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Flawed 112

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Monder, May 6, 2021.

  1. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    We have had this picture here before. The angle makes it look bigger. Compare other pictures and it becomes obvious it is the same headlight. From what I learned, when they built this loco irl, they used the exact same light for all three spots.
    And that does still not explain why the lower ones are too close to each other.
     
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  2. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    For anyone with doubts, go to
    www.br143.de and navigate to "fotos" on the left, and then "BR112" in the middle.

    Railfans there have tracked each individual loco and uploaded a ton of pictures from all kinds of angles.
     
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  3. TheShotte

    TheShotte Well-Known Member

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    The problem with photos is that they can be very deceitful. Perspective and angle can alter the perception of it's subject. So whilst some claim that the photo I posted makes said headlight look big, i say that the photos they look at makes it seem small. In all the photos I've looked at, there's an uncanny difference between the center and side lights. To me, in all the photos, it looks slightly larger, whereas because it's angled upwards, it should look smaller if it was the same size. One thing everyone seems to fail to realize is the fact that DTG has the manufacturers backing and resources. It's not up to the artists discretion, they probably have drawings that outline everything in detail. As far as I'm concerned, although the light in-game does look a tad bit bigger than it does in the pics, until someone goes and measures all the lights, there is no point in further speculating. We've all stated our opinions.
     
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  4. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    Watching this video, I am convinced the upper headlight is bigger than the lower two. This is likely my perception but doesn’t mean it’s the case.

    When modelling a train, I would certainly expect DTG to get the size and proportions of every aspect of a locomotive correct. If not prepared to do so, why bother in the first place?

    Whether the top headlight is actually bigger or not, unless exact measurements are taken, we’ll likely never know for certain.

    I agree that the two lower headlights look too close together, but again, this could be perception only.

     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  5. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    There’s no need for anyone to measure anything. The three lights on the front of a real 112 are all the same size. They all have the same enclosure with only the lights inside being different. It’s plain to see from the many near square-on photographs available from multiple sources online (if you look at them properly accounting for the angle of the light fittings, the angle the photograph was taken at and lens distortions). It makes perfect sense to use light fittings that are the same size when designing these things for real. The artist has made an error in modelling the train with both the size of the three light fittings and their correct position on the train, which isn’t the end of the world. But it has happened.

    078F5FF4-0CB3-4E2F-94AB-5EE3753A7830.jpeg

    This is a screenshot detail of a fairly square on photo (taken from a reasonable distance) stolen off the internet. If you measure the distance between the two screws on the light fittings (do it on your screen now) they are the same for both light fittings, despite how the two lights may look slightly different when you look at them together. The picture is almost square on, is from sufficient distance to flatten the front aspect of the subject (like in a professional portrait shot) and the bottom light is pointing down as much as the top light is pointing up, from the perspective of the photographer, so vertical measurement errors would cancel out. It is reasonable to expect that vertical measurements will be comparable in this image. Hence, the conclusion of the investigation is that the light fittings are the same size.
     
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  6. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    A day ending in Y so here I am once again wondering if people play this game for fun or for the sole purpose of being miserable.
     
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  7. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I play the game for fun and come on the forum to make other people miserable, or happy, depending on how they take my posts!
     
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  8. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    DTG need to ask the German Community before they make the 3D Model for this Trains for Feedback and Help, or if some creator want make it for a cheap Money.
     
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  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure to what extent it's visible, but from a mechanical perspective they are very different indeed, since on the 143 the traction motors are mounted on the bogies whereas on the 112 they're mounted on the frame and drive the axles through quills. In fact that and the gear ratio is the primary difference between the two.
     
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  10. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I doubt anyone here blames the artists for any of this.
     
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  11. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    If they want to keep re-using existing models with a few modifications to make another model, this is obviously not the way to go.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  12. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but don't forget that the guy that made the BR 101 put 1.5x more work on it than what he was payed for. We can't thank him enough tbh.
     
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  13. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    It was Maik Goltz who make the BR 232 and 420 plus Vossloh G6.
    And also the 101 for working 10 weeks on the Physik.
     
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  14. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the pictures, it seems what is most noticeable is the different relative position to the sockets. Those also seem to be a bit too high relative to the white line. Can't really tell if it is an effect of the light size, the sockets or both, but it is very noticeable.
     
  15. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Well clearly since he willing to put in the work dtg should have ask him if he was interested in making a high door dosto.Since they weren't.
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Probably wouldn't have time to make High Door Dostos
     
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's my understanding that the original 212/112s (DR) and the later 112.1s (joint DB/DR order, right before the merger) have different headlights: the first batch being built by LEW and the second also at Hennigsdorf but under AEG ownership.
     
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  18. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    To be very very honest... this one definitely goes to the artist. Regarding the comment you answered to I don't think it might be a 15-minute job, artist might be angry reading such a thing... but the artist is definitely the one to blame for this (maybe along with people pushing him to get the thing out soon).
    The DR 112s have all been renumbered to 114s in 2000, they have nearly identical lights to the 143s.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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  19. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Was it misinformation or did he work on the BR101 10 weeks but was only paid for 4 weeks? If that is true, it would imply that DTG are only willing/able to pay contractors/devs for a fraction of the work required to finish the products to a high standard.

    Previous releases seem to show that DTG draw up a budget in man hours/time and are not willing to budge on it, even if the budget wasn't enough.(HBL in TSW2, Frankfurt-Koblenz, WCML south etc comes time mind).
     
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  20. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I just want to show you what Maik Goltz had to say about the overtime. It's not quite as black and white as one might think.
     
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  21. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the clarification. I still stand by my second paragraph (DTG must have known about the bugs and performance of ECML S during QA and still decided to release in that state) but your clarification means my first paragraph does not imply the second. I can understand if Maik wanted to experiment/learn during development that DTG cannot pay for the full time of this process. Still, I have huge respect for Maik working for free to implement things such as functioning brake mode selectors (G,P,R) and anti-slip systems when the BR101 could have been released without these things.

    If DTG intended for these features to be included then my respect for them grows as well. Not black and white, as you said.
     
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  22. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely agree.

    I just want to clarify that I did not mean to attack your statement in any way. I just felt that if we drag Maik Goltz into the argument again, his own statement about the overtime should be taken into consideration. I agree that especially as of late, there seems to have been a bit of a disconnect between the actual budget and the needed budget in DTG's planning.
     
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  23. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    No worries, I didn't perceive it as an attack, and I appreciate you giving me the context for that quote I vaguely remembered :)
     
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  24. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason to blame DTG with that. It was my decision to do more than i was asked about to do by DTG. It wasn't "do all that stuff but we dont pay for it", no no. It was "make the 101 ready to go with the standards of TSW2". I accepted that and did way more than that on my own risk. I think the words got misuntderstood. I said that the work that was involved didn't got paid. That does not mean that i asked for extra payments for it. There was a clear contract assignment. The work i put in was worth more, but that is my very own problem.
     
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  25. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I have done the same on many consulting gigs, because taking pride in the finished product is way more rewarding to me than just the final paycheck. Thanks for your efforts, they are appreciated.
     
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  26. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    DB BR 420(EMU)that Maik Goltz is working on is more then just a straight single shunter/electric/diesel)loco which he has also been working on as well,hopefully he get's more then 4 weeks worth of pay for this one.
     
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  27. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Well, we can reward him by buying it and reccomending it to others. Both of which I probably will, knowing the standard he works to.
     
  28. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    He’s developing that himself as a third party, not working for DTG. He’ll be paying himself from sales of the product.
     
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  29. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Are you deliberately this clueless?
     
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  30. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Fine so your a grammar expert,after i figure out my error i try rewording it to your satisfaction.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  31. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I don't think his objection is grammatical
     
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  32. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I'm really glad you did. It is a fantastic product.
     
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  33. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Sadly that Maik not make the 112 Loco, so it’s a Bad Loco from the 3D Model and the drivers Physik.
     
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  34. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    DB628

    How do you know how the train is going? You think everything that is from DTG is unrealistic, but actually you have no idea and just want to do bashing.


    I have never read a post from you that cannot be immediately blown to pieces.
     
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  35. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Agreed!

    Maik neither did - to my knowledge - the 3D Model of the BR 101, yet the 3D Model is spot on. Your logic just broke, sorry.
     
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  36. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Wow this route getting put thru the ringer and it's not even out,and with dtg record of issued filled dlc releases i don't even want to imagine what other issues players will find before the route been out 24 hours.

    To borrow a few lines from DIE HARD 2.
    Airport Mgr to mclain"Is this what you expected?".
    Mclain"Nope this is just the beginning".
     
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  37. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I apologize, my message was not as clearly formulated as it should have been. I did not wish to imply that some shady business practices were going on. My comment about actual vs needed budget refered more to Hamburg - Lübeck, where more budget, pergaps for a new loco or new wagons, would have been appreciated by the community.
     
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  38. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    It's sad that with HHL they've themselves gone well below their own standards. I was more sceptical about the 101 thanks to the "lack of content", but it turned out really great, I still sometimes struggle with the "Superschlupf", but that's its learning curve. And then HHL - the one I was rather certain would be good - turns out the way it does. Ironic if you ask me.
     
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  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, it is possible that HHL turns out to be a fantastic route, as a route, independent of the rolling stock issues, which boil down really to four:

    1) "Wrong headlight" on the 112- really makes no difference to me, a rivet-counter concern
    2) Wrong Dostos: that does bug me a bit (although TBH I would never have noticed had not these forums made a big deal of it.) I was rather distressed by Matt's apparently dismissive comment "they're basically the same, what's the big deal?" though. Surely he didn't mean it quite like it came out- we all know Matt is a true railfan.
    3) No layer for shunters, yet again. When oh when are DTG going to make the 204 and 363 useful beyond a single route apiece? Yes, this bugs me as a shunting fan, as well as a fan of populated freight yards
    4) But finally, the one issue which for me decides the buy/no buy question: lack of new rolling stock altogether. This is a complaint which acc. to Sam has been a "light bulb moment" for DTG- I'm really rather amazed they hadn't figured this out on their own. New rolling stock sells routes.
     
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  40. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I am sceptical even about the gameplay, you just have runs up and down the line or parts of the line, not much else. I agree though, shunters are needed here.
     
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  41. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that for me is the reason I like the idea of Riesa - Dresden, and not of Hamburg - Lübeck, even though they both offer no (really) new rolling stock. Riesa - Dresden has the rolling stock we know operate different types of services, mainly the BR 143 and 146.2 on the S-bahn, while I'm used to doing RE/RB runs with them. In addition to that Riesa - Dresden has many branches, which give a feel of a network, something I also really like about RRO and HRR, even though these do it a little different. On the other hand Hamburg -Lübeck offers no new gameplay types.

    Totally agree, definetely on a route that prides itself with the enormous amount of freight on it. I really hope Riesa - Dresden will finally come with shunting (and light, short haul freight) services for the BR 363 and BR 204.
     
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  42. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    ... well I think there is one point you missed there: The RE you can drives (I think RE/RB 80/81) is a complete line. So you can go up and down between Hamburg and Lübeck the whole day with the same train. I know, this is not completely new to TSW (--> Bakerloo line), but it's unique for german routes. I know this isn't the best point to convince someone who is sceptical to buy it. But it still is worth mentioning.
     
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  43. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I mean, yeah that's new for German routes, but not really a thing I'm personally interested in. I understand some people like it, but it's just not my kinda thing.
     
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  44. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    If TS2021 version is anything to go by, there's quite a lot of yards (Riesa) and industrial complexes (Nünchritz, Riesa Stahlwerke, Niederau) that could seriously benefit from some shunting and freight train forming... even if I have to get TSG G6 for that (I firmly believe it will be great). There's a bunch of things to do along the way and DTG should definitely use that.
     
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  45. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Seems like they're "rivet counter" things to me...
     
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  46. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I will just say, wait for your favorite loco to arrive and then having it look like someone kicked it in the face.
    This is not about a bench at a station or a building sitting a few meters off. It is a loco that according to descriptions has been authentically recreated. It is not, it is plain wrong. It is not a 112.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  47. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    The bottom lights are slightly too close together, and the top headlight is slightly too big. It's still a BR112, even if you claim inaccuracies of a couple of centimetres somehow make it something else entirely. Don't be silly. This is a complete non-issue.
     
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  48. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I will stand by my point, there have been less centimeters of changes made to a train to warrant it carrying a different number. Don't know why you need to get personal though.
     
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  49. Cotax

    Cotax Active Member

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    Well, I must admit - I kinda understand the problem in some way, but on the other hand - this topic just showed me, how happy i really am not being bothered with small details and just enjoying the game/sim. :)
     
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  50. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, DB628 did also say driving physics. I challenge you to name another TSW locomotive that has as realistic physics as the BR101.
     

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