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Flawed 112

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Monder, May 6, 2021.

  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    HHL Dostos have been talked about times and times again (but hey, light isn't bleeding through the roof), so I thought I would put together the problems of the Br 112 pulling them, which seems to also be riddled with a decent amount of problems. (HHL just keeps on "giving").
    upload_2021-5-6_21-59-36.png
    Headlights
    This one has been mentioned before - the centre headlight is bigger than the other two front lights. It is baffling how CTRL+C and CTRL+V can go wrong (they're all three supposed to be the same size). What is new about this, however, is the fact this will not be fixed. Supposedly resizing the headlight would be a really difficult task. So yeah 112 will stay wrong possibly forever.
    upload_2021-5-6_22-0-6.png
    Front Lights

    Also, the front lights of the loco are wrong as they are too close to each other. Though this one hasn't been asked about in the stream, it's safe to assume the situation will be the same as with the headlight.
    Honestly, these two problems together are absolutely baffling. These are not "rivet counter" things, this is a basic shape of the loco being wrong and staying so. HOW?
    Sound

    143 sounds (also having a bunch of problems since porting to TSW2) reused without a second thought. 112 is 500 kW stronger, 10 years younger and has 40 km/h higher top speed. It seriously doesn't sound the same (and as wrong for that matter).
    112 freight
    upload_2021-5-6_22-8-58.png
    This one is my personal "favourite" - 112 is used on freight services in HHL. It has freight services shown in a timetable in the first stream and even appeared in the trailer today. This is similar to the 101 freight situation. 112s don't run freight at all, 143s nowadays do as DB is selling them to private companies to use for freight. 112 is still a pretty valuable asset for DB because of its relatively low age and high speed. I have found only one instance where 112 has been leased to a company for one train in 2018. Some might argue this adds more gameplay, but gameplay probably should be within the realms of what you can see considering the game has "Sim" in the title.
    EDIT: Here I have to give credit to Joe, the creator of the timetable though, who mentioned it being raised to DTG as a bug. Hopefully a better ending than with the headlights here.
    Some little ones: (these could be considered nitpicks :D)
    -pantographs are once again wrong on AI services when going cab car front (this is probably a core problem as it appears on all German locos with cab cars)
    -supposedly the brake lever is wrong, though the only difference I have found on it is the ball size (no laughing matter)
    -control sum - these numbers after the dash appear on a bunch of the 112s, but are on no of the ones in the game (I admit, this is really a nitpick)
    upload_2021-5-6_22-34-31.png

    Overall it seems really weird to me how this loco got butchered in the modelling phase as rolling stock shape usually is without a problem and it's the functionality being wrong. And it likely won't be fixed. Compared to the last german release (HMA) this whole DLC is brought down by so many problems it's like a death by a thousand cuts... except some of them are shots... from a shotgun.

    If you found something else, feel free to throw it in. I suspect there might be bogey differences between 143 and 112 (usually you have extra dampers for higher speeds), but no idea if that is the case IRL or if it has/hasn't been modelled. Just thought that might get missed when going from 143 to 112 (which probably was a case when making this model).
     
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  2. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    All I can say is thank you for the detailed comparisons. But after I burned all my fuel on the forums after the first stream, I just can't go on about this route anymore. There is so much wrong with it. Hearing that they acknowledged the visual mistakes they have made with the 112 but then just said "yeah its not gonna be fixed" seals this case for me. I did not really expect anything to be done to it, but something inside me was hoping that there would be some pride left in order to at least get the loco looking right.
    Makes you wonder what source material they used for modelling anyway to end up having it look like this.

    50% discount, until then, no buy. Done.
     
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  3. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... the "loco DLC" price seems fair for this as you're buying basically a nice route with... something on it.
     
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  4. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    If it wasn't for livery editior function and a unexpected freight wagon i wouldn't even consider this route.
     
  5. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Even Nat said on one question that someone said the wrong 112 Headlights are dealbreaker, and NAT said to not buy the dlc then.
    That’s how DTG handle critic in a really bad way, even on Legends of Great Western, if you don’t like it don’t buy it.

    It’s not How Company’s should treat customers like Garbage.
     
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  6. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Wait, there was an unexpected freight wagon? which one if I may ask?
     
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  7. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    That is what I'm going to do. Not buy it. Not at the standard price and not with a discount.
     
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  8. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The lack of enthusiasm and hope for fixes in the future for this DLC might have convinced me not to buy it.

    As said countless times, the route and the timetable is fantastic and I would love to get it one day, but not in this state, the AFB bug which appeared with the first Pres.Co release back in September last year, wrong DoStos, wrong 112, etc...

    Again, we see the artist one step ahead of the dev team, first with the ballast on LGV now on destination screens.

    I was quite looking forward to this DLC, oh well at least RT will receive a free update so I will be in no shortage of trains to play. With my BR182 with working AFB and without having the MFD outside my field of view :)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  9. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Personally for me, the headlight differences seem negligible...but I've never been one of those rivet counters so I didn't really see too much of an issue with the wrong dostos being used either. I appreciate it is an issue for other people though

    For me it is always about the gameplay and the route itself rather than a headlight being slightly larger or a couple of cms to the left or right
     
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    She does have a point but at the same time isn't the whole point of showcasing dlcs is to get many people to buy it as possible? When DTG say that they make "Authentically Replicated Routes and Locos" some actually expect that and telling people not to buy it because of errors from possibly potential customers is not good business practices. That's how you treat potential customers as garbage. But hey I'll listen to Nat's advice and not buy the route. They should've made the Hamburg S-Bahn instead
     
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  11. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I think you may be going a bit far with the 'treating customers as garbage' statement -- The way I interpreted it is the same as when Sam says something similar: If you feel so negatively towards something to the point where it makes you not want to buy it....don't buy it and save your money (and sanity), because the thing/s which are stopping you from buying it most probably will not be changed. You are not expected to buy every single piece of DLC which is released...it is all about choice at the end of the day.
     
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  12. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    DTG wants to make money?Would it really be asking to much for them to atleast pretend to care about at least some of the time when things are mentioned in there forums where they ask us to post comments.Otherwise why have a forum if they don't care about anything anyone says.
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Nah I didnt take it too far. Obiovously dtg doesn't expect players to buy every dlc but isn't the whole point to showcase dlc's is to get people to buy them? Also not everyone doesn't have to buy everything but dtg should keep making good quality trains across the board. If I am spending $20-$30 on dlc's, I expect that to be the case especially if they already have reference for a particular train such as the high floor dostos which was in the TS2021 version of this route and say they make "Authentically Replicated Routes and Locos". Not go live and say a low floor dostos and high floor dostos are not all that different when they actually are. It makes it seem as if they don't really care. That person who asked about the dostos could've been a potential customer.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  14. OsamaBinLiftin

    OsamaBinLiftin Member

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    You complain wayyy more than you play it seems
     
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  15. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a 3D artist so I might be wrong with this, but it looks to me that adjusting the size of the light and adjusting its position shouldn't take more than 15 mins being generous. When customers tell you something is wrong, it takes 15 mins to fix, and you do not fix it you are sending a clear message to your customers.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  16. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    If it was a 15min fix they would probably fix it....but from what Matt said on stream it is way more work than 15mins
     
  17. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Well i'm not in this club alone.So what if i or anyone complain,it's not we are making up anything.
     
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  18. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, regardless of what was wrong with any route, or the Loco sounds or the gameplay, so far one could always praise their models for looking great and accurate. You could tell that even if it fails on any other level, that at least the loco model was made with love and passion.
    But now we get a loco that does not look right, and it is not something that would be barely noticeable - if you know that train from real life, or even pictures, it becomes clear that something is wrong rather quickly.
    I just hope that it is a one-time flaw and not a precedent for less care applied to rolling stock.
    Just imagine the reactions if the upcoming class 313 or a potential acela express had headlights that have the wrong size and placement and easily noticeable at that.
     
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  19. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, maybe they could listen to the community and their feedback
     
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  20. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Okay, feedback is another thing. But it is the underlying decisions made that have me left wondering. There are massive train heads at DTG, so one might ask how the 112 went through all the processes without being noticed off.
    Either they did not notice that it was not done accurately, which would be bad, or they did notice but went with it anyway, which also is bad.
    Same questions can be asked for the Dostos. I want to absolutely distance myself from what certain other individuals said, like DTG being lazy and treating customers like garbage. I might be unhappy with this release, but never would go that far.
    I only hope to provide a way of reflection for the devs, so that mayyyyybe in the future they will say "this is not up to our standards, we will pass over it once more".

    Oh, and since DTG said they have to send everything in for approval, I am a bit astonished that DB found no issues with the Loco?
     
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  21. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    At least they were honest, and I really respect that. Probabily if they just replied in the "didn't notice / see what can be done" way, I think nobody would have complained too much if it ended up not being fixed, and by saying it will never be fixed on the stream they might have lost customers just for being honest, and that is appreciated.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  22. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Very true, at least they are honest and up front about it, so to not trick people into buying, hoping for fixes that will never come. That is fair.
     
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  23. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Why they fixed Southeastern High Speed a lot and the wrong 112 want stay badly as before?
    Even the PIS System is completely wrong on the Trains and Station without the RE and RB Services and the Line Number.
    But on the Artwork it is right and it’s a lie how it looks ingame.
     
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  24. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    But how? It is a 3D model. The lights definitely will be a separate model put on the mainframe. Moving/making them smaller should seriously be doable. There might be an "emit light from here" thing placed where they are... if that can't be moved, how the hell is the creator software programmed? Fixing 112 should be easy, if it's not, the structure of the game is wrong.
     
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  25. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    For me personally, the only real issues from this thread are the 112 on freight and the wrong pantos on the services. The rest is no big problem for me or even at all although it’s my local route.

    There are other issues not directly related to the 112 though but those are not for this thread, I will post them somewhere else.
     
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  26. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    Omg, where did they fix highspeed 3D models on Southeastern? So far, no 3D models have been fixed anywhere on any route. If DTG were to fix the headlights, they would also have to do a Quality Access that takes several hours. With every adjustment, DTG has to do a QA afterwards and that is not worthwhile only for the 112 Lights.
    Not completely wrong, you are completely exaggerating. RE / RB are missing, as are the platform numbers, but there are also many stations where there are no platform numbers in Germany. Matt said he wanted to find out why there was no RE / RB ...
    Because it's a painted picture :) You can see very well that this is not the game.

    But you can see on the remaining pictures before you buy what the train destination display looks like in the game ...
     
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  27. stijn.claessens

    stijn.claessens Active Member

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    Yeah i bet artists love people who don't do their job telling them: "hey it can't be more then 15 minutes of your time , right?"
     
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  28. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Sadly true. I had only seen the 112 in a handful of pictures, never in real life, and the first thought I had when DTG shared screenshots was This doesn‘t look right.

    On another note, did anyone happen to hear the sounds for the 112 clearly? I didn‘t and I‘m afraid of the 112 being as quiet as the 143. I stood besides a 143 once and the fans on them scream your ears off.
     
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  29. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Don’t worry everyone, the feedback has been taken on board, they’ve really listened.

    That’s why they’ve changed....nothing.

    I get that DTG have to make concessions in places in order to fit schedules, but on a route with no new rolling stock, then there’s no excuse, if what we’re getting has been rebuilt, then I don’t get why it was done so incorrectly, and in the long run DTG make it worse for themselves, because now they’ll probably have to deal with increased scrutiny of future rolling stock, although I suppose that doesn’t really bother them since their current attitude towards authenticity is that it isn’t worth it for the amount of work and that if we don’t like it then we shouldn’t buy it, but at that point why am I playing TSW? What if I really liked the 112, and your product is advertised as having highly detailed authentic trains but then I get the 143 moulded to be a 112? along with incorrect carriages that are so incorrect you get stuck getting on and off them.
     
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  30. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The mentally about how they handle the Feedback and Critics about wrong stuff is childish and a punch in our face, who support this game so much and spend a lot of money.

    Matt is the Senior Producer but don’t care about the High Entry Dostos or an awful 112 3D Model with looks like recycled from the 143.

    Edited by DTG Natster - Removed inappropriate language, please update yourself on the forum rules before posting again.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2021
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  31. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm the db br 101 add on loco get 2 brand new coaches 1st&2 class,yet building 1 new dosto high door coach is to much work for a full price route.
     
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  32. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Active Member

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    Is it just me or did it get really awkward when the dostos were being mentioned. Also when asked about the 112 sounds... Not knowing whether they are new or not.. "just assume they're the same" so A they don't care enough to know and B don't seem to care how it sounds
     
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  33. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    their apparent lack of knowledge regarding features and development choices has always been a thing, if it’s genuine then it’s a little alarming that the senior producer doesn’t know what it is he’s produced, if it’s disingenuous then it’s just a get out clause from something they don’t want to discuss.
     
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  34. Task

    Task Well-Known Member

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    To be fair they would have to build 2: one first class and one second class.
     
  35. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Can DTG not hire Maik Goltz or more German TS Content Artist like 3DZUG and Virtual Railroads for the 3D Models.

    Its bad when DTG make the train and Fahrphysik, and when you look on the 423, 425, 363 and 101 from Maiks hard work.
     
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  36. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    But compared to IC coaches for 101 these have the same outside shape, very similar interior (not one having coupes) and basically only have different seats inside (which might be usable from the current dostos). It is two coaches, but they're fairly similar.
     
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  37. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    They do hire Maik to do work for them. The problem is that there is only one Maik and there are only 24 hours in a day, and he has other things to be getting on with. I don’t know about the other guys.
     
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  38. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think that's the problem, more specifically it works using the same "emit light from here" of the BR143 and for some reasons it can't be easily moved or changed. Might be the same reason why they didn't do the small headlight variant of the 375?

    20210507_011055.jpg
    20210507_011154.jpg

    Is it not the same with a squared off frame around it? Also looks like they moved the two "plugs" slightly upwards? I wonder why.

    Would also explain why the lower headlights are closer.

    Obviously it's just a conspiracy theory not really have any proof of that.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  39. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    This might be a really good point, especially for the lower lights. They're probably in the very same spot as on 143, but due to their smaller size, they're too far from the edge of the loco. Still don't get the headlight though, it's nearly the same size and the same spot as on 143, but they made it so much bigger.
     
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  40. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Now that I look at it, if you scaled down the 143 headlights (the lower ones), they would end up where the TSW 112 headlights are. I think we may have stumbled upon the explanation for the lights and why they can't be changed easily. It seems that DTG may have re-used the 143 lighting setup and changing it now would be a terrible mess of working with the 143 setup and the 112 changes applied to it simultaneously.
     
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  41. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly... maybe for the lower headlights they managed to find a way to make them smaller but for some reason doesn't work on the upper one? Probabily we will never know for sure, but I can't see any other reason why it should be so difficult to correct them.
     
  42. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I think the upper one is even larger than on the Br 143, so that's not the case.
     
  43. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    This is not just "lamp out, new lamp in". You have to adapt the whole model for this, it doesn't just take 5 minutes, it would take a long time because the lamps are integrated in the model. To fix the other model errors, you have to make a completely new building. That would be way too expensive, a few thousand euros.
     
  44. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    The light is the same, with the frame around it that makes it look bigger

    That's the point, why use the BR143 light setup if you end up with a wrong looking model? Make a new one, it's not like this DLC is packed full of new features and trains already
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  45. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I don't think so. On 143 it's about the height of the UIC sockets, "starts" below the grab iron and "ends" well above the white stripe. 112 has it "start" at the same spot and end way closer to the stripe (and the slight edge above it). It is also way taller than the sockets. So yes, it is bigger.
     
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  46. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    During the Stream it was indeed commented on that some of you feel the lights are a deal breaker. Enough so that it will stop you from enjoying the route in it's entirety.

    I responded to a particular comment and suggested that if they are certain they will not be getting any enjoyment from this route because of this, it's wise to save their money and spend it on something they are certain they will like more instead.

    I understand many of you have been looking forward to this route, and you would have liked to purchase it. But you don't feel like it's at a standard you have come to expect, for several reasons. And I realise why having me suggest holding off on purchasing it can be disappointing.

    You would rather see it updated than not buy it - To clarify, there are no plans to update the lights or locos before launch.

    Your comments and feedback have been taken on board, do not doubt that.
    It can often feel like we aren't listening to you.
    We are, and explaining the way you feel is extremely helpful.

    As such I have had conversations internally about how we can improve and avoid such disappointments in the future. We want to provide you with a route you enjoy and are happy with. As well as something we are proud of.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  47. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, I stand corrected, then I really have no idea, surely if they built it from scratch it would have been right? Without more info it's impossible to be sure.
     
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  48. TheShotte

    TheShotte Well-Known Member

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    I'm a stickler for details, I really am. In the case of the DB BR 112 center headlight, whilst I agree that it is a tad bit too large, in it's real life counter-part, the center headlight is a tad bit bigger then the left and right ones, but it's angled every-so-slightly upward which may make it seem smaller than it is. In the game, they should've made it like 5% bigger, but they made it like 10-15% bigger which is too much.

    [​IMG]
     
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  49. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Can we have someone local to the route take a ruler and measure the diameters of all three lights? :D To settle the discussion on them? :D
     
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  50. TheShotte

    TheShotte Well-Known Member

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    Straight up. I'm surprised no one has done this yet. If anyone can get it done without breaking any laws, could you please do it? Actually go and measure it to solve this conundrum once and for all?
     
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