Excuse For Dtg Not To Produce Longer Routes.

Hi DTG Alex
Just want to get this out but in this response in towards ' Will we ever get longer routes from DTG?' It just seems to get an excuse for Dovetail not to produce on want some/most of the community want, we can't just always rely on third party's to do longer routes all the time that just ain't far as it can put pressure on them, It has took till JT for them to give us a really long high speed route, they have a great team and a smaller team I believe? I don't mean any disrespect at all it just seems like a blatant excuse for DTG not to bother with longer routes, you got a big team and very experienced team who can do a long route and in good quality and quicker time span.
This is how I feel about it, how do others feel about it?

 

If you want passion driven projects that offer a lot of value, then you just have to wait for Third Party releases.

DTG is just a commercial conveyor belt at this point & I wouldn’t expect anything other than 20-50 mile, 2015+ MU focused routes.

If the community at large wants that to change, then its buying habits need to change. If the majority buys bug ridden, short modern AC routes, then that’s all DTG are going to sell. They aren’t going to risk going out on a limb to do something else, it’s just the nature of large companies.

 

That is what I am loving about the Third party routes, Passion loads of Passion so I totally agree with you, they give us proper value for our money with the quality.
Thanks for replying!

 

I think there's a place for everything, long routes and short routes. I think DTG did really well with ECML at 75+ miles, however i do actually think they could have gone further and extended one stop up to York, something i still hope will be worked on someday soon that would give us the first DTG 100+ mile UK route.

on the other hand shorter routes absolutely have a place for me, the upcoming Cardiff network is the future release i'm most looking forward to, that for me has a lot of potential.

i think the quality has to be the aim, especially in regards to timetable etc as look at WCML south, fortunately thanks to player feedback that is being drastically improved (credit to DTG for accepting it wasn't acceptable in the first place and working to rectify it)

in terms of longer routes, my number one wish would be the Kyle of Lochalsh Line (approx 80 miles), and that would actually not rely on a busy timetable at all (it's only a handful of services per day across the full route, with more running just Inverness-Dingwall), that would be a great route to make as it's a completely full end to end route, amazing scenery, and it doesn't need a whole lot of time dedicated to creating a busy timetable.

so i guess what i'm saying is i'd love to see longer routes (extending Doncaster to York would be my absolute priority), but shorter routes when chosen well (like Cardiff) definitely have a place, especially on those ever more frequent occasions where i at least don't have a few hours to spare to play the game, so a 30 minute drive is all i have time for, Cardiff Network will fulful it's role really well in that respect!

 

I wonder who the main audience is for creating new routes and other content and I think it comes down to TSW being marketed more towards casual gamers who want to look at stunning scenery, take aerial shots of the distant scenery, collect stuff, gather gameplay points, but who would actually get bored if all they had to do was drive a train in a realistic fashion including with correctly functioning signalling, safety systems and real life driving procedures.

On this forum there are lots of railway enthusiasts who want a realistic train simulator and get frustrated by the loss of realism even compared to some Train Simulator Classic content. The reality is that we are likely a minority of the customer base, and perhaps DTG people themselves would actually like to do more of what we are interested in.

With the takeover of Focus did we all notice all the new Train Sim World branded games coming out that are not realistic train simulators?
The audience is clearly causal gamers as that's were the money is.

I'm looking forward to the Preston to Carlisle route from Just Trains but as for what to do about the other problems I think we need something more radicle. Perhaps a companion simulator could be the answer where we have both TSW and the third party simulator sharing content but offering an extension so for example: We want Edinburgh to Aberdeen so we buy and install TSW and the Rivet Games Fife Circle add-on, and then the other simulator installed alongside uses that content as a starting point for the Aberdeen route which would be devoid of collectables, the scoring system and perhaps even the ability to leave the cab. DTG and Rivet would make money as per usual as we would need their content, then the third party simulator uses the content in a different manner for example: you start in the cab, all safety systems are on, TPWS magnets are all active, signalling is prototypical and you do a realistic section of a real driving diagram perhaps spending two and three quarter hours driving a service; heavenly for railway enthusiast, hell for casual gamers.

I wish I had the technical knowledge and a ability to start a project of this nature as I am certain that TSW is never going to be the ultimate railway hobby and I can't even think of a feasible way to achieve that either. When WCML came out with TSW 5 I intended to make some video content about the route and ended up doing all of it in Train Simulator Classic. I really hope that there is a future for Train Simulator Classic because it actually compliments TSW quite nicely in my opinion.

 

So DTG spend extra months making a route for a certain country, leaving everyone else in limbo. It’s just not possible for them

 

For me, if a route needs to be long, do it long.
If it needs to be short, make it short

But don't cut a route off at a random location if it would be better served as a longer or shorter route.

East Coastway would have been better going to Hastings, Peak Forest would have been better going to Derby, but on the flip side, West Cornwall local would have been better ending at Truro and then include Falmouth branch as well.

 

Interestingly, it originally did but Rivet decided to use some spare time & extend out to Austell (ironic considering the route got delayed).

That route was cursed from the get go, with all the setbacks they had. They must have really had to force that to release.

In general though I just like my routes to make sense, from there they need the required amount of time to get the quality right.

 

I would like to adress the buying habits of us players. First: I havn't bought a route for TSW 5 because of lacking length (WCML), and interest (the rest of the routes so far). But ... (big but) if fx DTG would offer a route from Kiel to Eckernförde, (about 30km but the RB terminal, despite it goes to Flensburg about 100km) and put a Lint onto it, I totally would buy it just because of the train and the region. Would I complain because of the length, for sure, but at least I could drive a train I want in a region I want. I think, train/loco and region are very important factors for players and length not so much.
PS:
Hey DTG, if you ever think of publishing my example, don't you dare making it only to Eckernförde!

 

Or, you know not everybody likes driving 50 year-old stuff all the time, and appreciates variety. But that's ok just continue to be condescending, i'm sure that will convince people.

 

I'd agree. It's console player and casuals for the most part. It's at least 80%, if not 90%.
The issue with "another more realistic train simulator" is two-fold.
One.... there are already others out there (Run 8 for example)
Two... it's a tiny part of a tiny market. On this forum there seem to be a lot of rail sim gamers, but compared to gamers in general it's a tiny amount. There is a finite market. Now if you want to exclude 80-90% of the market further, how big is your market really?
I don't know how accurate it is, but SteamDB shows how many are on Steam at any one time.

https://steamdb.info/franchise/Train+Sim+World/

According to that, it's about 1,200 people playing at any one time.
Now that isn't the same people of course... but it gives you an idea.
Now if 20% of players are on Steam (PC) then let's mutliply that by 5.
So let's say 6,000 people.
Now that's not all the players. Steam estimates about 60,000 game owners, so again multiplied by 5 that's about 300,000 people own the game.

So take say 10% of that are your market for a "radically realistic rail sim."
That's maybe 30,000 people.
You can look at it either way.
Yes that's a lot of people.... but is it a lot of people to market a whole new game to globally?
TSW is already below 1,000 on the game sales charts. Not because it's bad, but because it's a narrow market.
Narrow that further by weeding out "casuals" and you're talking a very small base.... who are already mostly playing other "more realistic" games.
So, to get sales from those you'd have to be "better" than those.
That's a big gamble.
So, that limits you to doing non-competitive gamers segments to be safe.
Meaning "console players who want a more realistic experience."
Players who are already "casual" by nature and whose controls don't lend themselves to "realism."
Is anyone going to make a game almost entirely for console that appeals to a fraction of TSW's population?
I mean... games that small do exist.
Indy tiles.
Arguably the "realistic train sims" we do have are all "passion projects" to be fair.
So sure, if someone wants to do that very specific work for very little reward then go for it.
I can see a third party developer team of maybe 3-5 people doing that.
However, should DTG sink money into it?
I don't think it makes sense.
It would if anything just cannibalize their own customer base.
The payoff isn't there either.
A game that small would remain small since developers tend to go to the largest audience/profit and I can see it topping out at 10,000 sales. With people unwilling to spend more than $30-50 on a game (evidenced by statements in this forum) then your max revenue is about $500,000. That pays for a year of game development and the first release year.
Again, while that sounds like a lot of money, to develop a new high-fidelity game it's not.
Especially without prospects of much DLC. Again, if it's 1/10th the size of TSW you can expect 1/10th the amount of content for it.
One release a year annually after it's built (in a few years) would be pushing it, but possible.
Maybe one small route and a couple locos plus the usual bug fixes/patches/improvements/etc.
However, then you run into the people saying "I won't pay for yearly updates because I already bought the game!"
So, again how do you generate reliable revenue?
Yearly add ons? (I dunno what you call them... "season passes" or something?)
If only half the players opt for those then you're now talking $250,000 a year in revenue.
That keeps it at about that same 3-5 people.

Now CAN you run a small studio on $250,000 year to make this game?
Sure you can.
Should DTG do it?
Not really their wheelhouse.
As I said, it's a risky venture with little payoff and it only cuts into their player base.

Maybe you can get the team that made the 101 "expert" edition to do it.
Still, it would require people who can work with the game engine itself (and in lots of detail) to make something significantly more "advanced" than TSW, so model designers, artists and such wouldn't likely have the talent. It would require people working in Ureal Engine with the necessary knowledge of UI interfaces, physics, programming, etc....

Tough to pack into a small team that you can afford with the limited potential market revenue stream.

How does this relate to the original topic?
Well, same thing goes for "longer routes."
You cut into the existing releases if you make bigger/longer routes.
If you can release four 50-mile routes for one that's 200 miles.... which do you choose?
No, it's not always a 1:1 per mile, but you have to admit it takes more work to have more product.
That has to take more work... so either more people working on it or more time to develop it.
Either way it's more cost for less revenue since that's fewer sales (and people are already saying they won't pay that much more for longer routes)

Again, it's a losing proposition for DTG.

However, a third party can do whatever they want.....

 

Your first point is my point though, DTG will keep selling what people keep buying, which is modern AC routes. I couldn’t care less about convincing what people should or should not buy.

To suggest DTG offer variety outside of that though is laughable.

People also don’t need to worry about driving 50 year old stock all the time either, since it’s only really JT producing that & they’re on a 12 month release schedule by the looks of things.

 

agree 100% with this, i was saying exactly this point before WCL even got released. When they announced at the time they were going to make the route longer than planned, the most logical conclusion we all reached was they were going to add the Falmouth Branch.

instead we got St Austell, which frankly made zero logical sense, and as you say it would have made more sense just to end it at Truro.

the whole WCL was such a wasted opportunity in my view

 

I mean TSW5 has already seen San Bernardino and Boston-Worcester, neither of which are modern AC, but ok sure.

 

But they're both modern routes....and not in the UK.
Which was the original intent.

 

In 2024 DTG released 11 pieces of content.

1 was DC
2 were diesel
8 were AC

 

DTG's next UK route is, if I'm not mistaken, Cardiff City Line- a Diesel focused route which will almost certainly feature BR era DMUs. DTG offer more variety than you seem to think. And even if they did just do exclusively modern AC routes- does it matter??

We're at the point now where there are enough third party developers to cater to everyone's needs. JT are on BR era stuff, and who's to say a developer like ATS or Rivet or the new Incredible Games can't also do the same?

 

Having longer routes does not mean quicker work. Even with more people, it might not be beneficial because if you have too many people, there could be conflicts of interest in what they want to do.

Longer routes take much longer. If you add to that many stations, many track, lots of unique points of interest, it becomes even longer and i don't think dtg would want to release only 1 dlc every 2 years. But the route itself isn't the only thing. There's the signaling and timetable which can also be complicated.

Shorter routes can also take just as long if there a lot of stations and unique details like goblin line.

Their job doesn't get any easier

 

I agree with the above posts as it's not really a train simulator it's a casual game, with an audience of mostly children, who don't care about route length or the activities that train enthusiasts would be interested in! They just wanna mess around driving trains, the type of trains they see in the world today.

If these short, one handle emu runs sell, why would dtg bother with anything else?

They have made some long routes for tsc but I guess tsc has a different audience to tsw!
How many posts do you see on the tsc forum complaining about route length and quality?

Now dtg have opened the doors to third parties, I would rather buy their higher quality content and leave dtg to get on with it.

Over the last few years with tsc, the only time I buy dtg content, is if its a requirement for third party content.

 

That could be said of so many things in TSW sadly.
WCL is not a lonely exception.

I do wonder whether Rivet might do an update and extension for Falmouth, like they are adding Leven to the Fife Circle.
A re-release (fixing some of the really glaring problems with the landscape for one) could generate more sales and be less work than a whole new route. Maybe offer it as a discounted "add on" for the original.
To be fair, 20% more work to add that bit (plus the revamp to bring it up to at least Fife Circle standard) would be worth the 20% more for an add on. 20% of the $29.99 is only about $6.00, which I'd gladly pay for the 8-9 miles to Falmouth and a revamp of the route landscape/lighting/etc.

If I were them, I'd keep the original price for the route too as a bit of a "sale" for new players who didn't own it already (new players and those who heard bad stuff and didn't buy it originally) Could potentially help their rep and make some sales.
Be a chance to revamp the timetable at the same time and maybe add in layers for added value...although that could bump cost up a bit more depending on how comprehensive that was.

Just a suggestion when talking about "wasted opportunity."

 

Metrolink Antelope Valley Line is sitting at 76 miles. That’s gotta be one of the longest DTG produced routes.

 

"Long" or "short" is all subjective.
Just like "fun" or "interesting."
It's up to the individual what they like and what they mean by the terms.
For example people complain about Cajon Pass when it's very long in length and time to do it.
They call it "too slow" and "too long".... *shrugs*
For every person asking for "longer" routes, someone is asking for "more, shorter routes."
Can't please everyone.
I think DTG is doing their best to be in the middle.
Having said that, yes Third-Party is the way to go.
TSC is offering more content TSW isn't because it's mostly third-parties who do what they want out of passion.
That's what you should really be asking for, not demanding that "DTG" do it themselves.
I'm good with them being the maintainers of the core system and third parties specializing in specific parts of the player base.
Just Trains is a great example of it.

 

Or "profitable". The simplest way to understand it is, if it takes three months to do a 100-mile route, why not do two 50-mile routes within three months? The price of a 50-mile route is 24.99, and the price of a 100-mile route is also 24.99. This is simply a question for elementary school students. Why did DTG choose to develop long-distance routes? The company's starting point is various considerations, and ultimately it depends on the sales of DLC.

 

Correct, which is why people have mentioned it’s refreshing since it’s a break from the usual. It’ll be DTG’s first sprinter & first Welsh route in 5+ years of development.

It doesn’t, I was simply answering OPs question. The point I’m making is if you have a product that sells well, would you rock the boat?

Sure, I took a dig at quality & variety, but let’s not pretend that QA isn’t an issue & DTG haven’t been biased to a particular era & traction lately.

Agreed, personally I think that devs are better off sticking with the things they want to do most, & get the most practice on. For JT that’s apparent it’s BR, for DTG it’s Modern AC & for Rivet it’s been Scotrail.

Not sure why people get so touchy when someone comments on a particular era/traction on this forum.

 

i was the one who asked that question believe it or not (or at least i am one of them anyway).
and yea they NEED to do more longer routes.
Still unforgivable how they make the route short and linear and cutting routes where it shouldnt be.
ECML route missing out York, WCML missing out rugby/birmingham, years old GWE missing out oxford (at least TSC give us that), (This route itself is already good but preferred if other branches are included also) Brighton Mainline.
There is a reason why cathcart circle, SEHS, possibly Brighton Mainline and ECW are pretty good selling, at least ECW ends at Eastborune which a lot of the trains even until today end services at. Preferred for it to go to Ore or ashford.

and jesus where do i even begin with WCR by Rivet. Its a brilliant route but ruined by Rivet (along side WCML).

the route should've made it to plymouth and laira depot in the first place. Despite the set backs they have from what I read here. It still doesnt avoid them from criticism. And not to mention their unusable Class 150. its a joke.

 

Yup.
That's why third parties are better for that sort of thing.
However, I do realize that since they aren't as "approachable" as a target, it's much easier to blame DTG for something that is or isn't in a game rather than rant at the third party developers. DTG just makes a convenient target.

I do wonder if those other developers do browse the forums and read what is said.
It's reasonable to guess that they're train sim fans themselves, and they want to market to the TSW crowd so it makes sense they'd see what's said and perhaps act on it.

Or not... maybe they just sit around a table and say things like "I took a trip to Carlisle and it was brilliant! We should do that route!" and they all nod and say "Sounds good to me."

It does seem like a more direct exchange between third party groups and the playerbase could be productive, but I can see why they'd be hesitant given how the forum gets sometimes. It is the internet after all ;-)

 

That's a good question....why was Rivet doing WCML?
Seems out of their wheelhouse. Now the TOP of the WCML would have made sense, coming out of Glasgow. Maybe Glasgow to Carlisle?
(Maybe JT already has "dibs" on that?)
Or Edinburgh down the ECML?
I'd still love to see the northern part of Scotland too, but as that's low population I don't see it ever happening.
Gotta stick to what people demand and that's high population centers.
so London it is... =-)

 

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. DTG have settled into the " commuter groove. " Casual gamers and completionists rule.

But it wasn't always that way.

Starting out with routes like SPG, GWE, NTP and TVL many of us were looking forward to a true simulator with continuous progress to more detail oriented routes and " pro " locos.

In fact up to and including Rush Hour we could still convince ourselves that we were playing a serious simulator.

But then DTG all but abandoned steam, freight and " heavy haul " US railroading ( they might be in the process of abandoning the US market completely, judging by recent roadmaps ).

When I play TSW ( and I play less and less often ), I mostly play those early routes plus Blackpool and maybe eventually WCMLN.

I'm not expecting any changes for the better.

 

As the BR 101 proves, there is nothing stopping a third party from doing an "expert" route with "expert" locos and rolling stock.
Nothing except ensuring there is a market first.
Perhaps someone could suggest a particular one for them to focus on?

As far as "abandoning the US market"...we just had MBTA release, San Bernadino release, and there were two released before that. (Cajon Pass and Antelope) ... so that's 2 in a year basically..... is "abandon the US" what you really meant to say? Or did you just mean the kind of routes you personally like in the US?

The remark about freight is valid for now.
The whole US... no.
If you're a modern commuter casual it's boom time in the US right now.

 

Personally as I’ve said elsewhere, once DTG release a route that should not be the end of it. I’ve already curtailed my spending habits and will not blindly spend another £30 on a route that offers nothing over the 50 or so I’ve already got. So MBTA left on the shelf, WCML over Shap and Mittenwaldbahn Day One purchases. What I want to see is DTG go back in and start extending and updating some of the existing routes. NTP and TVL the obvious choices as would ECW through to Ore or even Ashford. WCMLS should be Stage One of an eventual complete route from Euston to Birmingham. PFR should be getting its extension to Derby and Manchester. Likewise last years ECML, should be a three or four part plan to extend down to Kings Cross and up to Leeds/York eventually even Newcastle.

They need to completely leave behind the mindset of fire and forget 40 or if lucky 50 mile routes that get chucked off the agenda almost immediately after release.

 

I’m honestly a bit confused. SPG, GWE, NTP, and TVL we’re great for it’s time but lack a lot of the realism that many of the newer routes have added. I don’t see how any of them are hardcore…

• SPG: has its pros but besides the. GP and Dash 2, the locomotives are not good. Absolute arcade sounds and physics on the AC4400. Same loco was used on Cane Creek and is universally hated. Sherman Hill gave us long trains and Cajon Pass gave us long trains + much improved braking systems. NA Freight is dead not because of casuals, but because of access issues.
  
• GWE: has the exact problem everyone in this thread is complaining about. Ends at Reading, much too soon.
  
• NTP: Signaling is absolutely borked to the point where it’s immersion killing, not realistic at all and every UK route since then. It’s saved because of good rolling stock. If this route was sold in the TSW5 era, it’d sell like hotcakes if done right.
• TVL: Another one, ends wayyyy too soon! Needs an extension. When DTG eliminated the 3 car sets, because it wasn’t realistic on the route, all “hardcore players” flew off the handle.
• The TSW 1 days also gave us that NEC route that was so bad that it didn’t even make it to TSW2. Uh, Rapid Transit anyone? LIRR1? Meanwhile we finally we have working safety systems on all the newer NEC routes (NYT not withstanding)

The absolute worst of the worst routes are mostly from TSW1, yet everyone thinks things were so much better back then. Most TSW1 routes are good for layers, and that’s it.

And then how many of these “hardcore” players didn’t want suspension physics (trains bounce a lot outside the bogies) and were hemming and hawing real hard about the price of the expert 101. Don’t forget how many “hardcore players” got absolutely filtered by the LIRR 2 safety systems because they couldn’t turn them off.

Seems to me these “hardcore players” are real selective about what realisms they want, and anyone who has another POV is a casual. Game has problems but making 3 hour long services isn’t going to make things better.

 

Just in regards to TSW1 routes, agreed that on the technical side of things they can look poorly aged compared to later releases, but they don’t get as much criticism (at least back then) as these were routes that came out in the first year of TSW being a thing. There was a general appreciation of learning curves etc. You also need to consider that DTG were very loose lipped at this time, promising this & that was being done. Just on the subject of GWE, there were devs on the forum talking about all the things they had planned for it, including a 387.

We simply didn’t have a good reason to accuse DTG of anything, as at the time there were no previous learnings to be had in Unreal, they were promising improvements, fixes & content enhancements/additions. Of course now that’s different as DTG do have past learnings, we know they don’t keep promises. DTG had a lot of good will from players going into TSW & quickly squandered a lot of it.

The one constant they do have is NTP, TVL, RSN etc all have a pretty decent atmosphere, which been today holds up. SPG seems to be widely regarded as still being the best freight route (notably it has had some changes since TSW1).

There’s been a few conversations over the last year or so, asking for remasters of older routes such as NTP. I doubt anyone would agree they’re feature rich & upto modern dev standards, but they still have a great core experience to work from.

 

Valid points.
There is more quality to SPG than in many new releases. It still stands up better than most in the route itself. Even the locos I'd say are better than you admit.

However, yes "authentic" or "realistic" is again a personal preference just like "longer" or "more fun." Bottom line is it's not a "simulator" it's a "sim"... which is intentionally branding. A "sim" is a simulator-lite. It's mean to be more "game" than "simulator."
That was in from the beginning when TSW was created for primarily consoles.
As I've said before, there are other PC games that are more "simulator."
Consoles don't lend themselves to as much "realism."
People are insisting on going against the current.

Instead of insisting the whole game is revamped for a personal desire or preferences, why not just focus on specific projects to address those very specific desires? There's much more chance a single developer could echo that and respond.
(evidenced by the BR 101 "expert level" and the Just Trains focus on BR era)

 

Yeah I see they have shifted away from freight, as you say some of the old routes have a fair amount of freight activities.
Then here in uk with mostly newer routes, there's not much freight runs to replicate!

Then I spend most of my time on tsw these days in free roam. I can use my imagination and do some freight runs or rail tours.
Then I spend a lot of time on tsc. There's a lot more variety and freight activities are more involved.
You can load up aggregates at point a and unload at point b. Same with other cargo too. Whereas tsw only offers this on a few select routes and scenarios.

We got 3rd party content to look forward to I guess.

 

A couple of my favourite routes (in era) are pre-TOD4 routes. NTP with an timetable and lighting upgrade wold probably surpass the new JT route as my favourite BR period route. ECW was well made and I love the 313 but it should have gone to Hastings or Ore. I liked TVL but it was much too short.

However of the others, BML is too dark, some of the cuttings are so dark I struggle to see where tunnel mouths are. GWE, thankfully getting an upgrade had a poor timetable and felt short compared to the TSC version but it was their first TSW passenger route. RSN seemed like half a route, MSB, HRR and RRO also feel incomplete. RT did seem to be a good route at the time but doesn't now. We know what happened with the NEC route and LIRR v1 was disappointing. SPG and Clinchfield are good but I feel could do with a TOD4 upgrade.

They seemed good at the time as they were all we had but I struggle to play them now due to the awful lighting. Mid-day in Summer often feels like 7am on an April morning. I only really fire up NTP because of its period and ECW because of the 313.

I do think the routes we have now are better made and look so much better but I would love to see many of the old ones get makeovers, maybe even with extensions if possible. As a BR enthusiast it seemed a good time which faded away, JT have bought that back with their routes. Personally I hope that if WCML is a sales success then maybe DTG will throw us BR fans an occasional bone.

 

You both make fair points, these old routes had SOUL, and I appreciate them for just that. SPG had radio chatter going on, which was awesome. Cohesive timetable. Etc.

I just don’t think the game is going in a more casual direction. We’re getting technically better stuff. Yes, ok, there are all these soulless UK EMU routes, but unfortunately, that’s mostly what the UK has in real life now. I’m glad we have a third party dev like JT who is committed to taking us back in time and doing it really well. I don’t think DTG have the time or resources to pump out good old BR content.

The recent Boston route surprised with how decent it is and they do ok with German stuff, where they seem to generate pretty good locomotive-hauled content (thanks in part to TSG’s influence)

UK I just think is going to be a tough nut to crack because there’s a very expectant and large UK player base who want soulful content, but in real life the UK has gone heavily EMU unfortunately

 

One thing to keep in mind is that distances are not equal.

Compare Kassel-Würzburg to something like Köln-Mainz or Berlin Ostbahnhof to Magdeburg, both of the latter examples are shorter than KWG but contain tremendously more stations and unique assets that would have to be made.

Or New York - Philadelphia vs Shelby - Havre for an even more extreme example.

Given these factors, I think Kinzigtalbahn is pretty impressive. 110 km starting at freakin Frankfurt Hbf
With all of that said, I'm certainly someone that would be overjoyed if more long routes like WCML: Preston - Carlisle were released to TSW (my main interests are long distance/intercity passenger and freight), but I see the challenges

 

Well I get "touchy" because I think a lot of people on this forum have a very condescending attitude towards modern content. I see the term "one handled EMUs" thrown about every day, and I always roll my eyes.

I object strongly to this assumption everyone seems to have that modern routes are only for casual players, and that true train enthusiasts only care about historic content. I was a railway enthusiast before I ever touched a controller, and my favourite routes have always been the modern ones. "Soulless" they are not.

 

To be fair San Bernardino and MBTA both offer freight services. I guess unless DTG makes a freight only route some players won’t be satisfied. I get it ,we all want and like different things. US is very tough area. You either do freight or passenger route, not many options there. Anyways just my opinion.

 

I disagree. I personally think you've misinterpreted what that post means. I've personally interpreted as "not all of our in house routes will be ultra long, there will be a variety of routes of varying lengths, but there will be an odd route or two that will have a good few miles to it. Just don't expect every single routes to be long". Atleast that's how I've understood it...


To be honest I don't disagree with DTGs statement. I'm open to all lengths of route, and it all depends what a route has to offer me. For example GOBLIN is a fantastic end to end little route and offers and end to end commuter service? Do I write it off because it's short? No. It's a unique little commuter route with a good variety of services and AI amongst it.

Do I like long routes? Ofcourse I do, I bloody love them. I like feeling the operations of a good length route and the feeling of stretching my legs on an InterCity route and it's complexity.

But what a short route has to offer me versus what a long route has to offer me are two different things. To write something off because of its length is silly... It's getting the balance of what a route has to offer a player.

It's healthy to get a balance of the two. To say all routes have to be lengthy only limits gameplay opportunities. The London Overground routes for example, are short in the grand scheme of things but offer brilliant gameplay and are fulfilling. InterCity routes like the WCML and ECML are appealing for operating high speed or regional services and also offering freight operations over a greater distance. Each are appealing in their own way. Each teach you the different type of operations of a commuter railway or an InterCity mainline route.

I'd suggest just being open minded to both, I don't believe DTG is saying that they will only create short routes, I believe they are just saying 'don't expect every single route to be huge'... Each one has their own appeal and each one can offer something and doesn't need to be huge. Whilst others can offer something by being long and having vast mileage. It's about having variety, and offering something unique to that route.

 

There are quite a few people that are very condescending/elitist about "Modern" traction. You're certainly not wrong about that.

 

It's the same in any hobby.
People have different interests.
A "classic car" guy just doesn't appreciate the modern EVs or near-identical sedan models out there.
Does that make them "wrong" or "elitist" to have their own preferences?
Much like modern cars, I can't tell them much apart anymore since they have almost the same outside "shell" and even the components are similar. Same with EMUs. They all just look near identical to me.

To be fair, that could be said of much of the BE era diesel stock too in the UK, but you can see my point. You do get less actual variety in sticking to just modern EMU stock. (as opposed to the JT route where you have diesel shunter, diesel passenger, diesel freight, electric freight, electric passenger, diesel "railbus" (Pacer), etc.

There is a lot more to choose from.
A route like ECW for example you have one EMU and a Class 66 (which while accurate isn't the same variety)
For Goblin you get a single EMU.
London Commuter you get two EMUs.
WCML same thing except you get "cool leaning EMU!"

Now if that's your thing there's no need to get defensive. It's your thing. Be proud of it.

It's just not my thing... and not for many of the forum members.

However, to be fair you're not alone. If DTG keeps making that content then it must mean it sells well so the majority ARE fans of modern EMUs. You're in the majority, bud.

For me I'll stick to the content I prefer, which right now is the Just Trains route =-)
I'll likely take a pass on the Manchester Aiport, Cardiff, etc.
Just not my thing.
Yet I bet they'll sell well because the majority of players (and the overwhelming majority of console users) really like those routes.

So be it. I'm not going to begrudge them their fun.
It does remain factually correct however that those ARE what DTG is focusing on with UK and German content.
It's just a true statement.

Even the US stuff while a couple of the locos are diesel are still mostly commuter based, modern stuff.

 

Well it’s about 4 people that throw that term around & frankly I don’t think it’s worth getting upset over. You get the last laugh on people like that because of where the content bias in TSW is.

I mentioned (factually) that there is a bias from DTG towards Modern content & almost immediately people have gotten their backs up against it. When I referred to it as being buggy content, it is, as is basically all of the content DTG push out, regardless of era & traction. QA is a massive problem.

On the subject of ‘everyone’, there is just as much childish behaviour going on from modern elitists, when people discuss older content.

 

one handle trains are best suited to the intended mass consumer of DTG's TSW franchise: console players using thumbstick controllers

 

You just made the assumption that I prefer modern stock.

I actually like all eras equally, diesels, steam, anything really. I just don't talk down about other peoples interests.

I don't think the issue is with people preferring different things, it's how they go about expressing it. You can like what you like, while still acknowledging that other peoples likes are valid.

Calling modern trains "Plastic" "One handled toys" isn't a great way of going about it, and is definitely elitist and condescending, and way to many people do it in this forum.

 

In the pinned thread in the suggestions forum, it is said that gameplay is the most important factor and what many people will look for.

Better gameplay doesn't always come from longer routes. Take Kassel - Wurzburg as an example: it's the longest TSW route at over 100 miles, but the gameplay - what most people generally look for - is limited.

Also, DTG produce several routes a year. Longer routes take more time to make, and time isn't something DTG has. Third parties such as JT, however, who produce one route a year can afford the time to build a longer route.

The only reason (solely my opinion, not based on fact) that KWG saw the light of day was because there was only three stations and the route was mostly in tunnels, which took less time to make.

Longer doesn't equal better. GOBLIN proves that.

 

Nowt wrong with rolling stock from the past... I like it. Nowt wrong with modern rolling stock... I like it. Aslong as its not ATO driven... All has its own charm and own place and I enjoy both for different reasons. Do I feel the need to be divisive with other enthusiasts about it? Nope... Go with whatever makes one you happy!

 

You are the one who was "touchy" about it. Yet you aren't "touchy" about people criticizing older stock.
*shrugs*
It's your words mate.
I don't think it's "elitist" any more than rooting for your own football team is "elitist."
You don't demand that everyone love every team equally do you?
It's voicing an opinion.
And in reference to what was actually said, they said in particular that it was what DTG makes lately to make money.
That is a correct statement.
I think "touchy" is the correct phrase you tried to use ironically but accidentally used correctly.
"Feely" would be accurate too.
People are free to voice their opinions and it shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings because they're not personal... it's an opinion on a type of train. You can't get more impersonal than that.
"I don't like modern EMUs" says zero about any individual or group of individuals.
It's a personal opinion statement on an inanimate object.

If you get offended by that....

 

I play on PC with a controller- what does that have to do with anything?

My goodness people acting like older trains are the space shuttle or something. 99% of the time you're dealing with two handles instead of one- oooooh so complex!

The only downside to playing with a controller is DTG's stubborn refusal to let us rebind controls lol.

 

Let's see
1-Reverser
2-Throttle
3-Independent Brake
4-Train Brake
5- Dynamic brake (for US trains)

vs
1- Reverser
2- Throttle/brake

Unless you want to get it going and then you have the brake cut ins, air release, etc.

You are free to use a controller if you want for a PC, but that's you handicapping yourself voluntarily =-)
You're free run (hop) a marathon on one leg if you want too!