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Extensions (or Lack Thereof) Are Going To Start Becoming A Problem.

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Delta_Who, May 6, 2021.

  1. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    So I was viewing a video on Cathcart circle to get an idea of what the upcoming line would look like ().

    And I couldn't help but feel slightly anxious whilst looking at how busy Glasgow Central looked. An array of Scottish main lines and WCML traffic that is not present in the game yet.

    This is one of the major unavoidable downgrades of the TSW-verse. DTG creating singular route experiences that are limited in their overall length.

    Fast forward to the Rush-hour announcement, and we learn that London-Brighton will not be merged with ECW. Although in the same physical location and some aspects of that forward thinking there, it will not be present. No additional work on route merging right now. I'm having a hard-time imaginging Clapham Junction simulated to its full capacity (both due to missing stock and performance reasons)

    So at present, we are stuck with a sim that :
    a) Forcibly gives us some of these stunted experiences
    b) Gives us no option to modify or improve upon them
    c) Effectively makes us install the same assets twice

    My biggest concern down the line... is should DTG decide to work on this feature, we will be at a point within the sim that it would be irreversibly too complex for DTG to consider the necessary work to implement this feature on existing routes. When each route is effectively a self-contained game its own right, how would DTG solve the issue of different locomotive versions, different route-building techniques, different signalling, different dispatcher versions in a clean sweep. And for some existing routes, are they even geographically in the correct position to allow for an easier merge?

    Or are we left stuck with more TS remasters without modding tools?
     
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  2. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if DTG have considered "cut down" train models for AI use only. That might keep the development cost down and would allow routes like Cathcart to have 390's and Voyagers running round, which could also be used on the overground section of the Bakerloo. I see otherwise the problem is that DTG don't want to give away (as perhaps they see it) more than two or maybe three classes of motive power with each route but that does create the huge issue of all these standalone routes with scant representation of the traffic.

    It can be done in the flight sim world, Just Flight created their "Traffic" add on for FS9 and later FSX which included just about every type of commercial airliner flying, simplified but good enough to be convincing. Surely not beyond the wisdom of someone at DTG to produce a similar pack, not least the models could be fleshed out later to make them driveable as necessary.

    We will be getting another example of this later in the year when their annexe company (Rivet) release West Cornwall which will probably have two as yet unconfirmed traction types, when a multitude of motive power should be seen.

    This approach might work on a self contained route with dedicated traction or a branch line, but it starts to look daft when doing main lines and most of the trains you would see are absent.
     
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  3. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The sooner DTG get TOC’s such as Cross Country/Avanti/EMR/TFW/Northern/TPE in the game, the sooner these principle stations will look less deserted.

    Personally I think Cathcart has come too soon, that’s the type of route that should come after a mainline DLC in the same area in order to add the local life.

    Then you have routes such as RRO & HBL which should ideally be used for route extensions, they have a lot of layers but they’re let down by their pitiful length.
     
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  4. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's such a clear-cut case. The resource usage for all those trains would be massive... even for next-generation systems. And even then, we're talking years until we see also those type of TOCs and stock in one place (if ever). There's not even a gurantee that DTG would update existing legacy routes (like they did with preserved) and put in ALL of that stock.

    I just have so many doubts on this current trend of DLCs.
     
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  5. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    If Glasgow Cathcart Circle ONLY comes with the Class 314, then it is going to look EXTREMELY dead.

    Good luck to DTG in trying to make Glasgow Central, with its 15 or so platforms, look busy and populated with only one type of train, with its single livery.

    Below is a typical scene at Glasgow Central:
    upload_2021-5-6_22-5-31.png
     
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  6. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    its not like we’re talking Clapham junction levels of traffic, for Glasgow for example, a XC 220 and an Avanti 390, would make a world of difference around Glasgow Central, along with a stabled Avanti unit at their depot.

    It’s no different to how Brighton is with the idle AI services for the WCW & BML units there, it’s about getting the units in the game, in their standalone DLC, so that those who have them can see increased life on other routes.

    Cathcart is going to be pitiful around Glasgow central with just a couple of 314’s there.
     
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  7. Delta_Who

    Delta_Who Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this. Having Glasgow central would definitely help in future launch other DLCs (in the same way Brighton has). But I'm near willing to bet money that we won't see traffic as populous as it could be.

    In my mind, either the development of extensions should be prioritised, or the consideration of AI/non-boardable trains.
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well dtg are aware people want route mergers/extensions but it's because of technical reasons with unreal as to why they can't happen at the moment.

    I think one issue with tsw content is when a new railroad operator is introduced, we only see it once and never see it again. We haven't had GWR licensed content or routes in 4 years for crying out loud. There are many lines in the MTA Long Island railroad but only two are in the game and one doesn't actually go to the actual last stop.

    A route like Cathcart Circle with Glasgow Central Station which is a major station in Scotland will look dead in my opinion because you don't have mainline trains that would make it feel lively. Not to mention that the route wasn't massively requested and I bet one reason why it was made is to see if players would buy Scottish content which was one of their mindsets when making LGV which was the first non U.S /U.K/German route in the game to see if players would like a French route.

    I hope if route extensions are made in the future, that the main team gets involved so the preserved crew doesn't do it all by themselves.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  9. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I am all for extensions but this is not a new issue. Just look at HMA. Munich is one of the busiest stations in Germany and we rarely have traffic there. I think DTG has painted themselves into a corner with trying to support PS4 and XBox One. I am not sure how much sales is on the other platforms but it could be substantial. That is why the upcoming release is exciting. They support PS5 and Xbox Series X with much better hardware and once they have a critical mass of users in those platforms, they can think about these stuff. We have to wait a couple years atleast till we get there.
     
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  10. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    ^This, but it is going to feel like an eternity.
     
  11. TheRealJuralumin

    TheRealJuralumin New Member

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    This is what Taito did in the latest Densha de Go! game on PS4 and Switch, the game is restricted to the Yamanote line (anti-clockwise only) in Tokyo, along with a handful of bonus routes that run along side it, but they added in lots of non-playable AI traffic throughout the route so you still get the full experience. I don't see why DTG couldn't do something similar with TSW2.
     
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  12. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    Agreed. Hopefully by that time we would have ample routes around that can be linked together.
     
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  13. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    GA Flight Simulators don't need detailed AI models because you don't tend to that close to them, and you never interact with them. Also those packages are purely for AI use, they don't intent for them to be used by the player in a serious capacity. Even decent freeware is a ton better than the AI aircraft in these packages after all. Once you are closer and need to interact with them you, and if you futureproof them for player use on top of that can't just get by with low detailed models. For example IL-2 has non-player aircraft, but only a small number, because they require a lot of effort. Basically the only difference from a AI and player model is the lack of a modeled interiors. Exterior models are just as good as player aircraft, and with IL-2 using the same physics engine for AI and player aircraft they also have a equally detailed flight model.

    I would reckon a AI train would be in a similar book, at stations where you can be walking around right next to them you can't get by with low detailed exterior models. And even back in FSX transparent windows and basic interiors were the norm for aircraft, and it's even becoming standard with many airports for MSFS, and that's for a flight sim. I think TSW would have a hard time with half baked interiors for even AI trains at this point, certainly not if you're future proofing the model to be detailed enough for future use as a player train. You could probably get by without rigging some of the cab animations, and a very basic physics model. But you'd still still need the 3D model team to treat it as a full new locomotive at the very least, which in turn means pulling them away from other potential projects. And considering how rough releases like SEHS and LGV have been when it comes to scenery I think it would be a extremely poor judgement to do so.
     
  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    DTG said in the roadmap stream on Tuesday that AI services from ECW to BRI may be put into place so that the far eastern platforms do have working traffic

    Merging the two lines at BRI wouldn't make too much sense as services don't run from the mainline to ECW at this point, although it would allow depot moves which then go into service (something missing at the moment)

    A minor extension and merge further north, coming onto the ECW at Lewes WOULD make sense as this opens up Hastings and Eastbourne to London services via Lewes, which happen frequently as well as extending the 66s way further than they are now
     
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