So, I am playing Ruhr-Sieg Nord currenlty, the freight services, and something caught my attention as to PZB monitoring. I haven't played all the German routes, but I would assume that it's the same for all them. I've been playing with PZB ever since I learned the system, though I never really gave it much thought aside from simply abiding by its rules. Most of my time is spent operating trains on German railways, only this time, (I guess you could call it "maturity" and need for deeper understanding of the dynamics of train operations. Pat on the back for me!), I've noticed something. As I am operating freight services with heavy haul my PZB is set to U and during 1000hz monitoring the max speed is set to 55(50). Now, here is my question; If I remember correctly, on RSN there are areas on the track where you are going from 70 to 80 to 90 to 100 in quick succession, or thereabout, only to be met by a 70 sign, which forces you to acknowledge this. The 1000hz magnet monitoring switches on and you now have to drop your speed down below 55. Wait for the 1000hz magnet to disengage, override the PZB 55 limit flashing and get back to 70. So, what's the rationale behind this? I am thinking mostly heavy haul freight trains. You aren't stopping anywhere. You are simply reducing your speed from 100km(usually 90km for me) speedlimit to 70km speedlimit. What's the rationale behind having to drop your speed substantially below the indicated speedlimit only to have to bring it back up there. Again, purely for freight trains, because it takes time and energy to get these trains to reduce speed and then getting them back up to speed. I am all ears
Yes, counterintuitive, but correct. Because PZB M and U have lower limits (70 and 55 km/h, respectively), you can find yourself in this strange situation where you must dip below a speed restriction, to then accelerate back up to it. Yep, real trains have to do this too. I’m not sure why the system operates like this. I suggest checking out tygerways on YT, he specializes in realistic freight ops, creating PowerPoint presentations to illustrate his points, and going deeeeep into the real regulations to learn how this is all done. His videos are about two hours long each, and that’s where I’ve learned the majority of how to operate freight trains all over the world (he has covered several countries). If you’re serious about operating trains realistically, watch his tutorials. Here’s one that might have more info on the above topic.
I would suspect it's that way because it was all 1930s technology could handle. They could program the system using pre-computer analog methods to deal with one speed, but couldn't employ a sliding scale
Indusi was introduced in 1934, yes. Of course, it wasn't quite as capable as the version ("PZB90") used today, but the differences are almost entirely within the equipment on the train, not in the way that information is transmitted from the route to the train.
Also the game is giving you the impression to need to run at max speed all the time. Many heavy freight trains in U run at 80 or 90 km/h, so the difference is less. This information is in your timetable, which TSW doesn't inform you about.
In fact, 80 or 90 is most likely your actual top speed if you need to run in PZB U in the first place.
Yeah, I am more interested in the regulatory framework behind this solution and what the decision behind it is because it doesn't make sense for freight trains to be forced to do this because I don't know, laziness in adjusting the PZB system? I guess I'll have to see if tygerways is covering the regulative side of this. I am well aware of his content as I've already been watching quite a few of his videos!
Yeah, I did assume that as I personally run 10km below the speed limit of the "higher end" speed limits to ensure safe breaking when PZB is engaged.
There is nothing you can easily adjust really, it's one of few weaknesses of PZB design. Trackside, you really want to have 1000 Hz monitoring at speeds <= 70 km/h, because it's simply dangerous to overlook it and run into it at high speed. You could do conditional magnet (as is usual for 80 and 90 km/h), but that's a lot of money in investment and massively increased maintenance for the few trains that run under U mode, as nobody else is affected. Trainside, you simply receive 1000 Hz impulse, no other context, that's how PZB is designed. It does not have any way to distinguish whether it was from "expect stop" signal or something less dangerous, so all precautions have to be taken for the worst case possible. To get into U mode, you need to be very heavy and weak braking, which is not that common combination, and these properties on their own dictate that it will be rather slow moving train. It's unlikely to be allowed more than 80 km/h, easily even lower. As a driver you can see the upcoming speed restriction in your timetable, so you are prepared for it in advance, and even if you forgot and started braking at the advance speedboard, you have 38 seconds to lower your speed by 20-30 km/h at most, that's chill. In addition, it's usually some raw commodity trains (grain, coal, ore, oil..) that are not very urgent (vs containers having to catch a ship, time-sensitive mail..). Going 50 km/h instead of 70 km/h for a minute or two is annoying in the simulator where the whole service takes 30 minutes, but it doesn't really cost you anything significant in reality. With these heavy trains, you will save/lose much more time overall just by how good are your skills for stopping and getting up to speed at other places.
Thanks noir for this indepth answer! I think the above section I quoted from your answer really says it all. Regarding the timetable, at least for locos such as the BR185, I would assume this is something that should normally be displayed on the right-side screen but is not modeled in TSW? Or at least not in TSW2...
Correct. And because the development resources were redirected from working ingame timetables into toddler DLCs, my timetables will have to do, for the time being.
I have now bookmarked that thread! Amazing! Edit: The only downside for me is that I am on PS5! Still, am reading into it to understand how this actually works in real life. Thank you!
Freight trains almost never run at either line speed or the PZB max, very often they don't run at wagon Vmax (usually 100) either aside from intermodals and very light freights. noir has made an excellent spreadsheet tool which allows you to calculate your brake setup and maximum speed in the same manner a RL Fahrplan does it, here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nkUl7kI-k3EOyEfFVhL3lQlEKw7fJ_ytps16HBLDpjY/edit?usp=sharing You'll note after using it for any moderately heavy train that you max permitted is probably below 100, even if your PZB mode is M. Moreover, there is also a regulation which holds freight trains below line speed, generally. IIRC, it's line speed up to 70, then 10 km/h under line speed up to 100, but I may be misremembering the details.
I do seem to remember this statement in a thread quite some time ago. I am pretty certain that I have asked for a reference as well and never got a reply (cant find the thread either). I, for one, have never heard about this before (or after)...
I have not seen any reference to freight, but on a video by Matt P on PZB/LZB it was stated in a comment on the video that it is mandatory in Germany to drive no faster than 5 kph below ruling limit.
I believe this is in reference to PZB limits, rather than line speeds. And I don’t think it’s a rule, rather a best practice. When PZB demands you to stay below 45 (for example), you will limit yourself to 40. What is a rule, however, the max supervised speed in mode „O“ (just to name an example) would actually be 165kph, however, you are limited to 160kph max speed by regulation…
You are correct that I referred to PZB limits - which is why I said 'ruling limit'. I have no personal knowledge, but the commenter on Matt's video, when Matt said 'best practice', insisted that it is mandated. And of course, as mentioned elsewhere, on ICE units afb changes in 10kph steps - no idea whether that is true IRL
It's a "best practice" which amounts to a rule- it's how all drivers are trained - to allow for speedometer error up to +/- 5 km/h
One of the best u-tube sources for info on german safety systems is Tygerways - the following is a sample
Yeah, I am watching his videos for the specific routes he is covering and additional safety videos. This particular question was more about why heavy hauling freight trains have exactly the same penalty on the pzb as all others due to their weight. I guess I got the replies I was looking for from knowledgeable community members.
Hello noir , I have been wondering how these 'conditional magnets' are working? Is it some extra signal on those magnets or purely based on the speed you're going?
No. The train will always recognise a PZB influence, at any speed. They work exactly like an overspeed check, just using a 1000 Hz magnet instead of a 2000 Hz one.
It uses the fact that speed is a function of distance. So you will have three magnets in rapid succession: activation, check and reset magnet. Activation magnet starts a timer that deactivates the check magnet after certain time that corresponds to a speed you want to check (and reset magnet returns the trap into the initial state). If you have Lf 6 "Expect 80 km/h", you will be checking for 95 km/h, and you know that it takes for example 1 second to go between the activation and check magnet at speed of 95 km/h. So you set the timer to that time, if the train gets to the check magnet faster than in 1 second, they were going faster than 95 km/h and the check magnet is still active. If the train took more than 1 second to get there, it was going slower than 95 km/h and the magnet activation already expired, so it will no longer be active.
A 1000Hz magnet can also be linked to a GPA and be speed dependent. EDIT: same as explained by noir , I was simply too slow...
