the first hurdle and it's a shame if they don't continue working on improvements and get the other steam physics working properly, particularly the automatic fireman who shovels like coal is on tap. It's surprising that modern German content doesn't suffer the same fate, the gen 4 Dostos must be the most repetitive piece of returning rolling stock included in new routes as well as a DB/Railion TRAXX loco for freight services. I'm sure it'll be a great route but it's just my own gripe with it.
I agree. We seem to be facing a future of shortish, mostly electric commuter routes with very limited rolling stock on both sides of the pond. This will likely please a majority of players, but disappoint many of us who were not too long ago looking forward to a healthy variety of modern, older diesel and steam traction with a passenger/freight mixture as standard. Will 3rd parties like JT come to our rescue? There's a faint, flickering light at the end of that tunnel, I hope.
As was noted on Dovetail Direct - there are 3rd Parties which are interested in steam. The most reasonable theory is that the time and effort Dovetail need to put in to the Steam Core (which, in itself, offers no financial reward) is simply not economical for them, and as such has just been scrapped. I myself have zero interest in steam but that doesn't mean I don't want to see it. I'd love to see the Big Boy just because... well, it's a B I G boy. I also feel like the German/US playerbase deserve their own steam action - even if it is just one or two locos that railtour everywhere.
Im British but i still think the US deserves at minimum 'Big Boy' Im not keen on steam but I tested one in training centre and it was a rocket thats not right right?
Was that statement before PFR? I suspect that’s part of what put the nail in the coffin for steam, and it was entirely DTG’s own lack of imagination which did that. On the subject of BR Blue, I’d like to see what actually caused the death of it. I struggle to believe NTP did poorly. TVL I can see not doing as well but they released 2 DLC’s for it, so it can’t of been that bad? Now back to steam, I doubt they canned it for sales performance reasons, they only have 2 routes to gauge that from & one of those was apparently very popular. I think DTG hit a wall & simply cannot make it work, in which case fair enough & better that than leading everyone on (which is very much what they have been doing). Some clarification would be nice. If it is sales, then maybe BR Blue & Steam aren’t as unpopular as they’re made out to be, but simply don’t match the sales of modern content. German content seems to be in a similar state, DTG once declared they were going to look at older German content, but that lasted for one release from them (no I won’t count Bremen). Their new DLC is even a nod to them dropping older content, they went out of their way to come up with a way to keep it modern. (Timetable & Route era mismatch). US freight has also pretty much stopped dead in its tracks, with Matt also confirming there will be nothing else like Clinchfield & Class 1 railroads shutting them out. Overall I think it leads to a troubling conclusion IMO - DTG are going to leave anything outside of Modern Commuter content to the third parties, and focus solely on putting out releases that minimises dev time & maximises sales. Anything outside of Modern Commuter content from DTG has dropped off a cliff. One thing I do think that has contributed to the wider issue with TSW though, is that there is nowhere near enough focus on traction development. Trains are being used where they shouldn’t. Consists are missing key components of rolling stock. Layers are being made up of fantasy level services. Routes are being conceived & experiences are butchered based on what is (not) available in TSW’s fleet. all in all, considering how young TSW is, this is not a good direction at all, regardless of what era & gameplay type you prefer.
I always thought similar with Diesel legends and BR, (can’t see how it could been NTP or TVL) surely they shouldn’t base things off diesel legends and peak forest alone, I don’t think I need to tell them how bad of a comparison that would be for BR and Steam sales/interest
Yes, very worrying and echoes my own conclusions. I'm not hearing any DTG spokesperson contradicting this point of view, though actions would speak louder than words
Unfortunately the action from DTG seems to be supporting this theory. It’s all modern & it’s all focused on commuter runs. Many of us here have high praise to JT for BPO, I would like to know how that did against a comparative modern route. I’d imagine DLC’s like that would do quite well.
BPO is a great route and hopefully showed that BR blue is still popular. As with any DLC, it just needs to be done well.
That was my point. I actually agree with you! And as regards the American stuff, if you want the prime mover run sounds you can do it while the loco is static, just record each notch inside the cab and out, use stock bogie and wheel sounds.
Some trains sound different if they are moving vs not moving or they have unique running sounds so you would have players who would still complain it's poor.
Better than not doing at all and again it's better than not having the traction unit in TSW or aliasing to something totally unsuitable. Anyhow this is all going off at a tangent from the main thrust of this thread which is DTG's appalling decision to bottle out of doing anything else with steam traction in TSW.
I know the conventional wisdom is that DTG are masters of their own fate, but I have to wonder about Focus' influence on the decision to end 1st party steam development and " focus " on modern traction, as it seems to have happened fairly recently.
I suppose it’s a catch 22 people complain about steam operations in the sim just now. DTG don’t release anything new steam people complain. So do people want something released on the current level or don’t they. It seems DTG are dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t.
Well, I go back to a comment I made a while back viz: If you put yourself out there as a railroad simulator, you should attempt to cover all manner of traction that exists and has existed in that genre. Steam and diesel have driven railroading for at least 75% of its history, wherever you come from, with the possible exception of commuter rail, an area that DTG seems to be shrinking to.
Funnily enough I was just contemplating that myself. We don't know what influence Focus are really having over day to day operations at DTG (and doubt we ever will) despite assurances at the time of the takeover it was business as usual and they would continue to operate autonomously. Then we had the virtual disappearance of the EP and other top level personnel for nearly six weeks in December and January, so maybe I just have a suspicious mind but something must have gone/be going on.
No not at all, they are just dammed if they release and don’t fix the main issues with steam they can’t expect half done content to sell well
Matt was on extended break. There's nothing suspicious about it. They deserve breaks as much as we do. Focus have no influence on other games they publish. They do not really care. If they did, there wouldn't be great games like plague tale which would most likely not have been possible if focus made them do something that matches their agenda.
There is absolutely no excuse for steam physics still being so bad. Mastering it is clearly too big of a task for their agenda, like many things. I would like to think DTG have realised this and not bothered pushing on with steam until they can get around to sorting it. I for one am not interested in seeing any more streams trains if they will be as dire as what we currently have.
The World does seem to be getting smaller, at least as far as 1st party releases go. Steam seems dead unless 3rd parties save it and the US is also in a dire state with a dubious future for freight and probably no vintage routes. It seems to me that Germany is the only one of the big three on a positive course as far as 1st party releases go. We’re seeing more and more ‘vintage’ or at least older content (BRO, LFR, Salzburg with the 110, n-Wagen+KaKo, 103, and 111) as well as more and more realistic freight content (DRA physics, timetables for BRO and Vorarlberg).
Yeah, as i casual fan of German content, i'm pretty happy. Vorarlberg is really good IMO, especially with the Vectron 193, which gives the 101 a run as the best German loco. I think the upgraded mountain visuals have been huge too. Playing without any in-person experience of Germsny probably adds some rose tinting to my glasses, though- things like the wrong DoSto don't get me mad cause i don't even know it's wrong lol
It is one thing not producing any future steam period content, it is another not fixing what is out there. They are releasing a diesel pack for the PFR yet the steam engines will still have the same issues with physics and the AI hauled steam trains will still be silent. I will be buying it (the diesel pack) as first generation DMU's are my favourite trains but with silent steam engines going about their business it will very much feel like an imperfect DLC. I thought at one point they had found a fix for the silent AI steam engines but it appears not. When PFR was released I am sure I remember Matt getting very excited over the prospect of what other DLC could be produced for it, where has that gone? They were very excited and proud when SOS was released, and rightly so despite its faults so why is the average DTG UK route seeminlyg now going to consist of a commuter line and a EMU. I do like the modern routes but if DTG are going to turn into one trick ponies and just produce modern commuter routes their content could end up getting very stale. Surely with something as historic and varied as railway operations, a simulator should be trying to create as much varied content as possible.
i agree, I think if they just focus on modern emu type stuff they will eventually hit an inevitable point and get a lot of demand for change, I would always say a mix is the best solution from the off
You know, I did a run on SOS today (although I had to leave halfway through), and there is something... different about them. It's a unique experience, which sadly I'm not going to get anymore.
It'd be nice if DTG could at least hold their hands up and say okay we did bad here and apologise. Because they've clearly sold 2 products with a whole handful of false promises which they've tried to sweep under the rug. Im not just on about steam physics here but the countless list of other features and fixes we never got that were promised with the two routes and more importantly used as selling points for the dlc. Because its clearly and quite rightly upset a lot of people who invested in their content and we deserve something more than "nothing is being worked on" and "there's nothing on the roadmap"
I for one am quite ok that DTG aren’t going to be doing any more steam stuff. Whilst I love steam engines in real life, they’re not my cup of tea in TSW. That said, DTG absolutely should fix the current steam engines in TSW. It’s very wrong to abandon those after promises were made that fixes were going to come. If not, DTG should give those who bought steam DLC in good faith some sort of credit towards other content as a gesture of goodwill.
fair enough (the end part very unlikely but anyways I’m not after credit (cash not reputation I suppose not the reputation neither now that I’ve brung that into this now) myself back on it at all tbh, just always pushing for the right thing for TSW and that’s the core fixes in this case. personally steam isn’t my top neither I think it was second of bottom in my choice for the poll, I do like a mix but yes I do favour the modern stuff more (whether that could be influenced by how it’s portrayed in TSW I don’t know) but regardless the fixes should not be left.
