So one of the ideas in the survey was for expert locos, and I couldn't find a thread on it or much about it in a larger thread. Expert locos will apparently be study-level, more expensive, come with a bigger manual and more functionality. Matt said that some of the American locos are almost there when you can set them up for multiple unit operation, configure things on the brakes etc. I quite like the idea as well because I sometimes feel like I only find out about some of this added functionality by watching DTG streams, although I may be wrong on that. Anyway, aside from anything else, what would you like to see as a first Expert loco, if they were to start doing them. Personally I'd like something UK-based that I could use on a bunch of routes.
I would say, for me probably either the Stadler Eurodual 9000, Siemens Vectron Dual-Mode, the ÖBB Railjet or one of the IC2 EMUs. Two dual-modes as they are basically trains you could use nearly anywhere for any situation.
A 60, 91 or 56 would be great for this. Can be used across multiple regions and eras and would be more interesting to have proper locos as expert locos rather than rather simple units. I do wonder how close to reality they will be able to go with it before TOCs/FOCs start to not want them to go further.
That thought just crossed my mind too, and that would be another good one. I am actually just going to add it to my post above.
Unfortunately for the US, there is really only 2/3 groups that can make good Expert level locos. -Searchlight Simulations (Will never touch TSW so thats a no go) -Reppo (Possible but it depends if he figures out the editor) -Smokebox (The stoppage of Steam on TSW means he'll probably wont make the jump)
I suppose it would be worth a go. Although I’m all for this, I feel like this would end up alienating some players which is probably the main concern, if a train is ultra-realistic it’s gonna not gonna motivate more casual players to give it a go. I would suggest making 2 versions, 1 expert version and another normal version but that’s more work that’ll probably result in other issues.
The closest parallel to 'Expert Loco DLCs' would be the TSC 'Pro' Range - which is comparable to your standard TSW loco (if we're being generous) I don't really see much of a need for it. Most trains have near full functionality and the only ones that would need more are trains which are inherently more complicated. An "expert" range doesn't really seem valuable, at least to me, for TSW.
If expert locos give me more complicated set up times like, doing proper cold starts, fuel consumption simulated then, I’m up for that!
I heard what matt said on the Q and A about the US locos are up there expert wise also plus the length and tonnage wise bet the US freight is the hardest in TSW maybe some dont do US freight cause its too complex for them. But if ppl want a challenge then US freight is it...trying to get train moving on steep grades and getting the braking right going down steep grades i actually watched some youtube videos i had some struggles at first but wathing those videos helped me to do it better
I'd be up for it. Maybe they would finally bring us more engine rooms along with proper cold starts. I'm always interested if there's a chance to get more realism.
Agree with your first paragraph, that's how it had seemed to be as well. I love too much detail though along with a big manual, so if they wanted to make something really complicated (or really realistic) then I'd be interested to see what they did.
I'm unsure about expert locos. It's nice to have more advanced features, but I'm certainly not looking forward to complicated start-up procedures and stuff. I don't really want to have to consult a manual each time I play a loco, although I realize it feels good to have 'mastered' a more advanced locomotive. I guess it all depends on the execution. If the extra options on the expert locos are all optional, no problem to me. If it's required to get the loco operational, such as start-up procedures, then at least it needs some good UI hints to help you guide through the process. (And no, not a tutorial, those are far from ideal in cases you just forgot 1 step of the start-up process).
Given DTG have thrown the towel in on steam traction, I wouldn’t rely on them to do study level anything!
If the expert loco pack means the current tutorial depth of "here's the throttle, here's the brake, this opens the doors, please close them behind you and goodbye" with no manual whatsoever then absolutely no. The current documentation of advanced features is very lacking, tutorials cover practically nothing and the most reliable source is Youtube. In terms of development time, I would rather see more locos and rolling stock rather than a limited selection of expert locos. A lot of the routes still have a poor variety of trains.
The only expert loco I tried was the Class 460 on TSC. Think it was the Gatwick Express, but was a long time ago and my memory is pretty bad. Honestly only bought it because I was sick of looking at the bird LOVE on the Class 442 cab windows (yes, I am not making that up. Go and check for yourself). TL DR: YES! I would love expert locos on TSW. They are a fun challenge.
I’d say yes, but I don’t think it’ll be a thing. DTG barely make any loco add ons, we’ve had a couple with TSW 4, but other than that we don’t get new loco packs. Not sure how they’d manage to do a pro range when they don’t even like doing standard loco packs because they don’t sell well. Surely a Pro Range would be even harder to sell?
If Expert locos did happen it would probably fall to 3rd parties as I can't see DTG investing time into doing locos that are almost 1 to 1 copies of real locos and making 100 page manuals but if TSW did get expert locos I'm all for it
To be fair this was how it was in TSC, more than a few of their Pro range were not very ‘pro’. You still need to go to AP to get anything remotely good.
I play mostly german content and honestly, there is not too much to add. We could get more logic in computer systems (having to insert train data to safety systems, ebula,..), we could get accessible engine room (but until we get some malfunctions, there is no real reason to go there), and that's about it, rest of the functionality is more or less already there. What I could imagine buying (and there is a few of us here for sure) would be some sort of "advanced freight package". Let us play with hoses, valves (hello Derail Valley), manually place end markers, get proper train documents.. If devs revisit all the (german) freight wagons to add such features across the board, I am willing to pay full DLC price to get that unlocked, while beginner players can be spared of that.
So first of all what did you expect on futures that will bring more immersive gameplay? The game is for the most players a good step i guess! But the most things that players want are announcements and such things but thats not an expert one. If you look at Zusi3 with all the traindata that you can add is that an expert thing that will bring more an immersive experience....? Traindata like weight, train number and data like PZB, ETCS and Sifa.. For me its fun but if you have a timetable with a driving time by 25minutes its useless if you asking me and thats at the moment the biggest issue in TSW the routes are to short to get benefit from it.
They would allow you to change ends properly and open the door for more detailed cold starts. Both of those are things I’d want to see if these expert locos were to materialise. Oh, yes. Sign me up.
Or the opposite. I'm reading the steam statements on the stream as meaning that DTG are actively looking to outsource steam development to third parties.
Lol DTG can't even give us decently controlled steam locos, they're not going to give expert locos. Everything will be 1 handle trains for simplified operations...
Please understand that more options in a loco will bring more frustration than fun... Every update will be more complicated and at the moment they are not experts in fixing things in a expected way
I think the Class 460 shows the problem with the idea of "expert" locos - sure there's a long checklist when setting it up, but once you've done that it's just another EMU. I absolutely disagree with this.
The only 'Pro' DLC I ever bought was the Greater Anglia 315... It's about as "pro" as it sounds. (And yet, strangely, I couldn't ever work it out until I played with the TSW 314...)
Like Purno I'm not interested in massively complicated start-up procedures - the bit about TSW I enjoy is the driving. However, if ‘expert’ can include better physics simulation, and inclusion of features actually used when driving the train, that would interest me. So for example, a tap-changer electric (class 81-87) with a good simulation of its unusual control system and other features which the real locos had such as anti-slip brakes, then that would be worthwhile. My suspicion, though, is that what DTG have in mind is a modern EMU with a functional TCMS system so that you can do gimmicky things like re-setting the smoke alarm in the toilet. If that’s the case, then it’s a no from me.
(Might be showing ignorance but this is my thoughts of expert locos) My question on this, is how much difference is their really, compared to how trains turn as it is, take the HST for example, how much difference would a pro make ? I don’t see a whole range of buttons like the concord plane for example, surely they can’t be much more to it what would warrant “expert prices to implement” surely trains turning on is just part of the usual setup and should be implemented normally anyways. my second point is how would they even work with what’s their now, a long setup every service that gets taken over by the player? Only in depot services ? Sounds to me like the current timetable would be destroyed by them, set up times still aren’t always at least 2 minutes with every route aswell.
Another issue with Pro models is the limitations of console users using the joypad as opposed to the greater flexibility of KBM on PC. On my PS5 version (TSW3) even something simple like cancelling the bell on a US loco after sounding the horn doesn’t have a direct input.
This is a valid point consoles may not be able to work with advanced locks. Flight sim has this problem on Xbox.
The other one is something as basic as the Master Key, no input I know of with a simple button press. Which makes it very hard on something like the TVL Class 37 where the switch is hidden behind the power handle and damned awkward to wiggle the waggle stick to hit the sweet spot.
To be fair I think anyone interested in such a range on console would more than likely be using a keyboard already, to use hidden controls. The controller mapping issue already exists.
You know that PC keyboards can be used with Xbox and Playstation, right? I have an Xbox Series S and use KBM all the time, not just for TSW either.
If they want to do Expert, perhaps they should practice on getting Steam to a ‘normal’ level of operation first and while they’re at it, sort out ai steam loco’s absence of sounds
It does sound cool! I would love to get E.g. more locos in the state of the Vectron- you really see that they put love in it! The only problem I see is: They will take locos as Expert versions and locos as standard version. That would result in some very cool locos and some rather basic ones. The problem I see is that if we e.g. get an ICE4 in standard level at some point, we will certainly never see it in expert level. Because of that I would rather pay 5 bucks more on every lcoo and have every loco being an expert one
For me one of the UK DMU’s would be a good starting point for this sort of project. Ideally something that has more than one route to run on, or thinking about it maybe the Class 66 would be better as it’s just about everywhere.
Yeah, I'm well aware of that, but to consider 'expert' locos when sorting out the state of steam remains 'up a rusty siding', appears somewhat ridiculous. Finish what is started first, then move onto new aspects/features of the sim, don't abandon half cocked stuff right, left and centre because it's going to involve a bit of time and effort to fix. We have so many 'features' that are half implemented - steam, PC editor, controller implementation, suspension physics, etc. They're great selling points till the realisation sinks in that they're not quite what was sold to you.
And not every game supports keyboard and mouse on console that has to be implemented by the developer. Same on PS
Once you get into more complicated simulation stuff its not a bad idea to plug a keyboard into even a console. Keyboard works with TSW on console. You don't need a fancy gaming keyboard, just a $20 USB keyboard can add a lot of flexibility. It also doesn't replace the controller even when plugged in, I have a keyboard/mouse plugged into console and still use my controller 90% of the time, but its nice having all the keyboard keys there for some shortcuts. MS Flight Simulator on Xbox is a similar situation. You can grab your controller and fly around a casual plane relatively simply, but if you want to properly operate a complicated airliner with hundreds of knobs and buttons, complicated navigation system etc you basically need to plug in a keyboard and mouse.
Yeah I am not against the "expert" loco and them costing a bit more but at the same time I don't want to see them start releasing dumbed down ones either. As long as they are only improving fidelity and not lowering the bar for anything.
The best ‘pro’ locos on Train Sim Classic are steam, and most of them are produced by third party developers such as Bossman, Steam Sounds Supreme etc etc - they are genuinely superb and drive just like their real life counterparts with all the details and foibles built in. Meanwhile in TSW DTG can’t even get basic steam physics right, let alone give us pro level models….
as for advanced features, I miss the Ebula the most... learning to read an actual Fahrplan like a pro, being able to understand those things intrigues me
With the best will in the world DTG sometimes struggle to put together normal content. I do worry a lot about the amount of issues with 'expert locos" which have a ton more things to go wrong and need fixing. If they did expert locos they'd really need to get the beta testers testing everything thoroughly and they'd have to listen to the feedback before release. Which we already know they aren't the best at especially when money is involved it would seem
Steam Sounds Supreme do not develop loco DLCs - like Armstrong Powerhouse, they supply sounds to and publish DLC made by other developers.
I don´t think there will be anything expert in this game, frankly: 1. The game´s focus is on a laidback, couch gaming experience, controller friendly, short run (~30 minutes) (I have nothing against people that play using the controller, I´m just stating the obvious focus of this game) 2. They don´t have the knowledge nor they will acquire it 3. What they call expert might me different that what people expect, this is to match their development capabilities Steam engines are too expert for them, they couldn´t make them happen correctly. But hey, it´s good for PR and it gives players a sense of professionalism to talk about ¨pro¨ things in the survey.
