End The Train Simulator Franchise

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by JealousSheep768, Dec 28, 2021.

?
  1. Yes

    47 vote(s)
    30.9%
  2. No

    105 vote(s)
    69.1%
  1. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    Before we get started I know this will be controversial and is unrealistic.
    Train simulator is the sister game to tsw which released in 2009. I believe it should be scrapped because it is well past its sell by date. Technology moves on. In all honesty it should've been discontinued when tsw came out. It is built on an old engine and requires too much development time for a game which is failing and is obsolete.
    Staff could be moved from train simulator to either fishing or tsw2. It will be difficult because it is a completely different game engine and would require new training but would lead to more time spent on train sim world and a better selection of dlc. Development of new DLC should stop first and then eventually it should stop being available for sale. No-one choses it anyway over tsw.
     
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  2. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Can’t see that happening, DTG and other parties have too much time and money invested in their classic franchise.

    That’s not to say TS couldn’t use a rework, the route editor is long due an overhaul make it easier to use, like Trainz Surveyor. We could also do with something like TSW timetable mode rather than relying on half a dozen scenarios, though as discussed previously DTG might not want to undercut the appeal of TSW.

    Unless TSW gets a route editor (unlikely) cutting off TS would force people over to Trainz, or for the real masochists back to MSTS and its Open Rails freeware spin off. Far more dated than TS!
     
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  3. bdlhouston#8691

    bdlhouston#8691 Active Member

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    I think they might slowly start to work less on train simulator and more on TSW
     
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  4. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    At this point TS very much looks like it's in the second position, TSW gets more releases, more often, and that's with it's higher level of detail.

    I've had TS since 2014, and I'd be sad to see it go. However (partially because I have TSW on Xbox, and TS is on PC) I only use TS when I'm bored. That's mostly influenced by TSW's better graphics, the timetable system, and more immersive gameplay (in my opinion).

    However, I think that TS has a few more years in it. It's very outdated in terms of graphics - it's editor is anything but user friendly, and most types of route and train have been explored.

    It's near the end, but not at it. So, i've voted No.
     
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  5. Asheix

    Asheix Member

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    I am by no means a train enthusiast, and I am probably a minority in the community who just likes to play the game as if it were any other. It was discovering the videos by Moleman978 (also DTG employee) on YouTube that got me interested in TS.

    I have 185.2 hours on Train Sim World 2, and I recently went back to Train Simulator (181.2 hours) and it is such a different experience. I am so used to the physics, controls, HUD layout, and visuals of TSW2 that the older TS game looks ancient. It would be difficult for DTG to terminate it as I assume it still has a strong following who want new content. It also has a feature that I think is widely desired by the TSW community, the route builder.

    About a week ago, there was a live stream about a new route for the Chatham Mainline that goes down to Dover Priory, and I was actually disappointed that it wasn't for TSW2. The YouTube notification had only shown Dover Priory and not that it was for TS. But I am sure one day, the entire Chatham Mainline will end up on TSW.

    In the end, I voted yes, but in good faith. I would want to see the legacy of TS being transferred to the future of rail simulation with TSW.
     
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  6. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it works like that.

    Why? Just, why?
     
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  7. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    I heard somewhere this was done but didn't work so was cancelled/removed, it was on a livestream from a third party so don't know if it's true or not but I don't know why they would lie. Before anyone askes I can't remember who it was.
     
  8. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I voted no. I still buy a lot of stuff for TS and in some cases find it more enjoyable than TSW.

    To me they are completely separate. The only common thing is they both have trains (and a large list of bugs). TSW has the fancy graphics but shorter routes + console support. TS2022 has longer routes, far greater choice and I can create decent scenarios myself (which in my opinion you can’t do in TSW).

    Besides that, I suspect it’s quite a large amount of DTG’s revenue stream with the amount of DLC for sale.

    So while I agree the focus should be on the newer product, TS should not be withdrawn while there is still a lot of life left in it.

    I suspect the vote would be different if you posted this on the TS forum!
     
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  9. tardisgaming07

    tardisgaming07 Well-Known Member

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    Majority of PC Players choose TS over TSW, because TSW’s features are a waste of time in addition to being unable to share any real world liveries officially. Also 3rd Party and Route Editor.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2021
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  10. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Well-Known Member

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    TSW is a game you can pick up and put down easily. It has limited flexibility or longevity and it certainly has a poor effort at any personal customisation - and then you can't even share your stuff anyway. For PC users it has a hobbled control system because they couldn't even be bothered to develop one separately. I own both and have owned both since TSW CSX launched. I haven't used TSW2 since a 5 min run on Bakerloo which felt totally uninspiring.

    In contrast I've spent around 20 hours in the last week on TS2022.
     
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  11. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    There isn't a way to share any liveries officially on TS. It's all on 3rd party sites*. There isn't even an official way of creating liveries.

    *Marketplace packs don't count, they're payware.
     
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  12. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    Then why not release it to consoles. Why is it not worth the effort if it sells so well on pc. Why would it not work for consoles?
     
  13. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Because the engine dates to like 2009 or something, the game is designed to it's core for pc (the closest thing to console being controller support), and the engine isn't designed for console.

    Plus, considering Xbox/PS is more likely to end up with more "Casual" players (especially Xbox thanks to Xbox Game Pass), the Casuals will take one look at TS' Graphics, turn around, and leave.
     
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  14. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    Shows its outdated
    Further proof that it's outdated and probably isn't selling well to new customers. The game is simply outdated
     
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  15. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Twisting my point, I almost like it.

    Nobody will sit here and say the graphics are good. However graphics mean nothing to me, and I'd imagine they don't to the people who still enjoy TS.

    I recently picked up the Halo MCC - all those games are old, with Two (Halo CE and Halo 2) being older than TS. I was initially thinking "oh, this doesn't look great...".

    A few weeks later, I'm absoluetly hooked on Halo, and those games I look back on as "bloody hell that was fun".

    TL:DR, Graphics don't matter, if you like the game.

    ----------

    Also, TS has factors TSW doesn't.

    It has so much variety - 12 years does that.
    It has Steam - TSW doesn't yet.
    A public editor and a vibrant 3rd Party & Freeware Content scene.

    So, TS can stay as long as it wants if you ask me.
     
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  16. Ben_Broomfield

    Ben_Broomfield Well-Known Member

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    Have to fully disagree;

    It mite be ‘old’ and looks less impressive than TSW, but from a simulation and enjoyment point of view, it crushes TSW.

    I’ve been playing Train Simulator since the very beginning, and had never really gotten to a point where I’ve got bored with the content produced for it. With TSW, it’s the total polar opposite.

    The game ain’t “failing” or “obsolete”, it’s still one of the go-to simulators for Train Simulation which TSW has tried & failed (many times) to replicate, with the content produced so far for it.

    It’s mainly the 3rd parties that are keeping the TS game alive, without them it would be a resemblance of TSW. But just look at the content being produced currently for TS and compare the standard to a TSW DLC, it’s in a totally different ball park.

    I know graphics are one of main things people nowadays look for and to be honest they ain’t that bad at all, it can still look damn decent although TSW has that advantage being build in Unreal. Although I’d rather have TS graphics and top notch simulation compared to TSW.

    Again these are just my opinions but I think TS is far from over, although if something needed to be discontinued it should be Fishing Sim World!
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2021
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  17. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    This has already happened during the last few years, and I only think they have a small team still working on TS, which is mostly just focused on route building.
     
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  18. d.heal

    d.heal Active Member

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    No it like both games.
    The both have there own gems
     
  19. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Mind you and somewhat ironically in light of what I said earlier, can't remember the last time I fired up TS for a drive as opposed to TSW. Certainly a few months ago and I have routes in there I haven't even driven the full length of. In some ways TSW is a bit like all those missions and contracts over the multiple maps (if you have both DLC's) in Snowrunner, in that with Timetable and Journey mode it is going to be a long time before you can finish every single run and by then something new has come out in addition. Same thing happened to me in Snowrunner, finished Michigan and Alaska but only about 60% done with Taymyr and barely scratched the DLC (I keep coming back to TSW!).
    It's all about time, too - do you have a quick blast in TSW which can be done in a couple of sessions, if the save game doesn't cuss up, or back for numerous resumes in TS?
    So on reflection, if TSW can diversify away from the current regional structure and start getting more variety (i.e. not another Electrostar route for the UK or Dostos for Germany) plus a decent scenario and timetable editor for the user base then, just maybe, TS will be a little more redundant.
     
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  20. Amtrak_Fan

    Amtrak_Fan Well-Known Member

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    I think they should slow down production on ts but not completely stop it, the variety in ts is insane (almost 600 dlc!) and I doubt that if they suddenly stop producing some to take some time to work more on tsw 2 then almost all the playerbase would whine about it. There are so many routes, locomotives, and scenario packs so that if you get bored you can try something different! They shouldn't stop producing stuff for it, just slow it down when they need to work on TSW 2
     
  21. tardisgaming07

    tardisgaming07 Well-Known Member

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    And that’s only on steam, there’s hundreds of 3rd party devs, something which TSW doesn’t have in the same number, although Just Trains make a welcome addition to TSW devs.
     
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  22. mfeets

    mfeets Active Member

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    Better graphics don't mean a better game... Ts has way better variety and gameplay, so no.
     
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  23. CrazyDash

    CrazyDash Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't mean shutting down TS for good. He just means DTG should stop producing routes for the game.
     
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  24. Blacknred81

    Blacknred81 Well-Known Member

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    No. PERIOD.
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well as any updates to the game are funded by DLC, then either the core updates will have to be paid for (as happens with N3V and Trainz) which would not be popular, or there would be no money in the budget to work on it. I suspect many of the routes DTG sell are in any case produced by affiliates and third parties, not their own studio.
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    TS1 might be old but there is plenty of life in it yet. Third parties are still actively developing for it. The graphics can look very good, some of the most recent routes are not that far behind TSW in terms of looks especially when you start adding enhancement packs.

    Also you can create realistic operations spanning the steam age up until modern times and mould the sim how you want. You don't have to put up with unrealistic loco's and formations on routes such as WCL and the Western "Legends" pack on GWE.

    I enjoy both but it will be a long time since I stop using TS1, in fact if I had to stop using one it would be TSW. TSW is great for diving in and having a drive but TS1 beats it hands down for its scenario editor and amount of content.
     
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  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Several dodgy suppositions here...

    TS still sells well enough for DTG themselves to be producing DLC, and making sidealong copies of the game like the Great British Railways pack a couple of years ago (Linked ot a UK TV show of that name). So it's not "dying", even if it does have less DTG releases than TSW does (where of course DTG has a controlling monopoly anyway)

    Staff can't just "be moved" from one system to the other either, as they're coded on very different platforms. TS uses DirectX 9 as a base (with overlays on newer DX versions), TSW is based on Unreal Engine. ie they're utterly different not only in their design, but in the basic programming ecosphere they operate in. It would be like asking someone who codes websites to look at a solution for the Hubble Telescope. Just because "they're both programming languages" doesn't mean people can move from one to the other

    The DX9 thing is also why TS can't be "released on consoles". PS doesn't use DX, and if Xbox does then it would be a newer version such as 11 or 12, and the jump would be bigger than going from UE4.16 to 4.23 (which happened between TSW2020 and TSW2 for those who don't know)

    Another thing you have to allow for is that there are many people who want "a game where they drive trains for a bit", ie they want to load something up, drive for about half an hour to an hour, finish somewhere they comprehend and then go and do something else with their lives. TSW suits this very well... TS is a whole different kettle of fish. You can spend hours in the game really working hard and never drive a train. You can be in the editor drafting a new livery or the scenario editor placing 1000 trains in real life scenarios and timetables and then actually pass those onto others
    The fact that one of the largest third party websites for asset, route and scenario packs is run by MattP's dad might go some way to say something about that

    And of course there's the third parties. Now I'm the first to say that the 3rd party scene in TS is a pile of tosh that needs setting fire to, but at least it means if you want a train from a certain era, you're likely to find something that suits, in a livery from the time with a carriage that works as well.

    And that's something TSW doesn't even have pipe dreams about yet and probably never will

    Now before anyone comes on and starts saying I'm a fan boy or lover of the game, I will confirm I've spent hundreds of pounds on TS over a 5 year period. I have thousands of Mb of downloads of assets, enhancement packs etc etc
    But
    In 2021 I have logged ZERO hours on the platform, whereas I have over a thousand on TSW

    Why? Simply because of that "get in and it works (kinda)" thing that TSW has. TS has all of the bugs that TSW has, but one thing TSW has is a fixing and testing team, Adam's preserved collection team and regular updates and fixes.
    TS doesn't have that and routes almost always get left with bugs or signalling errors, missing limits, one way track on sidings etc etc that just leave you feeling bitter when you've spend dozens of hours trying to perfect a scenario only to find one thing that screws you over

    So no, I don't believe "TS is dead". As a hobby for PC train enthusiasts it very much is alive in lots of ways, and certainly there's enough scope within DTG to have both.
     
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  28. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    I don't think DTG should stop producing for TS. A lot of people I talk to on various forums and rail live streams play the game and have an interest in it, more so than TSW.
    I play both TS and TSW because they both have different play styles and content. TSW is more arcadey whereas TS seems more sim like.
    TS22 has so much more DLC out there to play with, especially UK routes from both DTG and 3rd parties. AP enhancement packs add so much more realism to TS22.

    Yes, graphics can seem dated on TS22 because of it's age but a lot of new routes (particularly from Just Trains or even ATS) look just as good as TSW but are much longer (especially with merged routes which is something that TSW also cannot do).

    I enjoy both sims/games. TSW because it's available on PlayStation and TS22 because there's so much more available for it.
     
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  29. fabdiva

    fabdiva Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure development on the TS Classic core has stopped or is bare minimum, but with a large and still active userbase it doesn't do any harm to continue developing content, and a lot of the TS Classic content is third party. And I'm pretty sure the sales cover the costs of maintaining support.
     
  30. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    Taken from both lgv routes[​IMG] [​IMG]
    Taken from both Dresden routes
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
  31. smugstarlord#4202

    smugstarlord#4202 Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be an idea to release TSxx on consoles. Maybe call it Train Simulater Classic or something.
    I doubt they would get rid of I completely, it's still well lived despite the older graphics and UIs etc
     
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  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They can't. the game engine isn't supported on any console
     
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  33. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    So? Tbh the screenshots you showed actually makes me considering to buy TS as well. For a core this old it's a very solid experience. I don't think we'd have gotten Dresden-Riesa if it wasn't that big of a success in TS.
     
  34. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    So gen 8 consoles are outdated according to most people here and yet a game which is so outdated it cannot run on it is still in its sell by date
     
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  35. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Old does not equal bad.

    The difference between Gen8 consoles is they can't cope with larger things such as Brighton Mainline, and as Gen9 rolls out, they will be left behind. Technology Progresses. The Gen8 consoles are still really good consoles, however games now begin to demand the Gen9 console's power, memory, etc.

    As for TS, it's a game. It runs on PC relatively well, and there are people who love it.
    I don't see what benefit you, or anyone in TSW's - our - community gets from seeing TS go down the drain. TSW already has priority anyway.

    Go over to the TS forum, ask them and you'll see why DTG shouldn't finish TS off.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
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  36. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    It is. For TS2021 I think DTG made 4 route DLCs themselves, all the other releases are from 3rd parties.

    And?

    The fact TS1 is old doesn't have much of anything to do with why it's not playable on consoles - the engine was specifically built for TS1 to be used specifically on PC.

    Don't even need to ask them, mention TSW and they'll think you're from some form of satanic cult (I've literally seen people over there refer to TSW as "the dark side", they also refer to TSW as "Track Side Walker" because they don't like the fact you can walk around and seemingly haven't figured out you can complete almost all services without walking around, or even getting out the seat, also they say TSW is full of needless gamey things like scoring and achievements, forgetting they're also in TS1).
     
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  37. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Even worse at Trainsim dot com where I just had to refute someone referring to both TS and TSW as “arcade games”. Probably fell on stony ground as TS dot com has evolved into the Open Rails adulation society. Now I have nothing against OR and use it myself occasionally. It has given a new lease of life to many old MSTS routes, but is no substitute for modern sims utilising the latest technology.
     
  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is saying that Gen8 consoles are upto date, nor is it true that both are completely rubbish just because they're old, and I'm sure many people would be happy with a PS4 if they had never played with one and if they're expectations were lower, this is also true of TS.

    If you want glossy graphics and to be able to stand up then TSW is your thing. If you want to drive a 400 mile scenario or download 10,000 different assets from countries across the globe or to author your own scenarios pretty much without limit then you get TSC

    But the point being made is that TS is old and should be discontinued, which to me is like someone saying "Hey, the original mini is old so they should stop making spare parts for it. Force people to buy a prius instead"... Old may mean "less sparkly and shiny" but it doesn't mean useless
     
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  39. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    While I do want it to end i can actually think of one thing which is good. AP
     
  40. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    But we are not talking about spare parts. We are talking about recontinuing something to the original design with no new features and nothing modern about it. It's a bit like producing new original mini's but to the exact same specifications
     
  41. mfeets

    mfeets Active Member

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    Is it? All that's being done right now for TS are DLC, the core is receiving no update and DTG will only put a few bucks into it near the end of the year. It's like keeping the same core but creating new paneling to make it look nicer.
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Difference is that TSC is regularly moving forwards in several ways, so maybe you're just not noticing
    And to clarify, ATS and AP are doing some good work on making sure that the routes and assets they put out are at least a B+, if not quite an A
     
  43. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I've barely played TS compared to TSW but if its still making money for DTG then why stop?
     
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  44. Trainiac

    Trainiac Well-Known Member

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    TS still has lots of 3rd party content being made for it, I think in most cases the 3rd party content is better than what DTG can produce which maybe is why people choose to stay on TS rather than move over to TSW, and the added fact that there isn't even a public editor to use so they’d be stuck waiting for potentially mediocre DLC to be released like us rather than having a go at route building themselves.

    There's also a lot that TS does that for some reason TSW doesn't, some might say it's more immersive and more detailed. If TS were to be discontinued, I think a lot of people would just leave the community rather than switch. Besides TS adds revenue to DTG’s pockets so why discontinue it?
     
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  45. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody chooses TS over TSW? I think you might find it's more likely to be the other way around among PC users and I'm saying this as someone who prefers TSW.

    TS has been around for a long time now and is kept alive thanks to the vast amount of DLC it has, the huge community and third party developer addons from those such as Armstrong Powerhouse, Alan Thomson Sim, Just Trains, etc. The main reason I can see that the majority of TS players haven't completely moved to TSW is the decision DTG had to make with the editor. There are a lot of people in the TS community who prefer to create rather than play, these members of the community won't move over to TSW because of how limited it is on the creative side - both Livery Designer and Scenario Planner won't cut it, they want tools to make routes and locos too and the former tools as they are right now are extremely limited in scope.

    There are also itches that TSW doesn't scratch at the time of this post. Those mainly being 100+ mile runs and steam locomotives. We know steam is in development but I think we're a while off 100+ mile TSW routes, assuming they ever come at all. I personally wonder if that's the reason we've yet to see an ECML or WCML route - if there are any routes that deserve 100+ mile runs, it's definitely these two.

    DTG are extremely limited in what they can do with TS - one tiny adjustment to it's core could cause it all to collapse and then they would have to backtrack through 10+ years worth of DLC to make sure it all works. It's fragile on the programming side from what I understand, this is likely the reason they haven't ported it to console. It's nothing to do with whether a console is good enough, it's the fact that the engine wasn't optimised with consoles in mind back when TS began. It's not even optimised to take full advantage of modern PC hardware - the only update it's received recently to core is "fastload" and it's the best thing TS core has received in a long, long time.

    TS is still going strong regardless, there's absolutely no reason why DTG should cancel it immediately and take it off sale. It's a good source of profit for DTG and it's easy to see that majority of TS profits are being put back into TSW development rather than TS. It doesn't get the fraction of 1st party DLC releases that TSW does. Like I said above, it's mostly the third party side that keeps TS alive now, not DTG. The team looking over TS is so small that if they forced that team over to TSW, it would barely speed up TSW development like you expect it to.

    Train Simulator should not end, the game still plays fine and there's no viable reason as to why it can't to exist alongside Train Sim World.

    The only thing I'd like to put an end to are the petty comments you sometimes see online over how "my sim is better than your sim" or "your sim is a game whereas mine is a proper sim"

    My question to you is, why do you want TS to end? I mean by your logic, shouldn't DTG ditch TSW Gen 8 support because Gen 9 is here now and technology has moved on?
     
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  46. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    The OP simply wants more content for TSW (don't we all), though having the few remaining TS developers moving to TSW at the expense of losing new content flow for an older game (that still maintains a large audience BTW) wouldn't make much of a difference IMO. DTG would be better off hiring more new developers, which they currently are.
     
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  47. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I believe the number of developers working on TS1 is in the single digits. I have a feeling when they inevitably do stop production on TS1, those people will be given a choice: move to TSW, move to the fishing title, or take redundancy/retire. Let's be real here, even if they all moved to TSW, it's not going to make a blind bit of difference.

    I would like to point out two things:
    1. I've spent the last 5 or 6 hours slowing developing a 1990s scenario on the West Coast Main Line - no way would I be doing that using TSW's so-called tools (it's like building a shelf with drill-shaped marshmallows instead of an actual drill/screwdriver).
    2. On a specifically TSW forum, 'No; TS1 shouldn't be discontinued' is comfortably winning as I type this - I think that says quite a lot.
    upload_2021-12-29_21-25-15.png
     
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  48. tardisgaming07

    tardisgaming07 Well-Known Member

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    might be because people from the TS side have come over to vote against this?
     
  49. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Does it matter? There is still a strong agreement that TS is here to stay.
     
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  50. Matthew Wilson

    Matthew Wilson Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's clearly not true. Although terrible, Train Simulator 20XX has been bundled with Package Manager pretty much since it launched and this enables people to share reskins, scenarios and routes made for it - there's even documentation on it somewhere out there. There are also official tools such as RSBinTools which were made with the express purpose of decompiling and recompiling .TgPcDx files that are used by the sim and I believe that is also a piece of software that was either included or released with the express intention of allowing people to make reskins of various textured items. Then we have Blueprint Editor, this allows the user to export their own textures into the simulator after creating them, and that is definitely an official tool designed to enable user created content to get into the sim, via use of Package Manager if you want to take the official route. And of course, Blueprint Editor is where people like AP build their entire locos from the ground up, so saying theirs no official way of doing stuff for TS20XX is woefully inaccurate.

    DTG may not advocate or promote the application of 3rd party content to TS20XX these days, but to say there aren't any official methods available to do so is just an complete mistruth.

    Just because access to the reskins aren't bundled in through the simulator UI doesn't mean that there isn't a way to get them into TS from 3rd party sites.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
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