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German Wagon Weights (help/input Appreciated)

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by cwf.green, Jul 13, 2021.

  1. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    For the last week or so I have been trying to determine what realistic loaded weights would be for the German freight wagons.

    Reading the print on the sides of the wagon gives you the empty weight and the load limit. However, even with this knowledge you do not know what a typical loaded weight would be, only the max weight. For this reason I have been trying to track down information on what loaded typical weights for each wagon would be, but it is quite tricky.

    I'll start with the "easier" wagons first:

    1. Shimmns-t 708 and Shimmns-ttu 722 (Steel coil covered wagons). From my understanding these would typically have loaded weights that equal their max weights since the density of steel coils mean that you can never fill a wagon and still be below the axle load limit. So with this assumption in mind I think it is reasonable that these should always be around 90 tonnes when in loaded config.


    2. Roos-t 645 timber transport wagon. With the help of the website dybas.de I found that this wagon has a load volume of 95 m^3. The print gives an empty weight of 25.2 tonnes and a structural load limit of 58.5 tonnes.

    Interestingly the real world wagons these were based on must've been used in Sweden because you can still see the D-axle load cargo weights for "GC" which is the freight company Green Cargo. From my understanding these were phased out in Sweden due to their low cargo capacity (virtually all Railroads in Sweden can handle 22.5 t in axle load and many are being upgraded for 25 t so the Roos-t max axle load of 20.9t is "wasteful" I guess).

    Anyways, I did some research on the density of raw/green pine wood and the most common number was 800 kg/m^3. With this density and a packing factor of about 80% (I calculated this with an assumed log diameter of 20 cm) the cargo weight would be 60.8 tonnes which means that the wagon is weight limited and thus a loaded weight can be assumed as the max weight of 83.7 tonnes.


    3. The Falns 183 coal hoppers have a load volume of 85 m^3 and some googling gave me a density for lignite (aka braunkohle, the most common coal type in Germany) of around 1.3 x density of water (called specific gravity). This means again that the wagon is weight limited (85 m^3 * 1300 kg/m^3 = 110.5 tonnes) so a typical loaded gross weight will be the wagons max weight.


    4. The Zacns tank wagon. This one is a bit interesting, and to me the most surprising. The UN-number on the side of the wagon (orange colored plate with one 4-digit number and a 2-digit number) is 1863 which I found out was the code for Jet fuel/Kerosene. The Jet fuel used in Europe is called Jet A-1 and has an average density at STP (standard temperature and pressure), according to Wikipedia, of 800 kg/m^3.

    Now the tank wagon in TSW2 is one of the smaller variants of this wagon with a load volume of 62100 liters. This means that a fully loaded (by volume) tank wagon has a cargo weight of 49.7 tonnes. Since the empty weight is 22.6 tonnes the gross weight is then 72.3 tonnes! This is nearly 18 tonnes lower than the in-game weight ;)

    Now I'm done with the "easy" wagons. By easy I mean that information was available, I might still have made a mistake so I appreciate any input.

    5. The Habbiins 344 covered van. This wagon is, according to dybas, able to carry 63 EUR-pallets. But what is the average weight of a loaded pallet? And how many loaded pallets does a loaded wagon carry on average? This is not easy to answer.

    I have found some conflicting answers to this question. I found a study for road freight carrying pallets that gave the average "Load factor" (average cargo load divided by cargo capacity in terms of weight) as 56-57%. The Habbiins 344 has a cargo capacity of 63 tonnes and an empty weight of 27 tonnes so if the data for road freight was applicable to rail freight the average loaded gross weight would be about
    62-63 tonnes.

    However, I have heard from Swedish train drivers that these types of wagons usually are either fully empty or fully loaded and additionally that trains of these types of wagons are notorious for their crappy brake performance because the braked weight is quite low and the wagons are usually (again) fully loaded.

    Sweden is not Germany though, so I don't know how much this data point can be applied to German freight wagons of this type. It would be interesting to hear from any train drivers on this forum or maybe (if there are any lol) people working in logistics?

    6. The last wagon I will mention is the Sggmrss 6-axle twin container wagon. It carries two 40-foot (I think) high-cube containers (which have tare weights of 3.9 tonnes and max gross weights of 30.8 tonnes).

    Here I'm completely in the dark. One approach to determine a reasonable typical loaded weight for wagons of this type and configuration is to determine the average weight of these types of containers, then multiply by two and add the empty weight. Here data from road freight should be enough since containers on container trains usually end up on trucks at some point during their journey. But I have not really found any good data for this either.

    A Swedish train driver I spoke with mentioned 75-80 tonnes for a loaded 6-axle unit but that was basically after I forced him to guess lol, so I'm not too satisfied with that answer. A gross weight of 75-80 tonnes is basically slightly less than the mid point between empty and loaded ( (29.5 + 134.5)/2).

    Anyone have any better ideas here?
     
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  2. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    How to load a heavy load of men on a wagon. Tracks are categorized into load classes. The weight per axle of the car chassis is calculated. The picture shows the cost weight table. Line S informs about the weight of loads in tons. Category A line 43.5 tons, up to the maximum load capacity of the car, category D line 69.5 t This is the maximum load capacity of the car. With this loaded car we can drive at a maximum speed of 100 km / h. The weight of 20420 kg is the weight of the empty car. With an empty car, a maximum of 120 km / h can be driven. I use a compiler so hopefully it will be understandable.

    IMG_20210525_062056.jpg
     
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  3. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Hi Richard,

    I already have these numbers since they are visible in the simulator :) What I am interested in is *how* loaded the real wagon is usually, or what a good number to choose for the TSW2 wagon to weigh when loaded.

    For example: Sggmrss, is 70t better than 80t, or 90t etc?

    Maybe there are some truck drivers on the forum that handle containers?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  4. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    Anything can be loaded in the container. The only thing that can be determined is the weight of the empty container. The only value we can use is that we will assume that the wagon is loaded to its maximum capacity.
     
  5. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Wow, what a comprehensive study! Not much to add to points 1 to 3.

    4) Small correction, the Zacns has a total volume of 95m3, hence, you could fill it with 76t of Jet A-1. Irl it is weight limited to 65,7t max payload. I quickly checked a heavy run on MSB, with 2334t weight and 25 waggons, hence each car weighs around 90t. Only considering max volume and also max axle weight, this would be realistic, but with limitations each car would be overloaded by roughly 10t.

    5) The Habbiins 344 where mainly bought to carry paper rolls and similar heavy stuff around. I second the comments you got, they are either completely full or empty. Paper is quite heavy and you will find them very often weight limited. If they are used for their original purpose, you could estimate at 80-90% of max weight. Nevertheless, they are used for all sorts of stuff. The other day I have seen one full of hey. Definitely not weight limited, but volume. For the break performance, not sure what the break weight is, now, but probably just below 60t, so, fully loaded around 65BRH?! Pretty average, I would say. Not heared too much complaining about it. Then again, the trains in Germany are usually not so long, so you can drive them in P and dont need to subtract of break percentage;-)

    6) really a tough one. I would have nothing rally to add to your estimation. The are very often not full, as often one container = one customer. A friend of mine drives those out of HH on a regular basis. Ill ask him if he can give some guidance...
     
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  6. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the kind words :) Great reply!

    4) This is what I thought as well, but then I looked at the model in the game. Firstly, it looks like it is a GATX wagon but they scrambled the letters (for copyright reasons I guess), it's called NL-DTGX in the game lol. So I checked the GATX website. The wagon in the game has the volume printed on it's side as "62,100 l" and not only this but the length over buffers is 15.11 m. If you look in the link the only wagon that has this length is the one with volume 62 m^3. So I think DTG intended it as a smaller tank wagon, which is a quite rare one I guess (?).

    5) Yes! The driver I spoke with said that paper rolls was a common cargo for this wagon. Do you happen to know how large the rolls are that can be carried on EUR-pallets (if that is what they are carried on in the wagon)? Knowing the length and diameter one can estimate the weight.

    If not, do you think just setting the loaded weight to 90t is okay in terms of realism (so it simulates a "paper" wagon)?

    Also, about the low brake effort. In Sweden the BrH requirements are much higher. For example, if the train is 500m and is driven on a route with 1000m pre-signal distance and no more than 1% grade then if the BrH is 65 the train can only travel at 70 km/h! If you want the train to travel at 100 km/h you would need 80 BrH, so quite a bit more harsh rules than is common in Germany.

    In the game the braked weight is automatic up to 58t so if the wagon is 90t then the BrH is only 64. I'm actually not sure why BrH are usually higher in Sweden (and require higher) since the signal distance is usually the same (1000m) but I suspect it is due to the in-cab signalling system ATC that is basically like a mix between PZB and LZB (balise based cab signaling) which on newer routes functions similarly to LZB (10km "look ahead") but on older routes might only activate 1000m before a red signal (depending on speed).

    6) That would be really interesting to hear about. :D
     
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  7. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    4) interesting observation. Never x-checked the details on the side, only checked that it actually said Zacns and it looked fairly familiar and long enough. No access until at least Thursday to TSW.
    EDIT: looking at pictures, it may actually be the smaller variant. Will check once Im back…

    5) paper rolls are commonly wedged into place. You do see them upright as well, however, I have never seen them on a palette. If they are on palettes, I would assume it will get close to the max 2t allowed, but I have no idea… I think with 90t you are getting close to what you would find in the wild as well.

    Interesting to hear about the restrictions in Sweden. Always thought the German system is already quite conservative, but the margins on your end seem a lot more restrictive. Could it be weather related? I would assume a harsher environment then in our, milder climate. In Germany a driver will always have to adapt his max speed to the environment he is driving in. Perhaps your system takes the responsibility off the driver?! Just speculation…
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  8. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    As a freight driver in italy (where we have the same german wagons or similar) the number that you can see on side tells you the different cargo class and the load limit for each class. Now let's go with the easy one. Empty is empty so we are ok. With a wagon that has a b c d classes, it's used to load the wagon at C classes weight or a bit more. And is used to set the on the axle if you have a C class or in the middle of the wagon if you have a A class. Now this is a general rule. But it changes if we have specific cargo wagons. For exemple Coal wagons. At this one you normaly see just A and B class (rarelly the C too) because this wegons are loaded always with the same cargo, in the same position (exemple steel coil) and with the same weight. So you normally can see them at empty or full charge. Same thing with the S type wagons (intermodal) they are built directly to travel (normally) up to 120kmh with or without container on it, and when you see just 1 container on a couple of S-type wagons, nothing change to the distribution of the weigh. And in containers you can find everything, from football balls to car engines. However common cargo wagons are loaded up to 70-80% and specific cargo wagons 90-95%. Tankers makes a different category because you can have different condiction with the same cargo. The answer is easy, pressure and heat. So you need to check every situation. But normally they are always loaded up too ~97% + tollerance of the fluid. I know it seems hard but for this reason when a wagon is under development they set the classes to help load sequences. Nothing change to the train, just weight and brake mass. Also there is the tollerance, if you run at 120kmh with loaded covered vans the wagon still go without problem but FOR SURE it's calculated that 100kmh is a good speed for emergency situations.
     
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  9. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Do you think 72.3 tonnes (gross weight) is too much for a chubby little tank wagon loaded with kerosene, like the Zacns (62,100 liters) in TSW2?
     
  10. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    The max wagon weight is ~90t. When you say 72.3t of jet a1 you mean the weight at 1 bar pressure. Keep in mind that a lot of gas and fuel can be loaded under an hight pressure to reduce they volume. And as temperature is the same (in theory), a smaller volume means that you can load more of it. And this kind of wagon can resist up to 3 bar of pressure. The game just simulate le weight of the wagon and it is correct.
     
  11. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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  12. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Kerosene is a liquid so it is nearly incompressible.

    I checked the isothermal compressibility (how much the volume of the liquid is changed when pressure is changed, at constant temperature) and it is on the order of 10^-3. That means that at 3 bar the density (inversely proportional to volume) will have increased by maybe 0.3 percent, so basically negligible difference.

    The highest number for Jet A-1 density I found was 0.86 tonne/m^3 so at most I think the fully loaded wagon (at 3 bar) would weigh around 76 tonnes. Still much lower than 90 tonnes.
     
  13. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Yes, cwf.green , you are right, it is the 15m variant of the Zacns, which was modelled (or 62,1m^3). Model is correct, writing is correct, I was somehow tricked in always believing the larger one was modelled.

    As you state, those liquids are basically non compressible, hence, with Jet A1 you will never achieve the 90t. But those cars are developed for all sorts of chemical transports. In fact, they are very commonly used to carry hydrochloric acid, which always has a density higher the 1,05g/cm^3. Therfore the 90t limit does make sense, only, not for kerosin... So, when ever you see UN1789, the train is heavy;)
     
  14. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    With the jet a1 probably not, but as OpenMinded said, this weagon are build to charege other fluid with much weight. Probably the truth in this case can be during the development state of the wagon in the game. Maybe copyright problems, maybe just how the algorytm works. Loaded train -> max weight, empty train -> tare wagons weight. In the game that kind of service just says "petroleum", so probably we should check the density of the petrol and the orange number is just for decoration. The only thing that can explain it is, if with the jet a1, during the load process, other subsance or gas are added for transport conservation. This process is very common in some substance like milk for exemple
     
  15. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it depends on what is most desirable. If the wagon is supposed to be simulated as the UN-number in the game (Kerosene) then imho 72-73 tonnes should be the gross weight.

    If some other substance is supposed to be the "real" freight, like hydrochloric acid like OpenMinded mentioned, and the UN-number is decoration like you said, then maybe 85-86 tonnes (97% volume like you mentioned) should be the real gross weight.

    I know that these types of wagons (maybe not in Germany though) can carry powder as well, like ammonium-nitrate. If this is the intended simulation then even higher gross weight (~90t) can be used since ammonium-nitrate density is 1.7 kg/m^3.

    So it comes down to what DTG intend to portray and players like to drive. Kerosene: moderate deceleration (BrH 80), hydrochloric acid/ammonium nitrate: low deceleration (BrH 64-68).

    For comparison, using the weights I mentioned above we have the following BrH (Empty/Loaded)

    Habiins 344: 100/64
    Falns 183: 116/65
    Shimmns-u 708: 129/66 (wheel flats? lol)
    Shimmns-ttu 722: 114/57
    Roos-t: 111/64
    Laaers 560: 100/100
    Sggmrss: 100/100

    So you can see that all the BrH are either high or low, nothing intermediate, so maybe it could be interesting with an intermediate BrH for the Zacns (i.e. 72-73t) but that is just personal taste at the end of the day.

    EDIT: Of course you can achieve almost any BrH you want by mixing empty and loaded wagons.
     
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  16. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    While we're at this: is it true for DB that, if the train or at least the lead wagon is carrying flammable cargo, the loco uses the front rather than the rear pantograph to reduce sparking risk?
     
  17. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Yes! This is actually standard procedure for all sensible cargo or when open wagons are directly behind the loco. Two reasons for this:

    - in case the Panto is being ripped off, it does not damage the cargo (or risk is minimized)

    - sparks coming of the panto does not damage the cargo.

    I would actually be surprised if this would not be the case everywhere in Europe / World?!
     
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  18. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what OpenMinded said. Front pantograph up whenever there is easily damaged (new cars for example) or dangerous (gas or other flammable stuff) cargo behind the loco or when running with two locos (or a cab car is behind the loco to avoid sparks etc. damaging the front window). In case of double-heading always us the pantos furthest away from another (to ease the pressure on the overhead catenary) except when hauling easily damaged or dangerous cargo, then both locos us the front panto.
     
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  19. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Pantos and its rules, complicated subject of its own. It’s off topic but if anybody is interested, just give me a reason to talk about it:cool:

    EDIT: no need for me to talk about it. Found the page I had in mind. It’s in German but should be translatable through your browser:
    http://www.tf-ausbildung.de/BahnInfo/saeinstellungen.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
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  20. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I did some research and found out that there is a chemical plant located near the railway between Riesa and Dresden called Wacker Chemie AG.
    In Nünchritz there is quite a large industrial railyard with tracks connected to the main line.

    I wasn't able to find out exactly what kind of liquids or powders are transported from the chemical plant (silicone sealant?). Does anyone have any deeper insight?
     
  21. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Wacker in Nünchritz is well connected by Train, mainly to the harbours in northern Germany.

    They do get raw material (as far as I know, mainly Methanol) delivered by train from there. I dont know how many trains there are, but I know that they have dedicated trains doing this tour all the time in a kind of shuttle roster.

    The silicone, destined overseas, leaves Nünchritz also by Train. usually in containers, which are then loaded straight onto ships. If I remember well, its about one train a day during the week.

    These info's may be outdated, its from about 5-10 years ago.
     
  22. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Seems like the tank wagons would weigh about the same as the number I mentioned above then, since methanol has similar density as kerosene (about 800 kg/m^3). Unless there are some other materials transported to or from the plant in tank containers?
     
  23. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    There probably are, however, not in these kind of quantities. You will see whole trains with Methanol, other stuff will only be separate wagons. And I am not so certain this is all coming by train. They have huge amounts they are bringing in and out by lorry.
     
  24. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    For illustration. Container for transport of liquid cargo. I would like them in TSW.

    IMG_20200625_184507.jpg
     
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  25. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Active Member

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    Most of it is actually stowed in normal containers. These liquid overseas container are very rare, also at Riesa.
     

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