1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

False Advertisement?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by nielsmallant100, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    130
    This might sound weird, but hear me out.
    DTG released TSW a few years ago. In many interviews and livestreams it was made clear that there will be an editor for TSW, THIS TITLE. As well as multiplayer and many other promised features. Now we can discuss a long time about that the new games has Train Sim World in the title too, and how they WILL be bringing these features into the new title, but the short conclusion is, we paid for a product, and we will never get a lot of the features that were promised would come to THIS title. That is legally false advertisement, so unless TSW 2 will be free for existing TSW owners, which let's be fair, won't happen, this is under EU law, false advertisement. I would love to be proven wrong, but please come with solid arguments, and no accusations towards me personally or fanboy behaviour.
     
    • Like Like x 13
  2. Dynek

    Dynek New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2020
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    11
    It had also come as a surprise to me, since I was waiting for the promised multiplayer to come to the game, yet we see TSW 2 announced. Given the fact that "Multiplayer is not part of Train Sim World 2, but it’s on our future roadmap", it looks like we also won't see multiplayer until TSW 3. I have mixed feelings about this product because I'm excited for the new scenarios but it may also feel like buying the same game twice. I really hope there will be a substantial upgrade in the gameplay that's worth the sequel, but for that we need to wait and see when it releases.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  3. UnlimitedMagic

    UnlimitedMagic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    860
    Maybe editor was already being worked on with TSW2 when TSW2 was being developed. I think that the things that got promised are to come in this TSW
    They probably saw TSW wasn’t satisfying us so they started working on TSW2 to refresh things and put what they promised there
    And why should it be free for us if the routes are new and fresh and not recycled from TSW2020
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  4. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    275
    Good thing then that Britain isn't part of the EU anymore.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  5. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    I would have to check.... but I think that this is one of those relatively few EU laws which was actually based on long-established UK law. So when the EU Directive was implemented there wasn't a great deal that the UK had to do (other than shuffle a few references for the vires, and re-enact the Act...)..... I might see if I can find the Explanatory Memorandum for the UK's transposition of the relevant Directives....
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    I am prepared to answer this seriously.. But you would need to provide two things first:

    - an explicit law or Regulation that you feel has been breached (this is easy enough to find) - what is your complaint exactly; and,
    - some actual clear evidence of the breach ......so, for example, a specific piece of marketing material directly related to the product, which encouraged you to make the purchase, which contained the information that you relied on for your purchase, which turned out to be false.

    You would have to come up with the evidence to prove your assertion. The onus isn't on anyone else to disprove your assertion, for you to not be correct. It would not be enough to find a video where a developer says something like "One day we would like to include an Editor...." - you would probably need a piece of packaging or advertising material that says "This software includes an Editor..." etc.

    More generally though, I would say right now that you are likely to have an extremely poor chance of success. As far as I can remember, when I have made purchases associated with TSW, there was absolutely nothing to indicate that an editor of any kind was included with the package.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
    • Like Like x 7
  7. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    771
    Likes Received:
    1,573
    I think that if you have bought TSW in 2017 and have been actively using it until now then in law you have accepted that product as fit for use. Going back now and saying you only bought that product on the basis that certain alluded to features would be added at a later date would be a weak basis for any claim, even the smallest of claims which would be a refund. There is always the defence from DTG’s side that they are still in line for development for TSW, which they are stating now, for TSW2, the second instalment of TSW, which as you will see in my next point, they would never have to rely on in any case.

    Did DTG ever state officially that these features would be included in the first payment for TSW, which is based on all future content being paid for DLC (which could include multiplayer or an editor)? Because if they didn’t then you have no claim whatsoever.
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  8. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    I completely agree with your assessment. A good test that could be applied by nielsmallant100 would be to ask himself the following questions:

    - When did I buy TSW, on what exact date?
    - Did the packaging indicate the presence of an Editor?
    - Did I purchase the product without any evidence of there being an Editor?
    - Did I use the product, and if so, how long for?

    and

    - Why have I waited until now to decide that the product wasn't advertised correctly?
     
    • Like Like x 6
  9. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    And I give you VW diesel emissions litigation... That may well be slightly different, but using a product based on facts stated is one thing that doesn't lapse over time

    Unfortunately there's a problem here. For something to be "false advertising" the statement has to be in the form of an advert, and I don't remember the release literature stating "Better graphics, collect railway maps, oh and an editor"
    The question of the editor was raised by those used to TSx which has had an editor since before DTG got involved in the title, and whilst it was always stated as "something we've been working on", even with the infamous video Matt P made two years ago or whenever it was, it's not false advertising. Maybe overambition on the part of the Dev team, and this is me saying this as I had a conversation with MattP where he said he wanted everything sorted in one package before they released even a scenario editor... (note TSW2 takes a different path it seems... maybe they're learning)
     
    • Like Like x 7
  10. MattChaffe10

    MattChaffe10 New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    8
    I believe the step to TSW2 will allow for an editor and all the other features down the road. The article was very promising that this step up will allow for those features.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Dynek

    Dynek New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2020
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    11
    I'm not sure about the editor, but Matt has clearly stated that “there absolutely will be multiplayer in Train Sim World" when the game was initially announced. The original video seems to have been removed, but it can be found in this reaction video. Therefore I have treated multiplayer as a real expectation when it comes to the current Train Sim World, without anyone mentioning that there will be another iteration of the game, before the multiplayer feature has been implemented. It may have been an "overambition" as ARuscoe mentioned, but the point still stands.

    I don't mind purchasing the sequel, given the fact that it may allow for such features to be finally introduced, but it's easy to understand why players may feel tricked. There may even be people that bought TSW solely because Matt, a key representative of Dovetail Games, has mentioned that there absolutely will be multiplayer; that's why I find discussions like these understandable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
    • Like Like x 4
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  12. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2019
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Was multiplayer the reason you bought TSW? Have you spent any time with the game since? The idea of multiplayer coming to TSW certainly didn’t come up when I was deciding on purchasing it and compared to other simulators and games I would say I have got more then my money’s worth out of TSW and it’s exactly what I thought it would be when purchasing it.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  13. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    This is a reasonable argument... partially. One of the reasons why it doesn't go the full distance (in my opinion), is that such a video doesn't have much status as "marketing material", in of itself. Although it might be a compounding factor.... for example, OSD launched with a misleading map in the published manual which was available pre-purchase, and with misleading written marketing material... plus a pre-release video-stream that incorrectly described the extent of the product (and video that was made specifically to promote the product just ahead of release)... where the information about extent exactly matched the other incorrect formal written materials. DTG realised their error eventually, and made the appropriate changes. But they also probably paid for it dearly, because if you look at the PS4 numbers, the take-up for OSD looks extremely poor - and this last point is important - people were dissuaded from purchasing the product.

    Before making a purchase of TSW, you had the opportunity to review the functionality. On PS4 (for example) there would be a clear indication of multi-player feature compatibility... and on the physical box (circa 2018) it clearly says "1 PLAYER". This is a standard feature on PS4 packaging. There is no indication of "2-99 PLAYERS", which would be the case for an MMPORG, for example. On the online store, TSW 2020 currently lists the product as "1 player", as do all of the DLCs. Consequently, ahead of your purchase, you could be in no doubt that the TSW product was made as a "One Player" product. It's really exceptionally clear.

    I would say that (for PS4) that this would be an extremely robust defence against any allegations of false advertisement, with respect to any claims that they falsely indicated that the product had multi-player functionality, when it was made available for purchase.

    I hope that helps. If there was a serious case to answer, then I can assure you that I'd be more than willing to help. But I don't think that there is any case here at all.

    EDITED TO ADD: I have seen the TS 2017 launch video, where the prospect of multi-player in TSW is clearly stated.... and I think that in future, DTG will need to be more careful about announcing features that they have not yet designed, built and tested.... Nevertheless, the context for that video was the launch of TS 2017, and I do not think it is sufficient to rely on that video, and suggest that this was the only information you had available when you later purchased TSW. I fully understand the disappointment... but there still isn't any real case to answer re TSW. When you are invited to purchase TSW 2, you can make your judgement on whether or not to purchase, based on the material put in front of you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
  14. malikrthr

    malikrthr Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2019
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    222
    It was interesting viewing the live stream of upcoming features for TSW2, as I am sure, at this point in time, there are many mixed reviews. I will say though, it is disappointing to hear that there is no editor at the moment. This was promised to us since the original TSW back in 2018. It appears that there was no news from that point moving forward and now come to find out that there are no plans at this point in time for the editor. Is there a forecast for when the editor will be released? The editor is one of the main features that we are waiting for. I do know that there is the scenario and livery editor coming to TSW2, but still, where is the actual editor where we can build and construct our own routes and why was nothing said about it up until now, if it was supposed to be in the original TSW. I do like that we are getting answers and am looking forward to more of the livestreams as TSW2 gets closer to release, to get a better understanding of what will be in TSW2. Either way, I am glad to see the progress being made throughout the Train Sim World series. I am confident that at some point down the line, we will get the editor. I am optimistic none the less and am looking forward to viewing the next set of Q&A's to learn more about TSW2 and to see the progress that will be made from the roadmap.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    When "The original TSW" was launched it was PC only, not sure where in the timeline the editor video was, and when they shifted to "TSW must be the same on all platforms" but from what they said on the stream last night, EVERYTHING about TSW must be equal on all platforms, and that means that you can't share liveries you create because there's no way of doing that from an xbox or PS4 without using some other method.
    So if you want progress from now on it HAS TO BE available on a console, within the adapted version of UE they're using and within their list to do.
    That means no full publicly released editor, probably ever
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    It is perfectly possible to share liveries on PS4 - this is done in GT Sport right now.

    It is perfectly possible to share tracks and challenges (scenarios) on PS4 - this is done in Track Mania.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Must be xbox limitations then
     
  18. FileTrekker

    FileTrekker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2017
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    86
    There are no Xbox limitations either. Games like Fallout 4 share mods on both platforms.

    They could use a platform like mod.io to enable content sharing cross-platform. Don't mistake laziness or lack of willing for a technical limitation. That isn't real.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    using a third party platform may be a hard limit for them (or even a licensing issue)

    I wouldn't use that site based on their terms of service. Certainly any site that states that they take no onus for exposing vulnerable people to "Content that might be offensive, harmful, inaccurate or otherwise inappropriate, or in some cases, postings that have been mislabeled or are otherwise deceptive"...

    Maybe a better example?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. FileTrekker

    FileTrekker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2017
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    86
    Sorry? What do you mean?

    Every modding platform or online experience has that disclaimer. It's user generated content, how can they not have that disclaimer?

    I work for the parent company of mod.io, by the way. Many major games like Snowrunner use our platform and that also uses the same engine TSW uses.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  21. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    All websites, especially those that do funding runs, should have means of controlling submitted content to protect users who should not be exposed to it. Your argument is similar to saying facebook should allow illegal videos or hatecrimes on their platform. They're not, and neither should mod.io be allowed to

    If you store or broadcast any material you should vet and ensure it's suitability. You can imagine how fast DTG would be slammed to the ground by UK regulators if it allowed content unfit for minors on it's games, even by a third party

    Then hopefully you can get their policies changed to something more adequate and suitable for the online world we actually live in. A TOC statement you don't even have to read to download harmful material is no protection for a minor...
    Given that statement is two years old would concern me as someone who works for that company or any parent.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Gabriel12499

    Gabriel12499 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2020
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    11
    I’m glad to see the community wisen up to DTG. DTG will finally have to face the music once and for all. If they go bankrupt it’s there fault. I was the one who raised red flags two or three years ago and was immediately blown off and banned from the forums and the discord.
    I’ll probably get banned for posting this but I don’t care. What needs to happen is DTG needs new management and a more “informed” community coordinator who makes all the decisions on what can and cannot be said instead of saying “it will be there in the future”.

    My suspicion is that the creation of tsw2 was to get out of all the promises of TSW so they don't have to follow through with them. When asked about such promises they probably would say “that was a promise for or canceled title TSW” there’s no need for this crap. They did similar things back on console when they went from founders edition to the actual game. Things changed yet it managed to be in the same app. Matt was showing off an editor so there is proof that it does exist obviously, but there arrogance has prevented them from releasing it.

    There’s probably a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't know about and probably don't want. Now this is complete speculation so i might be wrong so keep it calm. We need support of mods on pc and console via support of editor. But DTG would need to to do something good for once but they probably figure it would cut into there profits if they did that due to people making routes that they cant charge an arm and a leg for. Second we need support for multiplayer and everything else that was promised even though there are some things that i don't personally want someone out there would. Next thing that DTG needs to do is lower dlc prices because it would lead to more sales. They also need to continue to provide better support for your product after you buy it but I feel as if they take your money and run and leave you hanging there. We all need to rise against these poor business practices and boycott if you will there products so when there financially hurting they might decide to listen to us so pass this around and let everyone see it. I will be sticking arround the community for a while now unlike before and will support anyone and everyone against DTG. Please take care and i wish everyone well through this pandemic.

    The new community mannager has done a better job than the previous so i really hope he gets paid good and respected because he has been the best community manager. My beliefs are subject to change of him though as time progresses. My opinion though is that he actually gives a crap about his job and company. Take care! #fixtsw #giveusaneditor
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  23. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    1,010
    Welcome back Gabriel12499 I'm the community coordinator around here who makes all the decisions on what can and cannot be said instead of saying "it will be there in the future." Perhaps you're familiar with my work?

    There is no issue with you being skeptical, accusatory toward DTG or generally dismissive of the game. No problem there at all. However in the same way, there is no issue problem with those who feel differently to express their opinions. Use of the word "fanboy" is not welcome as a means to attack other users.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Watch the stream, you will be told all you need to know about what's going on and what they're aiming for - A consistent experience on all platforms using technology they can control and work with.

    Anything "promised before" is not happening right now (note right now, not ever) but plenty of people seem to need absolute black and white, and that's not possible for where DTG are in their TSW roadmap (which changed, they just didn't tell us that outright until last week)
    So hopefully they'll be more forthright in future and tell us what they want to achieve in the next few months or what they're ruling out, but they're under absolutely no onus to do so, any more than we're under any onus to buy their products.

    They did say they would put out a roadmap, but I will wait for it to be published to be certain they're doing what they say they will
     
    • Like Like x 3
  25. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Community Manager Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    1,010
    You need two things to happen:
    1 - items are put onto the roadmap with a broad idea of when they will be released and/or finished
    2 - those items to then be released

    If 1 doesn't happen it gives insufficient visibility over what's going on. If 2 doesn't happen, even after painting a target on ourselves by committing to it, the roadmap carries little value. After 20 things have arrived more or less when expected having been highlighted by the roadmap, then we can afford to miss a small one without the whole thing being regarded as junk.

    That's how it should be evaluated, in my opinion.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  26. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Something along those lines yeah, and you know you're essentially going to be auditted against those proclamations by parts of the community, so I would suggest a change to:

    Items actively being worked on with targetted workstreams and release dates
    Items being passively being worked on, no workstream or release date

    And then obviously do the first and progress the second.

    I still think a good way of getting the community involved in final stage development is a "throw it to the wolves" when you say a product is nearing release. People like to point out what's off or not right, and then DTG get to fix it and people feel they're being listened to, even while critiquing something they never asked for in the first place
     
    • Like Like x 3
  27. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Audited isn't the half of it....... I don't think that I have ever seen any game or software undergo such detailed scrutiny as TSW - and there is a serious amount of scrutiny applied to some games.....

    BTW - I am agreeing with you. I agree with you. I concur with your recently stated views (above). We are, as far as I am concerned... in accordance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  28. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    537
    But just because stuff is put on this "magical" roadmap doesn't mean it will happen. It can contain all the dreams and fantasies they want but it's no guarantee anything on it will appear. There's no legal requirement for them to stick to it. And when something doesn't appear in game that was on the roadmap, they'll just come up with "we tried but it was too work intensive" or "it's not technically possible with this current UE version".

    All the roadmap is are their dreams and aspirations, but this time it will be on a document or website, which will get removed or miraculously disappear (like the editor video) when people start asking where things are.

    It's on my "roadmap" to win the lottery one day. But, until I start buying lottery tickets, how well do you think that's going to end?

    (Except for the Nigerian lottery where I have loads of emails telling me that I have won without ever purchasing a ticket! )
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Publishing a road-map is almost the very definition of an Aunt Sally..... It's risky. It's bold. It's confident. It's.... um.... brave..... ;-O

    It will inevitably be seen as either too ambitious (in which case people will use it to bash when there is not enough delivery), or it will be not ambitious enough (in which case people will use it to bash as it isn't really promising anything much).

    There will be very few people that will say: "That road-map - that's just right...!". Ironically - nobody can really be in a position (including DTG themselves) to absolutely perfectly predict the future. So my view is to simply:

    - accept the roadmap for what it is (or will be);
    - not take the road-map too literally;
    - be aware that it is also a form of marketing (we are not going to see detailed workplans and resource matching); and,
    - appreciate the new approach to try and improve communication.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  30. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2019
    Messages:
    771
    Likes Received:
    1,573
    Charming. I wish you well too.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  31. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    537
    You forgot marketing hype.
     
  32. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    1,591
    I stopped reading at Fanboys. If all you can do is try and drive some kind of wedge between what you perceive to be some kind of mythical right and wrong groups on a forum then in my opinion your views are not worth reading! Still I am sure typing it was good for your ego!
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
    • Like Like x 7
  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    1,591
    What do you want then? They can't win.

    They said they wanted to introduce things, they didn't, they were wrong.
    They now say they aren't going to introduce things, they are wrong.
    They have an aspirational road map, that is wrong too.

    I think some people just won't be satisfied.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
    • Like Like x 6
  34. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    No I didn't - I explicitly said to watch out for it... as marketing....

    The roadmap will no doubt be "iconic". And one day in the future... it will be regarded as "bygone"..... ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Absolutely... this place (and others associated with train simming) often makes me question my life choices...

    The important part is following through, as was stated by DTG-P above.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  36. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    537
    I am purely saying, that in my opinion, the "roadmap" that a lot of people are seeing as some kind of legal guarantee that features, routes etc will be implemented, is no more than a "wish list" from DTG and if they don't stick to what's on it. So what?

    In effect, again in my opinion, it's no more of a guarantee than DTG verbally saying TSW will have multiplayer and it will have an editor etc
     
    • Like Like x 2
  37. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    537
    Yes, but my point is who or what is going to make them follow through on their promises?

    For that you have to trust them and rely on their integrity. If you can do that, good. But there are many people for whom this announcement and path they have decided to take with TSW2, has been a breach of the trust they had in DTG from previous announcements they had made. And, for those people it may take time for DTG to gain that trust back.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Which is again what was said above.
    Nobody is forced to spend money, nobody should spend money based on what may be, only what is
    Nobody should listen to words and only look at actions and make a determination

    But then again I'm a pragmatist and my ex wife thought I was a robot, so maybe blindly following the words of those who show otherwise is the way to be and I'm the idiot. Then again the divorce is second on my list of "my wisest purchases" ever made...
     
    • Like Like x 4
  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    1,591
    How can the road map be legally binding? I think some people need to relax and stop overthinking and obsessing over everything.

    I think there needs to be a reality check here, we are talking about a business developing a new product. It is always an area fraught with maybes and a lot of time hopeful aspirations, for any business. Plans don't always work out, it might turn out something isn't worth implementing on purely an economic level, or in is unfeasible as it might break something else, or it isn't as popular as "we" think it is.

    As far as I am concerned, whatever the failings or perceived failings of the previous incarnation of TSW, DTG are now trying to be as straight with us as they can be, personally I think some of the answers of "no " might mean "no but not necessarily never" , but maybe that is partly our fault for the way we have scrutinised and accused at every juncture.

    You just have to use your own judgement and decide whether it is right for you. I don't think pages of going round in circles helps, it just confuses and muddies the straight messages that DTG have sent out.

    As far as I am concerned TSW is water under the bridge and I wait to see what TSW2 has to offer. I find myself rather more interested at the moment as to what TS1 has in store for the future as I am spending far more time on that at the moment.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Fourth option, you make a promise, then make decisions which stop that promise from happening. That seems to be what happened here.

    The editor has issues for DTG on some of the platforms and they want full functionality on those platforms in all they do (an aim stated several times), but rather than stating this in black and white terms (and annoying many many people) they let it lag to the point they couldn't say anything without the finger pointing and shouts of "Liar!"

    Now we've had some clarity (thank you DTG-P) we are all in the open as to what's going on, what's failed and why. There will be people (more than a few) who will decide that the DTG journey for them is now over, but I can think of about five things that DTG could do with almost immediate effect that would reverse some of that damage, and I just hope that DTG-P, Matt and the rest of the bods at DTG can crack their heads together, LISTEN and then do.

    Hope is a good thing, but hope that lasts forever in the face of the obvious is a sign of madness
     
    • Like Like x 4
  41. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    537
    Others need to wake up and smell the coffee and realise they are being given a prostate exam by DTG without lube!
     
  42. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    I note that this isn't an over-statement.

    It doesn't apply to me, as I had no aspirations for what TSW would be, as an evolution from TS1. (I have gone in the other direction, timewise... and so I am constantly pleasantly surprised by TS1....). I don't feel any sort of disappointment about promises being left undelivered with TSW.

    But the most deeply-invested parts of the community do feel utterly betrayed - and I am only just starting to understand the depth of feeling myself. I am absolutely sure that it is very real.

    When I say "deeply-invested"...... I mean financially, time-wise and emotionally. And this isn't even just about spending thousands of pounds/euros/dollars on DLC, and thousands of hours running the DLC. Some people have been actively building out models for the forthcoming (but never-to-arrive) TSW editor - wasting hundreds of their hours.... Those people must be utterly devastated. Although they could sell their wares on TS1....

    All I will say to you is this - don't give up on expressing your views and feelings. And if it turns out good in the end, I hope that you'd be around to be equally vocal about any successes. I am sure you would be - as you seem to be a reasonably straight-forward guy to me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  43. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    I don't think that this combo would smell like coffee.... ;-O
     
  44. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    1,074
    I wouldnt go as far to make the legal argument. I dont mind the £25 in order to open the next chapter. What I really am struggling with, is the discontinuation of TSW20 dlcs. Yes the simugraph must move on, yes DTG is a business and has to try and make profit, but to code themselves into a situation where TSW20 cannot carry on. Withdraw support for existing routes whilst remastering CSX as a new route. Only tells me that they found it was too much hassle, as opposed to an insurmountable task. Then to top it off, point the finger of blame at us for misunderstanding or letting our imaginations get the better of us.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  45. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    I actually think it is even easier to explain than this. I do not have a window into anyone's soul.... but the feeling that I get from all this is that developers at DTG are likely to be:

    - extremely enthusiastic;
    - highly aspirational; and,
    - sometimes unrealistic about what can actually be delivered, even if they really really really want to do it, and quickly.

    I don't see this as being evil, or dishonest.... per se. I actually find it quite charming in a way....... I have worked with people that are just as I describe above, and they are always really nice people. Not 100% sensible when it comes to programme and project management..... but enthusiastic and genuinely hard-working. Not people that you'd want to give £800 million to, and then ask them to refit a real railway station.

    This is possibly the best advice that I have ever received, when it comes to talking about project delivery:

    - "Always under-promise and then maybe over-deliver. Never over-promise and then certainly under-deliver."
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  46. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    1,472
    Oh, I don't think anyone can doubt the project leader's enthusiasm, commitment or work ethic, but they do question decisions being made and things being said which then don't get fed back into

    This is the part of it that grates for some. The TSx crowd were promised "the next generation of train simulation" and for many that means accurate physics, real time graphics, and a better management system than they had before, then we got track popping into view 20 yards ahead of your train, no scenario editor let alone route or asset and issues such as the 47 cropping up years into the game.
    And now to be told again that new things are coming... Isn't that what we were told last time?
    A very vocal mouthpiece on twitch and youtube (and someone I often agree with, though not always) did a good diatribe on the subject this week, and they're definitely speaking on behalf of the "train sim old guard"

    As I've said, I wait for actions rather than words and have my own thoughts on editors, 3rd party content etc (its a pain in the rear) and I will await what comes before passing judgement or card details.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  47. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    1,591
    What?!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  48. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2020
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    537
    Sorry, but because you used exclamation and question marks, it is making your comment unclear and therefore difficult to respond to appropriately.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  49. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2019
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    1,084
    Train simulator world does exactly what it claims to be. When Mudrunner released they planned on adding console mods but sadly as time went on they found out it was harder then they originally thought. Mudrunner is still a great game and just like with the editor for TSW it doesn’t make it less of a complete product.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  50. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2020
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Until DTG launch a Colonoscopy Simulator.... which could be called Colonoscopy Sim World.... then I think it might be a good idea to not take any comments about prostate exams....completely literally....

    I think it will take a long time before we see Colonoscopy Sim World... because the tech hasn't yet been created to deal with the tunnels at Standedge and NY Penn.... Let's see what happens with the Baker's Loo Line.

    I quite like the idea of a coffee though. Make mine a Grande..... Oooh - I quite fancy a Triple Chocolate Brownie for some reason..... ;-)
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page