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Glasgow Cathcart Circle - First Impressions

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, May 28, 2021.

  1. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    Possibility of .ini tweaks by Matt, too?
     
  2. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't use .ini tweaks.
     
  3. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I think he was playing on default settings but PC and clear weather will make things look significantly better.

    Anyone wanting to know what the route will really look like, if you have a PC/decent hardware, watch the first stream, not this one. It wasn't a good representation of the route.
     
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  4. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Cathcart Circle Line - First Impressions - Oh Holy Clansman..... Lead Us Into The Light:

    - a truly stunning build-out of scenery, including Glasgow Central and city residential buildings;
    - love the mini network concept, four or five end to end routes in one package;
    - reasonably smooth on PS4 (but some infrequent tile load stutters), as demonstrated tonight;
    - fabulous train, great audio, great features (mostly), even an opening front door;
    - loving the new TPWS features, and the simulation features.... loving the progress that is being made.

    But.....

    - No point light sources on the front of the train. This totally kills the immersion (for me), for all daylight settings except for noon/summer/sun. This is especially bad on a route that has catenary, signal gantry ladders and tunnel walls, where you expect to see a splash of light as you progress in darker conditions - which is my favourite time to run. In contrast, one of the earliest TSW routes, Rapid Transit, as part of "TSW", before TSW 2020, before TSW 2.... that route.... that route had trains that had functional lights on the front... Total pleasure to use.

    But..... in Cathcart Circle Line....... the track stop markers, the shiny glowing green/yellow/red panels on the track at station stops - they are light sources... planar light sources that cast light onto the train body that is reflected back - and in normal driving you don't even see this light show, you just pay the performance penalty for these ultra expensive light sources. But you get no lights on the front of the train, where you actually need them.... ;-O

    I cannot over-state just how brilliant Cathcart Circle Line is - it is truly fantastic, in the round....... but for me personally, it doesn't work without a light source on the front of the train. Not at full price. I am not doing another NTP. Not at this time. Maybe later, when it is at 70% discount, but not right now.

    But I would buy the Cathcart Circle Line DLC immediately if they put a light on the front of the train. Let us know if you can do this.

    So my money is now going on Assetto Corsa Competizione DLCs that have just come on sale, where I can drive cars with lights on the front, in an immersive environment, all through the night. And I have recently bought a large number of TS2012 DLCs, including about twenty locos..... and they all have lights on the front of the train.... even the ones made in 2009.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
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  5. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I had a feeling you'd post something like that.

    You could just about see it ah Matt was flickering the headlight on and off outside, it's just that the headlight's incredibly weak in the game.
     
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  6. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, they’ve definitely ruined the ballast somehow. Definitely better in last weeks stream.
     
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  7. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    The colorful stop marker thingies are not light sources. They're just decals.
     
  8. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-6-3_22-27-8.png
    upload_2021-6-3_22-27-29.png
    You may need to fiddle with contrast/brightness but there is a difference, albeit a small one. When Matt got up out of the seat I think you could also see some light reflecting off the 40 speed board.
     
  9. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Its due to the cloudy weather setting and low console graphics vs clear weather and PC. Nothing has changed.
     
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  10. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Really - how are they able to get light to bounce off the train body and chassis... even when ambient light is nearly zero...? I'd hope that they are not llght sources (maybe you are right), but every time I look at them, they really look like lights sources to me.
     
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  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    My short review, which is a review based on a preview (a really good preview, BTW.... and well done to Matt and Nat and the cat...)... my review of CCL (bearing in mind that I will not be actually playing it for a very long time) is a glowing review. Seriously - the CCL DLC looks absolutely fabulous, and if you don't mind clawing your way through the darkness without any light - it's basically perfect.

    I am being serious - a totally fantastic DLC - but it's just not for me. If the train had a working light on the front, then it would be perfect for me. Other people might not be bothered about having no light on the front - and to those people, I would thoroughly recommend purchasing the DLC. No brainer.

    Hopefully London/Brighton will feature trains with lights on the front. Time will tell.
     
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  12. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    It's because they're these weird "3D decals". I don't know what they're properly called, but basically they're decals that can form on 3D surfaces. So what you're seeing is not their reflection, but the decals themselves showing up on the train.

    You can see them on many parts of routes, like on certain routes there are graffities on walls near the tracks and sometimes those graffiti decals will also show up on your train's sides as you drive past them. Or I remember in SPG there were some dirt decals on the ground that would end up showing on your train's bogeys as you drove over them.

    I don't know exactly how they work, but I can assure you, they are not light sources. They're probably pretty performance friendly, as I suppose it's a standard technique in modern graphics softwares.
     
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  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Oh okay - fair enough. Basically "clingy" decals that wrap themselves around whatever is there, even if it is a new object that comes into contact with the original position..... ah yeah, okay - that explains why the graffitti would sometimes jump off the wall and enter the cabs of some trains (on Peninsular Corridor...?).... okay - in that case - yeah - they'll not be performance drags (might actually save performance.... because they are coating some complex surfaces with a uniform surface.... ). I really do hate them.

    Either way - I would still expect to see a light source on the front of the train.

    314 headlight.jpg

    Notice how, in the picture above, that the headlight is way more powerful than all of the other lights in the scene, and those lights are lighting the whole station area. Even against that background, the track is brighter with the 314 headlight on...... so it should reflect off nearby hyper-reflective vertical surfaces.

    It's okay - they made a dead DLC for me this time. Hopefully some of the future DLCs will include working lights.
     
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  14. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully, now that PC players have seen what the game is like on PS4 they will be more grateful for the better version they get for the same money and stop complaining that consoles are holding them back :D You’ve never had it so good, as they used to say. Bask in the glory of your high resolution textures, and all controls being clickable with your mouses, and your external zoom, and better draw distances on everything, while we watch you get your Steam sales and pre-order discounts and cry ourselves to sleep at 17 to 34 fps :(
     
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  15. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    If the headlight is the biggest problem, this DLC has, then it’s a very well done piece of DLC! I think from past comments, you were just looking for an excuse not to buy it.

    The headlight on the 314 is genuinely nothing spectacular, I will agree, it is slightly dim in the game, but not on the scale you’re talking about.

    I would also that included photo is misleading, because of the exposure length.
     
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  16. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    stujoy don't forget those on PC also have access to "unofficial mods" and tweaks to their graphics systems that we on consoles can't do.
     
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  17. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Matt want fixed the Headlights or? :D
     
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  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep - I absolutely agree - the Cathcart DLC is generally fabulous, in the round. And if you like to run during the day, and look at the fabulous scenery in daylight, then it's a real corker - really superb. An absolute must buy, in those circumstances. I strongly recommend it to anyone that never runs trains after 5.00pm.

    But if you like running in the dark, with immersion, then the lack of a front light is a bit "TSW 1721"..... Thankfully, there are plenty of other routes where they have implemented light sources. I am loving the 182 on Rapid Transit. I love the satisfaction that you get when you switch the headlights on, and the beam reflects back. I love the way that the internal blue ceiling lights on the Dostos emit light from a train that is passing you in MSB... and you see the blue flicker on the walls and desk of your own cab.... I love that stuff. It binds you into an immersive experience....... But....... it's not a feature in Cathcart, and that's fair enough.... Not for me - but it might well be superb for many other people, who are not interested in that kind of immersion.

    Matt was right, in the first stream, when he said that night runs on Cathcart don't look very good in a stream. It looked absolutely horrific to me. Hopefully they won't do that again, unless it is with a train that has lights on the front.

    As a whole, TSW is fantastic. But for me, Cathcart doesn't cut it - it doesn't have what I want. South London Network in TS2012 has what I want - and I am very pleased for that. And I can sort myself out with Cathcart Circle runs in TS2012, with working lights. Not a problem. I have the WCML routes.

    So, I am very happy to move on now, and I await the next TSW DLC where they implement lights on the front of trains. I guess that will be the next German route then (although I am fairly sure that the Cane Creek traction will both have working lights - those things normally look Christmas trees...).... ;-)
     
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  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Certainly not as big a deal as on Clinchfield, where 75% of the services are in pitch-black dark and the headlight produces less illumination than a cigarette lighter.
     
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  20. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    As a PC player myself, I never thought that consoles were holding back TSW graphically. And with the next gen consoles that will soon become the norm in the next 3-5 years, I'm confident TSW on PC will continue to have the best possible graphics with next gen consoles not too far behind. I do think however that DTG's policy of complete platform equity is holding back TSW with the lack of you know what that starts with an E, which in my opinion is holding back potential third party development in the game.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
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  21. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'd like to buy it at full price...and I'm playing on ps4. Sure, it doesn't look like it does on PC but I think it looks amazing and I'm going to enjoy it just the same. I place a lot of importance on the sounds and today I heard them fantastically well, plus they have increased the volume of the rail sounds in the mix, this makes it very immersive for me. The horn also sounds very good, with reverb.
    The route is very interesting and feels well constructed, with lots of stations. Multiple types of services, 6 scenarios. The train is beautiful with that livery and very detailed. TPWS. A new country and a new railway company in TSW.
    Yes, as has already been said around here it would lack more light intensity so you can see better when driving at night. I don't understand why this darkness, in SEHS for example there is better lighting.
    Anyway, before I buy it I will check opinions and if it comes out with many bugs or many broken things (as unfortunately is usual), I will wait for an offer.
     
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  22. Ben_Broomfield

    Ben_Broomfield Active Member

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    Enjoyed this evenings stream again of the route, even if it was held back by the (personally) dismal graphics on Consoles which I felt doesn’t do the route any justice.

    I think the highlight of the stream for me has to be the guards panel with the local door operation etc. Would love to see this implemented into coaching stock & applicable units for the future.

    Again noticed a few signal ‘issues’ although a lot seems to have been fixed which is great! Still think there should be a invisible go-via marker (or similar) instead of a ‘stop instruction’ in a few places, where you approach a red, with the marker triggering the aspect to step-up.

    Shame about the non-inclusion of 6-car formations in the timetable, although doesn’t bother me being not that familiar with ScotRails operation.

    Personally, still very happy with what I’m seeing. Will definitely be pre-ordering.
     
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  23. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and compare that with the SPG locos, in a similar landscape, which seem to illuminate the track ahead. Running up the Fremont branch, I could barely pick out the road ahead and in tunnels, there was almost complete darkness. American locos generally have full beam headlights day and night, not to mention flashing ditch lights when necessary. I also find UK routes often difficult to navigate at night, especially when there's no ambient light source. Suburban Glasgow should have plenty of light sources.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
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  24. L89

    L89 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it was held back by the console 'dismal' graphics. It was good to have a PS4 stream over the usual PC and Xbox streams.

    The rescue scenario will be interesting (coupling), the planters are cute, train sounds good and working guards panel is a nice addition. I hope the route does well and we see more trains made for it.
     
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  25. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’ll trust you on that. I normally play in sunny weather :)
     
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  26. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I won’t be buying Cathcart Circle on release as I’m only on Mass Effect 2 in the Mass Effect Legendary Edition saga, but I will definitely be buying it. I was very impressed with the route, the train and the scenario we saw. This really does have the makings of being an ECW equal. I didn’t notice any glaringly obvious bugs or anything that put me off, although I did notice the interior cab sound (with windows open) was lower than the outside view sounds. Not a deal breaker though as the sounds were very good. I’ll reserve full judgement until I finally play the route, but DTG could be on to a winner here after some recent disappointments.
     
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  27. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    Good stream, I like the way Nat keeps an eye on all the questions and tries to answer as many as poss. A lot got covered.
    Someone asked about signalling and approach control - it's not on this route as per reality (slow speed route already), Matt replied - good to know. Hopefully it will be in L2B as I'm sure it will exist on that route.
    I see we now have trackworkers dotted around the route, another good addition.
    Looking forward to Cathcart, seems v playable.
     
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  28. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I nearly jumped out my seat when I saw that, really great and simple thing to do to add a bit of authenticity.
     
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  29. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    That was just in a scenario, though, wasn't it, not in timetable/service mode? We've had line-side workers before in scenarios on other routes--Sand Patch Grade and Peninsula Corridor spring to mind.
     
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  30. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    East Coastway too.
     
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  31. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I think last nights stream has convinced me to pre order. It does look and sound very nice and has a bit of variety with reasonably short services. Which aside from it not being German, suits me very well.

    For me I wasn’t bothered that it was on console, it’s good that everyone gets a chance to see it on their platform.

    As someone mentioned above, Natalie did a great job with the questions. I don’t ever remember seeing so many things answered in a stream before. I hope this is a sign of how it will go in the future.
     
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  32. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Ah was it? I was skipping through as those streams do go on, I had assumed it was a depot service run. Well, I suppose it would start to look odd if that guy was standing there 24 hrs a day!
     
  33. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that was an scenario. DTG is working on having that kind of things (being able to "pop" people doing things randomly on services) for Rush Hour.
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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  35. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think that we have to accept that we are in the minority of people that like to get immersion from the use of light. I have to admit, it is an area that I am particuarly interested in (I am a fanatic about light, and I respond to it appreciatively when it is done well, like back in the good old days when they built routes like RT and MSB)......but it won't be the same for many people. For many people, good use of lighting won't matter at all.

    I had feared that they would "do the NTP tunnels" on Bakerloo, but they decided in the end to allow the tube trains to have light emitting from the front, which was a considerable relief. And of course, tube trains have lights that are nowhere near as powerful as British mainline trains.... so it is puzzling to see glow textures slapped onto the front of the Class 314; and I guess that the Class 313 will get the same treatment for ECW.

    Quite a lot of people don't care much about audio either, so maybe it would also be justifiable to make vicious shortcuts there, in future, if it makes the game easier and quicker to produce and optimise. Do we really need track and running sounds, for example...? If the rest of the route looks great (even without good lighting), why would we need any immersive depth from the audio..? And maybe they should scale back the simulation of physics, so that they don't have to go through the bother of finding data, etc..... the trains could just have a "go" setting and a "stop" setting. Maybe that's the future of train simulation...?

    Continuously pushing forwards, and making things better and better is, of course, a challenge. But I think it is worth doing that - it is worth the effort. But when you do things like remove the lighting from the front of trains.... then you are going backwards... in the dark. And once you are on that slippery slope..... there's no guessing where you will end up.... because you won't be able to see where you are going....

    Immersion is what makes the difference between a game that you play for two hours until the novelty wears off.... and a game where you feel connected to the simulation every time you run it, and where you can endlessly experiment and play, like with the HRR route, and the range of German rolling stock..... that all have working lights.

    I do hope that the Class 314 is gifted with the power of light at some point, because I really would like to buy and play the Cathcart route - it was right up there as a priority purchase for me. I was hoping that Cathcart would be a route that I could actively try to learn, go completely HUDless, and navigate according to what I can see in front of me (including speed limit signs), including in the dark. But this depth of experience has been stripped away from this DLC. There is a reason why I want to see lights on the front of trains - it's because I want to experience TSW as a simulator, in some considerable depth. But not everyone wants or expects that, and that is fair enough. And anyway I can get what I want from TS2012, which is looking again to be simulator to go for, and to invest in.

    I can now wait to play Cathcart on TSW. Even if they do not implement lights, I will eventually buy it, but without the immersion that light brings...... well then... Cathcart will have a very limited playability life-span for me... and consequently, I wouldn't want to buy it until I see it float well under £10, or maybe I will pick up a key for about £5 at some point. I was expecting to dedicate quite a lot of time to Cathcart (including full route learning), so if it had working lights then I would have bought it twice at £25, for both PC and PS4.

    I really hate it when other people say this.... but maybe TSW really is for the more casual player after all, and maybe it always will be. I had thought, with the DB BR 101, that TSW was becoming a fully-blooded simulator.... but... no... I was wrong.

    TSW is just a game. ;-(
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Headlights in trains for this game has gotten some valid criticism as alot of trains headlights are not as bright compared to reality. Heck, even the 1972 tube stock headlights are too dim compared to reality. You would think they would get headlights right especially for players who do night time services.
     
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  37. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    Looks pretty good. And I guess now they have modelled Glasgow station they might use it for other routes like brighton station.
     
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  38. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    One version was for PC other is the console version
     
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  39. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Eh?
     
  40. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    that is what they have done with Brighton - Victoria. Use the station from ECW ?
     
  41. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Brighton station isn't as brown as Glasgow Central! I see what you mean though. Glasgow to Ayr would be a great addition.
     
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  42. taybarker20

    taybarker20 Active Member

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    So it seemed like the class 318 might had been the choosen loco but was changed but they did say if the route sells well then more locos will maybe come
     
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  43. Quentin

    Quentin Active Member

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    I'd prefer a northern section of WCML, if they could get it as far as Carlisle (though at 100 miles, that would be a very long route for TSW).
     
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  44. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Why did they change the ballast colour, is so ugly now.
     
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  45. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    oh sorry. I was meaning in the same context where routes could use the same models from other routes as starting points.
     
  46. Desiro

    Desiro New Member

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    I’ve never seen a 314 and quick YouTube jaunt didn’t help me much.

    Is it correct that we can hear the traction motors when braking in game?

    I figured they’d be like the other PEP units, once the controller is off and the brake applied, you don’t hear anything other than diminishing rail/wind noise, a bit of disk rub and a squeal when you stop!
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
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  47. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    If you search on youtube AP 314,315 pack may help give you an idea of the sounds
     
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  48. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. I'm wondering if someone from DTG could clarify why or how this change has occurred that looks so terrible? londonmidland has suggested it is due to the weather setting and I know that cloudy weather does make the game look washed out but I'm not sure it should have that degree of effect. It certainly doesn't on Hamburg-Lubeck and it's really putting me off pre-ordering Cathcart at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
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  49. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I like the ballast (colors) a lot, but the compression on PS4 hurts the eyes a bit :)
    EDIT The PC presentation was definitely a screen percentage ~ 150% or more. It's not that good on average hardware.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  50. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    There are new Masteries for Cathcart Circle. It seems the rewards are related to aliens and UFOs.
     
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