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Xbox [fixed] Br185.2 Afb Strange Behaviour

Discussion in 'Technical Reports' started by federicodiliberto2001, Sep 10, 2020.

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  1. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    First, I only had one short trip with the BR 185.2 today as I mainly focused on the BR143 and the DoSto Cab Car, where everything seems fine.

    Today is my first day of the Ruhr Sieg Nord, hovewer I got to drive the BR185.2 that was included in the Main Spessart Bahn on TSW1/2020

    I'll do more testing tomorrow but I'll try to be as accurate as possible given my very limited experience:

    I noticed that the AFB on the BR185.2 included in the Ruhr Sieg Nord released on TSW2 has different performance, as expected, and is fine during acceleration, but if I tried to set it to a much lower speed (for example going from 105 km/h to 45 km/h) the AFB will not release the e. brakes until the train has almost completely stopped, even if I was holding the train and e. brake lever to "release" if this is how the AFB system works IRL and was part of the intended modification to this system than sorry for wasting everyone's time, but it seems rather odd, tomorrow I'll try to replicate it and give you a short clip.

    I noticed this didn't happen for less severe speed reduction inputs (for example 10/20 km/h) and it never happened on the BR143 (which has a completely different system anyway).

    Sorry for the lack of information, I'll get back to you tomorrow but I felt like if this was already a known issue it would have been useful to let you know as soon as possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  2. paweuek

    paweuek Member

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    I second that. I have identical experience! The only difference is I'm playing on PC, so it seems to na a cross-platform bug.
     
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  3. Bassarnis

    Bassarnis Member

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    Can confirm. It's the same on PC too. Seems like AFB is overshooting the target speed. It only happens when slowing down, accelerating works as normal.
    afb 1.jpg afb 2.jpg
     
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  4. Slemcer

    Slemcer Active Member

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    Overshooting the target speed is an old bug and has annoyed me specifically when driving the 143 with TSW 2020.
    It was extremely noticable for target speeds up to 40 kph when you're leaving the station.
     
  5. L89

    L89 Active Member

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    I just cut throttle power at that point and coast it. Had a fair few mishaps with PZB emergency brakes because I got too reliant on AFB.
     
  6. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so the problem is that the e. brake remains applied for some time after the train speed matches the AFB speed, here some clips:

    95 -> 50 w/throttle to max
    https://gameclips.io/FD1003/4c34523e-3cc4-4e50-a0ea-12a1caa6edb3

    95 -> 50 trying to release the brakes and moving the AFB and Throttle handle
    https://gameclips.io/FD1003/17bade3c-6453-450f-82e9-6af70683b17e

    80 -> 70 w/throttle to max
    https://gameclips.io/FD1003/ba9c8126-ab42-49a5-94ba-484202756fb6

    40 -> 30 w/throttle to max
    https://gameclips.io/FD1003/02e84b1e-4cc9-4a62-8243-a697d41bbf5b

    I think it's really easy to reproduce the cirmcustances that caused this bug, and I think it's inexcusable to release a product in this state, does this means no one at DTG never used the AFB in the BR185.2 before releasing this? This needs to be fixed as soon as possible, and must be considered as important as new DLCs, if they cost the same money as new DLCs they deserve the same treatment from DTG, or since this bug is non existent on TSW2020 I'll stick to that since it seems the better game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  7. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    It never happened to me on the two locos included in the Main Spessart Bahn, one of which is the same included in the RSN (BR185.2). I never had any issues with the BR143, where the AFB is simply inaccurate, as I believe it is in real life.

    Also it is not releasing the brakes until after 20kph lower than selected speed so it's a completely different problem.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  8. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    I tried it in my second clip

    And didn't work...
     
  9. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly it, really annoying isn't it? Also it never happen in TSW1/2020 with the same loco, I hope they fix it because AFB is everywhere we can't have almost every german loco bugged like this
     
  10. Bassarnis

    Bassarnis Member

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    Yeap, sure is. It will be nice to bring attention to this thread, mentioning it's affecting users on Xbox, PC, (Playstation also i assume?). Have you created a support ticket perhaps?
     
  11. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    I will create a support ticket now, just wanted to make sure it was not intended in the AFB upgrade we got in TSW2 and it was happening to other people as well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
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  12. F.Barnes

    F.Barnes Member

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    Same problem with AFB on the PS4.
    The only way to do it right, is to use the electric brake manually, before changing the speed of AFB.
    But that's no solution.

    They pushing more and more bugs in this game, even the preserved collection DLC getting worse than before. :(
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
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  13. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    The behaviour definitely isn't normal.

    I think the vast majority would have waited a couple of weeks longer if it meant that the content was improved (or at least not further broken).
     
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  14. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    That's horrible news, already sent a ticket, I hope they will notice it
     
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  15. Wooki74

    Wooki74 Member

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    Also I noticed when you lower the afb speed quickly it knocks the reverser out of gear aswell.at first ithought I was going crazy so tried it a couple of times same result. It does appear that they are going backwards with this new game making the old routes worse than they were does not make sense . Any fixes they bring out introduces new bugs so me thinks this game will never be right.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
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  16. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly it blows my mind how they managed turn a working thing into a broken one, at this point they are doing it on purpose as revenge to all the hate they were getting for not fixing bugs lol, I can't think of anything else
     
  17. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    I'm not so sure this is a bug. As you can see in the clips the AFB applies air brakes (up to 0.5 bar if I saw it correctly), it then releases the air brakes close to the target speed. When the change in speeds is great (for example being at 90km/h and then reducing AFB speed to 50) the brakes will have had enough time to apply.

    The German freight trains in TSW2 have the air brakes set to G (for goods or güter perhaps). What this means is that the brakes apply slower and release much slower than the passenger trains which uses setting R (rapid). For G-brake the application times are 18-30 seconds while the release times are 45-60 seconds. This is for a full service application (3.5 bar in the brake pipe), which would give the time to release a 0.5 bar application on average around 17 seconds. That means when the brake handle is set to release the brakes will still be retarding the train for another 17 seconds. In practice this may mean that the train slows down another 15-30 km/h after the brake handle has been set to release. Same rules apply for the AFB.

    There is in fact a "rule of thumb" among Swedish train drivers (my home country) that if a 1 bar application has been made from a high enough speed to let the brakes fully apply and then the brakes are released at 70 km/h the train will continue slowing down to 40 km/h until the brakes are fully released. If the target speed is low enough, it wouldn't surprise me that the train fully stops.

    I'm not quite sure how the real AFB is programmed but it wouldn't surprise me if it simply isn't able to handle freight trains in G-brake setting for the type of usage described in this thread. That could be the reason why I have never seen/heard the AFB used in German freight train driver POV videos for slowing down/stopping. This last paragraph is speculation though, so if any real drivers here know better I'd love some feedback. But I would caution against trying to "fix this bug", when it may in fact be realistic behavior.

    EDIT: Okay, I see now what you meant. The AFB demands electric braking even when under the target speed. I agree that this is a bug. However, I do still think that you will not be satisfied with the AFB performance on freight trains after this is fixed for the reasons described above. If you want a quick deceleration you need more air brake for heavy freight trains which means more overshoot due to the above reasons. Sort of like a P-controller with a delay that you still want to quickly reduce the error = high overshoot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
  18. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    No, the AFB only acts on the electric brakes of the loco, not on the airbrake, is you see the first clip the BC (Brake Cylinder) presure remains all the time at 0.0

    those settings you are talking about are not airbrake settings but PZB settings which are a completetely different thing, as they change the various PZB speeds and the time you have to reach those speeds. (or at least I think you are talking about that, I don't know you could change airbrake settings... maybe I'm just ignorant)

    Yes, you are right, however if this was was was going on you would see in the main screen the little triangle going back to 0, togheter with the yellow semi-circle (which BTW only indicates electric braking) and then we would see the airbrake slowly releasing, but what we see is the AFB holding the brake application way past the selected speed. (I'll try to give you a screenshot later).
    I'm completely fine with this, for example the BR143 is incredibily prone to oveshooting and such, and from my understanding it's accurate to real life, and it makes the loco interesting to drive and different from the others, I'd love for freights to be a bit different a maybe more difficult to drive since they are pretty boring for me now, but this is clearly uninteded and extremely annoying. Also Main Spessart Bahn freights were like that, like you couldn't just rely on AFB, and I never had a problem with them TBH, but at least it worked right
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  19. Deltic00

    Deltic00 Member

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    I’ve given up with the talent 2. Havent done a single service without being LOVE blocked to the main menu by a game breaking bug of some sort. They should never of released it in the state it’s in, imo its worse than the initial rapid transit version release and that was BAD.
     
  20. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure you are in the right thread?
     
  21. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Same on PC
     
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  22. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    No, this is incorrect. In the first clip you can clearly see that the brake pipe pressure (yellow needle, lower right gauge) is reduced. This means that the brake cylinder on the wagons *has* to increase, the locomotive uses dynamic brakes instead.

    No, I'm not talking about PZB but strictly physical valves in the air brake system. Do a google search for G-bremse, the freight trains use this setting as I have checked how long it takes to release (go to full service then release and apply 10%-20% throttle, time how long it takes for train to begin moving) and it lines up with G-brake timings. These increased application/release timings are implemented to avoid the train braking up because the front is braking while the rear is un-braked if the timings were shorter.

    Yeah, when I checked your clip more closely yesterday I saw that the AFB commanded braking even when V<Vsoll, that's why I made an edit. I just don't want people to get the impression that a fixed AFB will make the train act like a passenger train where you can slow quickly to 50km/h and not have the train overshoot, or if it's not overshooting cause the braking to be very slow making it useless for anything but fine tuning.
     
  23. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting I'll look more into both of those, I recall reading the AFB thing in one of the manuals, not 100% sure tho, thanks for the heads up, although it seems strange a system which uses the airbrake only on the coaches and not on the loco? But I guess you must be right.

    About the braking I know here in Italy we have different braking settings as well, however I don't know the german system or language to search more in depth documentation on the various systems.

    Again, reading back my messages I did sound a bit cocky and I apologize for that, it wasn't my intention, is just that this whole things makes me a bit too salty...

    Also do you work in the railway industry?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  24. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    My knowledge is more detailed for Swedish trains (my home country) so I don't know how common this function is in Germany, but I know that the Swedish "high speed" train X2 has a similar behavior. The driving trailer will prefer to use regenerative brakes rather than friction brakes. So if the train driver demands maybe 1 bar reduction of the brake pipe and this would correspond to 70 kN (example) of braking force on the driving trailer, then the driving trailer will simply apply 70 kN of regenerative braking instead of using air. The reason for this is that regenerative braking saves energy and also saves brake pad wear so you want to use it as much as possible.

    No problem! I was not offended. Many of these details are esoteric and not commonly know unless you work in the railway industry. For my own part, I'm actually not connected to the railway industry other than having taken a course in railway engineering at my university (I'm a physics student but did it for fun lol) but I have read many of the official documents and had correspondence with train drivers and other people in the industry though, both out of curiosity but primarily to mod the physics in TS20XX..
     
  25. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, same for me... to my knowledge none of our trains work like this, but I can't be 100% sure since those kind of informations are hard to come by... it makes sense, maybe I just don't know it... thanks again for the heads up, have a good day!
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  26. federicodiliberto2001

    federicodiliberto2001 Well-Known Member

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    • ★ [Fix] Ruhr-Sieg Nord : Resolved instances of incorrect AFB behaviour on DB BR 185/2
    I can confirm this has been fixed on XBOX, I like to think I was one of the main voices behind reporting this bug and I'm really happy to have contributed to make the game better, thanks DTG for fixing it, hopefully we will have much less to fix in the next releases
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020

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