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Glasgow Cathcart Circle - First Impressions

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, May 28, 2021.

  1. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    I can't confirm this, but I heard on Discord from someone else that Matt clarified on some TSW facebook group that the difference in ballast color between last week's stream and this week's is entirely based on the weather settings and subsequent effects on the lighting. He clarified that nothing changed with the ballast since last week and it had nothing to do with the fact that it was the PS4 version. Again I can't confirm this since I'm not on any TSW facebook groups.
     
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  2. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Because last week was streamed on a PC and Matt has his settings set just so (hence shiny rails etc) and this week it was streamed from a potato... sorry a PS4
     
  3. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I really think there is something wrong with the lighting in 314.
    Forgive me for quoting you TrainSim-Matt but you were talking in the stream about it being very subtle but even I seemed to notice you somewhat surprised that it was THAT subtle, it rather looks like total darkness. You also said that British trains have lights to be seen, not to see. But I just took some screenshots at SEHS to compare with what we saw yesterday and there are obvious differences, even though they are British trains anyway.
    314:
    Screenshot_2021-06-04-17-04-49-039_com.google.android.youtube.jpg
    377:
    9c4af1b4-07f4-43c0-9820-8254aa9992f7.jpeg
    Here are passing to the right of a wall, and no light is reflected:
    Screenshot_2021-06-04-17-08-48-885_com.google.android.youtube.jpg
    The 377, on the other hand, reflects its light perfectly on the platform and the wall (also noteworthy is the beautiful real-time shadow it casts on the staircase):
    04e03f6d-7e88-4299-90a1-bac994d1f2fb.jpeg
    Here the wonderful illumination of the 465, if anyone likes to drive at night :D:
    adff2096-fa48-40f3-9f14-03fa9e75a320.jpeg

    And here is a video of a 314, which even when entering a well-lit station you can see how it lights up the wall:


    I don't know if there would be any possibility for this to be reviewed by the development team, I think many of us would appreciate it. Thank you!
     
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  4. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    That’s a Class 318 with high-intensity LED lights.
     
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  5. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are absolutely right. Just found this:

    Screenshot (416).png
     
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  6. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    They want change probably nothing as always.
    Come on Matt and make us happy with working lights.
     
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  7. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right, I didn't realise it's a 318. I don't know if there would be a night video of the 314 to see its illumination, maybe it's real that dark but I'd like to check it somehow.
     
  8. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I’ve got a great idea. Don’t look at the ballast. Ballast is ugly. Look at the scenery instead. Problem solved.
     
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  9. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    1. Ballast is part of the scenery.
    2. You're expectin people to ignore the railroad tracks in a train simulator, where you are driving on said tracks 100% of the time?
     
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  10. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Because i know that colours don´t change from PC to console, and not either does the weather change the ballast colour that much. The difference in the console stream ballast compared to the one form the other week is huge, and now just look awfull and ugly...
     
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  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter whether the Class 314 has filament bulb, halogen or LED lights, compared to a Class 318's LEDs. The headlights used will be very similar, if not identical, between these two trains.

    Trains on the UK national network have lights on the front that not only warn others (track/depot workers) of their presence and operational status (including direction of travel), but they also have a night light setting which is dipped towards the cess to pick out the speed limit signs - for the driver. And actually - that's all I want to see.

    But as it happens, most trains are also fitted with a central headlamp to light up the track ahead, so that the track can be inspected with a one man crew (just the driver), on the first train in the morning. These cast a dipped down beam at least 100ft ahead.

    And the day beam setting is usally extremely bright, so that it can be seen during the day, when ambient light is at high levels.

    But it doesn't matter whether a train has dipped night beam lights, or bright LED headlamps, or super bight day lights.... lights used "just as marker lights" also emit light..... and....you can see it.... and if you can see it from more than six feet away.... then it is emitting enough light to bounce off a catenary post that is a few feet away, and for that reflection to be seen by the driver on a very dark clear night.......

    That's how light works.....!
     
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  12. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    The light has been a problem with some of these routes. Case in point is CRR, its super hard to see sometimes when it is dark outside.
     
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  13. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the F7, in particular, had a powerful, twin-beam headlight which should be illuminating the entire vista up ahead, including in tunnels. CRR's F7's did not have a Mars light, more's the pity. That would have been a fun thing to see. MP explained the "headlight problem" a while back, but I didn't really understand it. Perhaps someone can "illuminate" us.
     
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  14. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    The issue that they've been unable to overcome, is that when they 'turn up the lights' to realistic levels, bright US locos in particular, then everything they illuminate in the night time, they also illuminate in the day. So it can be middle of the day, sun shining, and you've still got your patch of focused light, a few hundred yards down the line.

    The positive is that they've at least tried to fix it. Let's just hope they can eventually work it out...
     
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  15. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Well, if that's the case, I think it's a bit of a stupid problem, you can just turn off the lights during the day and that's it!
    It will always be better than forcing us to make night journeys in the dark.
     
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  16. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    But what about tunnels?
     
  17. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    I turn them on when I enter the tunnel and turn them off when I leave the tunnel.
    Yes, I know this is unrealistic, but is it realistic to drive an American train at night without seeing beyond your nose?
    The difference is that the lack of realism during the day would not make the route unplayable whereas the lack of realism at night does nowadays.
     
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  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    And that would be accurate. Day running lights are super bright, so unless something is reflecting a blinding direct sunlight at you, the headlights will light up stuff during the day - and especially clearly when it is in shadow, as a lot of lineside furniture is, quite a lot of of the time.
     
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  19. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarify - are you saying that when a train goes through a tunnel, say on NTP, that the tunnel walls, track, and lineside furniture should be illuminated and visible to the driver.... if your train has headlights switched on....?

    Is it you opinion that head-lights actually make a difference in tunnels...?

    If your answer to both of these questions is yes, then I am in agreement with you. But for that to happen, the TSW trains need to be modelled with lights that act as light sources. And that is what I am after.... ;-)
     
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  20. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    I think the issue is that it does so to VERY unrealistic levels.
     
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  21. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Surely it's possible to dim the headlight during the day, if you want. Personally, I'd put up with bright headlights during the day. After all, that's what we're used to seeing here in the US. At least, let us see exactly what the "problem" would look like and we can decide for ourselves. Nothing could be worse than the current hobbled F7 headlight.
     
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  22. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    A botch is not a fix.

    Anyway, listen to Matt talk about the problem here... Go to 50:47

     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
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  23. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    In the UK the day and night lamp (where separate are provided) are of identical type and brightness, it is just the position and in some stock angle that changes.

    The headlights on 318s and 314s are different, and give very different levels of illumination. 314s retained their original filament bulbs until the end whereas 318s gained HID lamps at refurbishment. The difference in visibilty provided by even an HID lamp is huge, and even more so for newer LED offerings.
     
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  24. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    To address the lighting issue.
    This image is from the last ever service to leave IBM Halt on the Inverclyde line, look it up, it's late night.
    The 314 Lights only have an effect on the platform, which is at the same height. The image isn't that helpful because of the lamps but the 314 lights are not very powerful at all, but are powerful enough to reflect off signs etc.
    images (3).jpeg
     
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  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    But the light is actually powerful enough, in the photo, to bounce off the platform and be seen by a human eye (or camera, in this case). The light isn't so weak that there is no detectable reflection at all.....!

    Excellent.

    That would be great - that's all that is needed. That would easily pick out the speed limit signs in the cess, and it would illuminate the buffer stops at Glasgow Central (happily, all at the same height). That level of illumination and reflection would be absolutely fine with me. Something, rather than nothing. Let's have that weak level of light coming from the Class 314 in Cathcart Circle, in order for the TSW model to have some trace of authenticity, when it comes to front lighting levels, and use of light sources.

    Perfecto. Thank you very much for posting the photo - it has 100% illustrated the point that I have been trying to make. I am immensely grateful to you for finding this picture, and proving the need for light sources on the front of the Class 314.

    Thanks....! We now need to see the change added to the Roadmap, and/or bug list, for immediate attention, to add a light source to the front of the Class 314. I look forward to this being followed up by DTG, ASAP.
     
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  26. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Well, MP said that headlights on American locos shouldn't be visible at all during the day. This is simply not the case. The ones I see passing through my neighborhood have bright headlights day and night. So, I'm none the wiser after watching that stream.
     
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  27. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I think you’re missing the point. I think he meant they shouldn’t illuminate a light source on the ground/ballast during the day. But due to limitations of TSW, it can’t tell the difference between night and day, so it’ll always cast a light on the ground, even in full sun. This is obviously not realistic.
     
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  28. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    So, there's a trade-off for the time being, until they solve the "headlight problem". So which would we rather have: headlights that illuminate a sunny day or driving up the Fremont branch in almost complete darkness and utter darkness in the tunnels. Remember that at least half the services on CRR seem to be at night or low light levels. I know which I would choose.
     
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  29. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Having watched both streams it’s a no for me. Route looks lovely and one of best so far but I don’t want a 20 mile bakerloo with one freight.the one train is a no too. Enjoy it guys , I’m going to sit this dance out.
     
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  30. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It would seem to me a practical DTG workaround to the headlight problem, even if not accurate, but at least do-able in the short term, is to set low beams to marker-light brightness, and high-beams to searchlight level.
     
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  31. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think that they only cut out the light sources when they want to recover GPU time. So it would not matter how bright they are, or what your brightness options are - because they would rather quickly go with "no option at all", than go back and reduce polygons and re-tweak textures.

    I am not sure what happened with Cathcart. The promo video and the first stream showed the Class 314 jumping about on the screen - but actually very smooth in the second stream - so they've presumably tweaked something in the last few days (and , of course, the ECW Class 313 has been sent back for further work on top).

    I also don't know if Cathcart included some experimentation with the shadow draw distance, or if implementing the rainy platform effects drained the budget so much that they had to switch off the light sources (although that should be just post processing). Whatever it is that they've done, I'd like to see the front lights come back as light sources, and always implemented as standard on all locos - with a switch to turn them on and off. ;-)
     
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  32. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    There is also a difference between shadow- and non-shadow-casting light sources. Some locomotives (I cannot remember off the top of my head which ones, but I believe this is the case at least with the Clinchfield SD40) have both shadow- and non-shadow-casting lights in the sense that when they are dim, they do not cast shadows, but when they are bright, they do. Apart from being able to see the shadows being cast with your own eyes, you can also see the drop in FPS when the shadows are being calculated versus when they are not. I find this to be particularly interesting because, in the case of more recent trains to come out, the lights are cast so close to the locomotive itself that, despite the performance hit of calculating shadows, they will almost never be visible from the driver's perspective.

    Cheers
     
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  33. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    According to Matt in a stream some time back, they could and in dev builds have very easily make US headlights lighthouse-bright as in RL; the problem was that they remained just as blinding in daytime. So the capacity is there; my suggested workaround is intended to solve the daylight problem while adding satisfactory nighttime lights.
     
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  34. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    Good morning everyone,

    Appreciate all the feedback you've provided in here. With regards to the ballast colour, the reason for the more grey colour during the stream is because we were using cloudy settings.

    MicrosoftTeams-image (52).png MicrosoftTeams-image (50).png
    I have included 2 images of Hamburg to show the differences more clearly.

    On the topic of headlights. How accurate they are has been discussed extensively within the team, and after your feedback we will be checking again to see if they are correct or not. This is not a promise that they will be changed before release.
     
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  35. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Guilty as charged! This was a thread about the Cathcart Circle route and some of us hijacked it to complain about the headlights on Clinchfield, among other matters.. Not a good idea, obviously, if we want a response to our feedback. Someone should have started a new thread and I for one will try very hard not to detour threads in future. My apologies.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
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  36. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for confirming that the headlight issue is being considered. If a change is made (at whatever point), it would be greatly appreciated if someone could post some images of the feature being re-instated.
     
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  37. glenn.doig

    glenn.doig New Member

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    Without going back over this entire forum has anyone else mentioned that 314s (and 315s for that matter) never actually had rheostatic braking so shouldn’t make any motor sounds when slowing down? Only 313/507/508s could do it with their camshaft rather than GTO traction.
     
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  38. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Unless my memory is totally shot I remember on an old stream that DTG said they didn't want to show light in the Tunnels as it would show up un-rendered tiles, textures, lack of detail ETC. Having it dark hides a lot of things, I think they were talking about Bakerloo but it was a while ago.

    Concerning your Paddington - Bristol/Cardiff for a 100 quid for full stock in the 1970's I'd pay it as well, I can't think of a better route. I think if it was well done more people than you think would also pay but even though as the preserved group has a talented guy (UK routes) I doubt DTG would go for it.

    I share your view that this GCC route might get stale quite quickly especially with just one train & one livery. The route does look good although the sound might not but I'll wait for the 313 first.
     
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  39. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    If true, then that really isn't a good excuse. It further shows why they need to do things properly the first time, instead of doing a half job of it with it causing further issues down the line.

    I mean, how hard would it have been to model the tunnel properly instead of some half baked, flat textured knock off?
     
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  40. The SimTrain Tube

    The SimTrain Tube Well-Known Member

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  41. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Graphical differences between the two builds don't = a colour change.

    It’s also already been shown that the colour change was due to a difference in cloud coverage.
     
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  42. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    Weather shouldn’t change the color of the ballast. It should just make the actual color (brown) appear darker or brighter depending on the lighting.

    Also, the console picture looks like it has motion blur enabled which could explain why the track looks blurrier than the PC pic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  43. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    The whole ‘full cloud’ weather system is flawed. It makes everything look lighter and washed out. I rarely ever use that setting.
     
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  44. heyitspopcorn

    heyitspopcorn Well-Known Member

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    Fingers crossed it’s something the core team may look into with/after the release of Rush Hour and the upgrade to 4.26.

    The entire skybox and global lighting system need an overhaul. I think short of AI-upscaled meshes or 4K textures (both of which would likely cripple last-gen consoles), a better lighting system would really have the biggest impact on making the graphics pop and look more realistic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
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  45. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    The ballast issue has already been settled as being due to the season/weather/time settings - it has nothing to do with platform.

    Regarding platforms used in the two streams, I am quite surprised that none of the PS4 owners have pointed out that the second stream in no way reflects the quality of the output from a PS4. That second stream was incredibly washed out in terms of contrast, colour depth stripped and heavy pixellated (with massive blocks of pixels). I watched the stream on a 55" TV, and I can assure you that the output on YouTube is nothing like what you get on a PS4 - the stream that was broadcast was clearly very heavily compressed, and as a result was very poor quality.

    I run TSW and TSW 2 on both PC and PS4 Pro (and yesterday I was given an XBox One X, so I intend to get TSW and TSW 2 for that as well, fairly soon..... just out of interest). I can actually compare performance across platforms, and I am not sure if PC players are aware... but actually, TSW 2 looks really quite good on PS4 Pro, and can be run in a 4K setting. I am not sure (yet) if the 4K setting would be advisable on Cathcart (it looked extremely jerky on PC in the first stream), but in general, 4K is fine on PS4 (Pro). With HDR in some games.

    Quick Q - are you running TSW 2 at a resolution greater than 4K.....? And have you run TSW 2 on a PS4 Pro at home, and on a PC, to inform your opinion of your comparison between the two....? Because I have.

    As an aside, with TSW 2020, the PS4 Pro sometimes out-performed (in terms of smoothness) a fairly hefty new PC in my like for like tests, even with a small fraction of the available memory and resources of the PC. This actually surprised me, but it is because (I guess) the PS4 Pro is incredibly effective at handling UE based graphics, especially when it comes to streaming map tiles. On PS5 this capability will be much enhanced.

    In short - what you saw in the second stream, streamed from a PS4 Pro, is not what a PS4 Pro is capable of. I am sure you will be able to find other TSW 2 content on YouTube where people have streamed from a PS4 with compiled content, and you will then see the difference between that and a heavily compressed live stream that included two live webcam camera feeds.
     
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  46. nwp1

    nwp1 Well-Known Member

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    Not long to wait now. I think it will be released at 5pm UTC tomorrow.



    Cane Creek will be the next release and this looks really impressive. Scheduled for July 8th or maybe earlier?
     
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  47. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I mentioned after the stream that I don’t recall the PS4 or Xbox One looking that bad, it certainly doesn’t on a PS5, definitely seems to have been some compression going on and maybe it was being broadcast at a low resolution too.
     
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  48. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    It is available now for console players in Australia.

    You can watch someone playing with a PS5 here:
     
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  49. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    For those interested in the complex layer of junctions at Cathcart, they are as follows;

    Cathcart North Junction is after Mount Florida where the line splits off to services continuing around the “Circle” back to Glasgow and where services to Newton divert and dive under rejoining at Cathcart East Junction

    Cathcart East Junction is on the Newton branch and goes towards Newton is where the lines from Mount Florida and Langside join (avoiding Cathcart)

    Cathcart West Junction is where the Neilston & Newton lines diverge and well going to and from Cathcart and to and to and from Langside.
    So you pass over it going from Cathcart to Muirend on the Neilston branch, going from Cathcart to Langside around the “Circle” and going to and from Kings Park on the Newton branch.

    Really is a complex set of junctions which is fantastic to see in TSW2.
     
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  50. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    It seems that the train's lighting has not been reworked, it still doesn't emit any light beams.
    Stations at night are marred by a totally unreal darkness and the lights on buildings in towns are even dimmer than is usual in TSW.
    The problem here is that we are constantly passing through urban population centres and it looks just as dark as Clinchfield, where you were travelling through mountains.
    So I get the impression that driving at night on this route is going to be a really tedious experience.
     
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