Freight Trains Max Speeds

Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by Railmaster, Apr 22, 2022.

  1. Railmaster

    Railmaster Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys,

    Here's a question that I'm sure has been answered before, but I can't really find a suitable answer.

    It's about the maximum permissible top speeds on the different railway systems in TSW, with regard to freigt-trains.

    On the German routes I usually still travel without a PZB, also because I often cannot classify the type of train correctly or without further ado. So I usually follow the lower train type and drive a maximum of 90 km/h.

    Converted, I don't drive faster than 60mi in the UK. Even if the track limit allows more. In the US, the route limit usually already limits the speed if it is exclusively a freight train route.

    Unfortunately, it is not specified how fast a specific freight train is allowed to travel on a specific route. That depends not least on the wagon formation and the length of the train. I don't want to make this more complicated than it really is, I'm asking for a kind of rule of thumb.

    So what is a recommended possible maximum speed for freight trains in GER, UK and US? How do you manage that?

    Many greets & thanks :)
     
  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Germany: very complicated. There is a thread on it; what it boils down to is using a series of tables which determine which brake settings to use on each car, and the maximum permitted speed given the brake settings and the ruling grade on the route. But as a practical gaming matter,* every German freight wagon type in the game (save one) is limited to a max 100 km/h when loaded. Note that this is independent of PZB mode: it is quite common to run under Mode M but still be capped at 100 (or less).

    Britain: much simpler. Services with headcodes beginning with 4 are limited to 75 mph; 6 headcodes are restricted to 60. There are lower speed limits for higher numbers but I don't believe any appear in TSW.

    US: National freight speed limit of 79 mph. Rarely will the line limit allow that much.

    _____________________
    *Note that brake modes for German freight wagons can only be set on the Riesa-Dresden models; older routes are fixed in G.
     
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  3. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The problem is the speeds aren't always correctly reflected on the HUD in game either.

    Just as an example on GWE the Class 4 Freightliners have a maximum speed of 75 MPH but the HUD always shows the maximum line speed. This is further compounded by failing to show where there are differential speeds for freight and passenger. On the relief lines the maximum speed for all freight is only 60 MPH on most of the stretch due to signal spacing and greater braking distances, but this is not reflected on the HUD which continues to show 75, 80 or even 90 MPH.
     
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  4. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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  5. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    A very easy table for german you can use is:
    Loaded: max speed 100kph
    Empty: max speed 120kph
    Weight over 1300t: pzb U
    Weight under 1300t: pzb M
    Intermodal trains (all containers) always 120kph and pzb M. Loaded or not.

    This is not how works in real life but works very near to it. And you can have a great experience with every german freight services in the game.

    Sorry for the double message but the first one doesn't quote you
     
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  6. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    This is a function of the game's construction: line speed is a fixed attribute of each section of track and the HUD is cued to that, not any other limits that might apply. Similarly German Zs3 limits are not reflected in the HUD.
     
  7. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Railmaster, I know not everyone is interested in this level of realism but in case you are, here are the relevant posts for Germany:

    This is my summary for all the calculations you need to do with a focus on freight (since passenger trains are very straightforward usually).

    Some very useful tools were created by tygerways#2596 and OpenMinded. All are available on the discord server linked in those threads:
    • Spreadsheet for the calculations on DRA (including a Buchfahrplan)
    • Buchfahrplantool for DCZ
    • EBuLa beta for DCZ
     
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  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Possibly but I'm sure when driving the German G6 shunter, the HUD tops out at 80 km/h or whatever the loco top speed is, not the track speed.
     
  9. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That’s a relatively new function of the newest dispatcher if I recall Maik Goltz’s explanation correctly. You can now set a top speed limit for an individual service and he used that to limit the shunting services to the prototypical 25km/h speed limit and the mainline runs to the loco’s top speed of 80km/h
     
  10. Railmaster

    Railmaster Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your answers!

    That gives me enough clarity. I don't insist on it being totally realistic, but it makes sense to go with reality. Here I was not quite sure what applies where. I can do a lot with this information! Thanks again :)
     
  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This is one of the things I hope they get to in a fix sometime. The HUD shows the line speed rather than the speed someone should be driving at most of the time. This even impacts when there are split speeds on UK routes which don't reflect in the HUD

    When there are two speeds one above the other in the UK freight (or loco hauled) are supposed to operate at the top given speed with the rest operating at the bottom speed. This isn't always reflected in game, noticably on BML
     
  12. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    For American routes that carry freight there are normally two limits on each sign - freight on the bottom and passenger on the top. The freight limit is generally the lower of the two. When running on the flat or uphill I will generally stay within a few mph of the lesser of the line limit and the max speed of the loco. When going downhill I tend to stay 5 to 10 mph under the line limit - on gradients over 2% 10 to 20 mph under the limit to give you wiggle room when it starts to get away.

    For routes with PTC and ACSES and equipped locomotives, the ADU will tell you your speed. So far only passenger equipment has this functional in game.

    Paul
     
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  13. Railmaster

    Railmaster Well-Known Member

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    It is logical that the HUD only shows the distance limit. After all, it applies universally to all trains running on the route. It would certainly be very time-consuming to implement the corresponding HUD display for each individual service.

    In the German trains it is also well implemented using PZB/Zugarten. But the question was, how do I even know which type of train I have to use without studying tables.

    And at least there are ACSES on the US routes, albeit mostly for passenger services only. Although the distance limit on the track is clearly visible, you have to know how fast you are actually allowed to travel with your train.

    Suppose a route segment (US/UK) is limited to 60/45mi. So I'm only allowed to travel 45mi with a freight train. But if my limit allows 60mi according to the train number, is 60mi ok or does the 45mi still apply?
     
  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Not sure why they'd have to. The track speed is set as part of the track settings, ie it's data, so this could be dynamically written at game load dependent on the chosen service (especially in the UK where it's based quite a lot on headcode and service). They could also do similar to a lot of the German routes where you have line speed as the major colour, and the VMAX of the current train in the blue outline. Either would work

    In game you can go 60 without penalty. IRL you'd be fired. It's up to you whether you obey game rules or want to drive realistically
     
  15. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Technically not that simple for Germany since it would need to be based dynamically on gradient to be accurate (if DTG really want it to be true to real life). For example: A freight train may have a Vmax of 115 km/h on the flat which gets lowered to 100 km/h for a downwards gradient. They could just give you the general Vmax either for flat terrain or for the steepest gradient but then that would be inaccurate either for the flat or gradients.
     
  16. Railmaster

    Railmaster Well-Known Member

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    This means that even if I am allowed to drive faster according to the head code, does the low track limit apply? So I'm allowed 60mi, but I still only drive 45mi?

    Only when the track limit e.g. 80mi is, can I drive 60mi again? So track limit takes precedence over headcode? Sure, makes sense...

    But that also means that I can't rely solely on the HUD, but also have to stick to the track limit signs.

    Accordingly, the head code would also have to be taken into account in a HUD implementation. Suppose a route has 100 services, 50 of which are freight with two different headcodes. Then 2x 25 different limits would have to be reset for the freight services alone. I can't imagine it ever being done that way.

    On the other hand, IRL only has one global track limit. How fast you can actually drive on different sections depends on the type of train. Until then, it's realistic. However, it is difficult for a layperson to know or find out the limit for this service.

    The job description often only says: Drive a freight train from A to B. Which wagons you drive, how many, the weight, etc., you only find out in the game. Without background knowledge it is hardly possible to know how fast you can actually go with this train.

    And yes, for me it's about doing it right, as realistically as possible.
     
  17. PBrogaard

    PBrogaard Active Member

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    Railmaster have you tried out the Buchfahrplan Excel file or the beta ebula? Can’t link atm, but there is a very thorough thread here on the Forums.the buchfahrplan as well as the in depth thread about german freight operations (brake settings and pzb modes) is VERY much worth digging into. Has made my trips with some service so much more immersive, challenging and fun.
     
  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Whenever you have two applicable speed limits, the lower one ALWAYS controls.

    Correct.
     
  19. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I was mainly responding to "it would be too difficult to input for each route", but if based on the train (ie the train should know it's VMAX and relevant max from multiple limits)

    Lowest limit always applies IN REAL LIFE, but in game whatever the HuD says you can drive is what you can drive without losing points.

    If you want to drive as they would for real, then yes you should be obeying the signs and signals in game. Remember much of the german signalling systems controls the speed of the train. In the UK it only signals separation between trains (ie you don't HAVE to slow down for a yellow but it would indicate the next signal is red)

    Actually it's different to even that. The headcode shows the maximum for the consist (so the VMAX of a 6xxx would be say 60mph), then you might have track limits for everyone at 50, 40 etc and the train would need to obey those signals. There are also split speed boards and the freight would need to obey the top (lower) speed. There are also special speed boards for things like Multiple Units (MU), HST, tilting trains etc...
    All of these should be placed on the train to acknowledge rather than the track itself really.
     
  20. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    If you want to drive fright trains on DRA in a more realistic fashion, I highly recommend you download a file called "Vmax-Freight133m_Buchfahrplan_v03.11.xlsm" from the discord server of tygerways#2596 (contact him if you need an invitation). As already mentioned above, this file will calculate what PZB settings you need, once you entered the train details, using pull down menues, and it gives you a "Buchfahrplan", with specific speed restrictions according to the composition, settings and weight of your train, depending on route profile.

    Two examples on the Riesa to Dresden route. First train is composed of 20 loaded Habbiins 344s:
    upload_2022-4-25_10-20-31.png
    You can see max speed for the train is 100 (PZB mode will be displayed on another page, as it is not on the Buchfahrplan irl), with a specific speed restriction at km 66.6 to 95 kmh

    Second example is a train of 20 Laaers 560s:
    upload_2022-4-25_10-22-39.png
    You will see the differences...
     
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  21. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    The mentioned current version of the tool actually allows you to pick the service in DRA by specifying the departure time and clicking on the "Apply Preset" button (macros need to be enabled), so you don't need to "build" the formation on your own:

    Vmax2022.png
    You then find the appropriate Buchfahrplan in the corresponding sheet named e.g. "Dre-Rie (VVO)".
     
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  22. Railmaster

    Railmaster Well-Known Member

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    I was wrong about the HUD implementation, because it is implemented (PZB/ACSES), but it is not displayed like that. Because I mostly drive without PZB, I was under the mistaken belief that it wasn't implemented at all.

    The Ebula tool is a great thing that I'm very excited to look into. I've avoided PSB until now because the more I tried to understand it, the more complicated it seemed to me. Of course I should just do it and just learn by doing. With a little practice, the Ebula tool is sure to be a great addition.

    However, there were some things I was just ignorant of or wrong about. But thanks to your help, all my questions are now answered! Big thanks again everyone!
     
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  23. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    ATC and ACSES is implemented on Horseshoe Curve too. The locomotives on the route do not support it, but if you run an ACS-64 on it on Off The Rails you'll see it in action and it works great.

    Paul
     
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  24. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Blimey we now have an official ambassador. When are we joining the United Nations. :o
     
  25. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    When Russia is Destroyed :)
     
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  26. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Thats ironic given that ATC & ACSES doesnt work on Boston correctly.
     
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