Glasgow Cathcart Circle - First Impressions

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, May 28, 2021.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I noticed something similar on GWE... for some reason the lights all turn OFF about 7am (even in winter when it's still dark) and turn on too late, so again it's dark in winter afternoons. Maybe something they should consider a fix for in the "summer update"... Turn the lights on when ambient light reaches a certain dimness
     
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  2. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    So, I am saying "easy".... relatively speaking. If there was no light source at all, then you would have to start factoring in re-optimisation (with re-build of the route/unit), because frankly the route is right at the edge of performance, with a lot of stutters on tile-loading and on large asset loading. Personally, I find the FPS and studder playable, but I know from experience that this will not be the case for very many people.

    With the light source in place, there are options (potentially), including increasing the strength of the light souce (with no cost), through to opening out the cone and increasing the depth (with cost, but not as much as putting in an entirely new light source).

    So - something can be done about the light at the front, and it can be done quickly and relatively easily. If there was no light source there at all, then I can imagine DTG not wanting to go back and re-work the route, and just instead hope that Cathcart's lighting issues will be forgotten in the Rush to hype the next DLC, like all of the DLCs before it.... ;-O

    Cathcart is a good route, by the way - it certainly hasn't been Oakvilled.
     
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  3. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry if you feel that way but you do come across as very patronising when people disagree with you. It seems to be you who won't accept the other persons point of view and your only reaction is to type very long, patronising and condescending posts as if you are talking to a ten year old. I think you will find most people will react in kind. You might not realise you come across in this way but you do. There is little point in putting across a counter argument to yourself as you then just ignore it and react with a sarcastic riposte. I still stand by my comments regarding the headlights or marker lights on older BR trains but am not willing to continued discussing it as you don't want to discuss it.

    And as for your earlier comments regarding being banned, you did that all on your own, you didn't need any help from others!

    I am here because I am a huge railway enthusiast and I love train simming and if you actually read my posts you will see that.

    So, I would be grateful if you could stop trying to make it personal by accusing me of being some kind of trouble maker, maybe you could be a bit more measured in your responses and not resort to being facetious.

    As for the route, no I don't have it yet, I need to upgrade my computer as I am finding TSW unplayable at the moment. However I will get it as soon as that is done. I have been watching most of the streams and have as much right to comment as much as you have, you have only just purchased it and were very vocal about it beforehand!

    Anyway I have better things to do than continue to argue, so will say no more about. I haven't come here to fall out with anyone, in fact it would be good to make friends with people on here, even just virtually and enjoy our combined loved of railways and train simming and enjoy getting to know people from different countries and cultures. I certainly don't come here to argue, I guess it can be too easy sat behind a keyboard!
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    How can you increase the strength of the light source without the cone (presuming this is the depth that said light penetrates in a given situation) depth increasing? That would seem counter-intuitive
    Certainly if I am driving my car along a road and I put high beams on I get reflective sources from much further away, so the game having to calculate which possibel surface has which reflective value, creating the reflective values and ensuring the angle of attack and reflection for each object is correct would definitely be a fairly large overhead
     
  5. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - I think it is core. I have noticed stations without lights, at winter, on the German routes as well - at certain times of the day. Maybe it can't be fixed in core though, and each route might need its own setting.... ;-O

    It is certainly something to add to the check-list for new routes, when they implement a check-list that is.... ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  6. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    This is actually a game-wide issue.
    Here's one of the Munich stations at 7am in winter 20210402211400_1.jpg
    It appears the ambient lighting is based on the time, rather than how bright it is which would make sense.
     
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  7. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would have to go through each route I own and see if the lights turn on and off at the same time in each (meaning core) or not (meaning route) (but I'm leaning towards core)

    Either way... a better system would be... better
     
  8. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    A great effort by DTG. Enjoyable route. Came across a signalling issue leaving Glasgow (green directly to red) whereby I had to tab past it (one of the Gantry signals). Gave me permission, and a mini theatre lit up with 'S4' on it. I've a feeling it's a bug, I'll see if I can replicate it.

    I still don't know why we don't have better speed signs for the UK routes - the font is still not quite right. Maybe even reduce the boldness of the font? The same ones have existed since GWE. Surely not too much effort to create some nicer looking ones? And it would improve immersion by quite a bit, I feel. A small detail, but an important one imo.

    But overall, thanks v much DTG, v playable network route, and really looking to forward to the gem, L2B.
     
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  9. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    That's okay, I don't hold grudges. Your apology has been accepted.

    It's never too late to learn to learn to restrain your temper, and try to be more civil to people. I know it can be difficult for some people to learn this, and I can see that you are aware of your problems, and that you are trying your best to be a better person, and that's all anyone can ask.

    So, I thoroughly embrace your efforts to try to improve your inter-personal interactions, and at some point I do hope that you will consider just talking about trains, and not make any more personal attacks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So now you can apologise for your patronising?
    Works both ways
     
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  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    So - I am hoping that the width of the cone is fine (but I don't know). The depth should be fine as it is for my needs - just a few metres - although I think that the depth goes out about twenty metres.

    If all they need to do is tweak the intensity, then that could literally be just one number that needs to be edited, because the calculations are all already being made for the lower number (and the effects are already being displayed for that low number, although you can't currently see them).

    I might pop into UE and have a look at the options. Hopefully it will be an easy fix. *fingers crossed*
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how that could be the case

    The 314 WITHOUT high strength light on would have a different light depth than when you do switch the main light on, so you would expect that in "markers only" you might light up objects a few meters away, but with the high intensity light on, and highly reflective new speed boards the reflections would be from say 200m away until about 10m away (when the angle would negate the reflective path coming back to the driver)
    I would also expect different speed boards to reflect differently
     
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  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference between:

    - making a comment about trains, and that being perceived as patronising (and I am often guilty as charged on that - although we all have different levels of knowledge, and I am happy to learn to fill in gaps in my knowledge, and I am also happy to be pursuaded to change my view by any logical and evidenced argument);

    and;

    - just making an offensive and abusive personally attacking statement, not related to trains in any way, but just done to try to undermine someone's credibility, because the argument isn't persuasive, or is just weak, or self-contradictory (I have also done this in the past, but I try not to - but it should always be called out for what it is).

    With you, I have certainly (deep in the past) made unacceptable comments towards you personally, and for that I certainly do apologise. I have actually grown to really appreciate your comments, questions and insight... and I think you do a great job of drawing out useful information (about trains) and keeping people on their toes. You really make a great contribution to the Forum - and I love reading your posts. The same can't be said for others, who seem to be primarily interested in doing a mob-based "pile on" on anything at all. Maybe they enjoy it. I am just glad I do not know them in real life (hopefully....).
     
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  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well, thank you for demonstrating my point so succinctly!
     
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  15. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    No, you were just patronising and not talking about trains at all...
     
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  16. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes - what you are describing is what I would want to see, preferably. But having tested the route and Class 314 as it is, I can say that, as it stands:

    - the marker lights are completely dead as light sources (they have zero effect); and.
    - the "headlight" is extremely weak, but is there as a light source (with a near to zero effect).

    I would like the marker lights to be light sources as well, but switching them on now could cause a performance hit (which would need to be optimised). Ideally, the marker lights would work, so you would get lighting from them, and then more lighting with the headlight. But that isn't the current setup.

    For me, the question is, what is the minimum that can be done in a fix, to improve the situation? And the answer (I think), is to just ramp up the intensity of the "headlight" - more power. Change a single number. Whatever they do, the effect of the lighting (and especially any shadow that it casts) will be limited by the shadow draw distance anyway - which appears to be about 20 metres (maybe a bit less).
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I see the same in you, but sometimes (and I guess it happens to us all) you want to keep pushing your point until it sticks in the craw... I have learnt sometimes it's best to smile and walk away rather than keep pushing the point, but when YOU got personal (as quoted above) it seems you lost the point.

    Anyway, I know that you, myself and the person you've tangled with above ALL love trains, want the game to improve and want to speak to DTG (and each other) to try to get this sorted...

    Now all we need is bigger cones and we can all be happy
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    As a minimum :
    • increase the light on AI trains so that you can see the main light from approx 500m
    • increase the driver light so that you can see a reflection on reflective surfaces from approx 200m
    • increase both lights so that you can see a reflection on non-reflective surfaces from approx 25m-50m
    As a moderate/full fix:
    As above, but include for:
    • old and new speed and other signs to allow for variance in reflective depth
    • include for light patina in the cess and other surfaces such as walls and nearby buildings, OHLE etc
    • Variance in lights per unit so some have slightly dimmer / off centre lighting as would be in real life
     
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  19. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    That's okay - your gratitude is much appreciated.

    And I welcome the fact that you recognise that my points are accurate, to the point, and made succintly. This is very pleasing feedback, especially from your good self - it looks like you are making rapid progress. It seems that your apology for your past misdemeanors was indeed sincerely made....!

    If at any time you want to talk about trains, then this is the place to do that...! See...? The abusive stuff isn't really needed, after all, is it...? You can be perfectly pleasant when you are trying.
     
  20. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yes. This. This is almost exactly what I would want to see. And you get it in TS2012.

    There are also LOD issues with lights in TSW.... the EOTD device on Oakville for example......
     
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  21. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I did find something interesting today, sometimes when you're driving a service the lights go out. I've submitted a ticket and put a post in the technical forum, but I thought people might find it interesting in this discussion and I'm curious if its happening to other people. Try driving service 2I17 in Winter Blizzard you should see what I mean. This shot is in a platform...[​IMG]

    It doesn't interfere with game play, its actually kind of fun, but really DTG should pay their power bill ;)



    Paul
     
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  22. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Anyone had this happen?

    I had a TWPS sound, when I reset you could hear that it had but this sound (listen to the video) remained. You could drive and everything. The next TWPS alert did not stop it happening either. You could hear it in the driving cab and outside the train but not in the passenger space or the vestibule.

     
  23. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Then you need to improve your route knowledge. You should know locations of speeds and signals based on stations and your memory, not on where the signs are.
     
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  24. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Well-Known Member

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    I think his point is that you have to be able to see landmarks and other identifying features to know where you are in a route. Some DLC's are extremely dark, and any weather other than clear just exacerbates that problem. Route knowledge will only get you far - can't bring it to bear if you can't see where You are without F9'ing. I have a mental image of a driver counting "One Mississippi, Two Mississipi..." to know when he has to start slowing down, lol.
     
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  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I would imagine in some cases this is around about right. "Third OHLE post past signal x" may well be a thing
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    But you would have to be able to see that OHLE post.....
     
  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    In almost any case you can see the post next to the track or the hangers (or whatever they're called) It would have to be very dark indeed to not see something within ten feet of you
     
  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    ...like in the game.
     
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  29. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yes, even in the game. Maybe with the blinds closed in the dead of night...
     
  30. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep. This is why I was quite excited about Cathcart Circle (and perhaps why I want it to be made to the highest possible standard). I was very much hoping to use it as a personal challenge, to systematically learn all of the routes (six of them) and drive them all HUDless. I expect(ed) to put about 100 hours into the route.

    But I also very much like driving at night. And you need to see stuff to navigate by night, even if you have intricate route knowledge - so that you can apply that knowledge. And I want to be able to enjoy the learning experience as well. I know - I probably want too much, and maybe I have unrealistic expectations for TSW.

    I think I might have to go back to TS2012 and learn all of the South London Network routes instead. Or I might drop train sim entirely for a year or so (again), and just focus on Assetto Corsa Competizione, AMS II and rFactor 2. I am re-settling in quite nicely with ACC at the moment, although I think I might need to start using my new steering wheel, because the old one has had about 50,000 miles done on it so far.... Oh, and a copy of WRC 9 has literally just been posted through my door as I type this.... ;-)

    All that said, there is certainly always fun to be had with the DB BR 101, the Class 101 and DB BR 155, in TSW.
     
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  31. Tanglebones

    Tanglebones Well-Known Member

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    You'd also have to be able to see what the signal number is, as I imagine it's easy to get disorientated. "Was that the third or fourth signal I passed?" Over time, I expect drivers will get a sixth sense for where they are on the route, requiring very little to reorient themselves as to precisely where they are. We, on the other hand, may need a little more than we currently get in the pitch dark of night, and considering our eyes cannot adapt to night vision as theirs can. At least those of us who like turning off as much hud as possible and trying to use just the cues that a real driver has.

    I often drive with just the upcoming speed change on and use that to simulate route knowledge, but it bugs me a little that I can't turn it off and just use the speed markers by the side of the track at night. I can't imagine a situation where real drivers can't see speed markers, TBH. That seems quite unsafe, no matter how much route knowledge one has. Humans are fallible and do get distracted from time to time, so being able to see these any time of day or night is essential, I'd think.
     
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  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    RL UK drivers certainly do use visual cues. I recall, I think from a post here, learning that drivers had been using a particular discarded paint tin by the side of the track as their braking point for an upcoming station- until some helpful citizen cleaned up the right-of-way......
     
  33. Alex_m30x#7297

    Alex_m30x#7297 Well-Known Member

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    where can I see this
     
  34. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Okay - so I have done some more testing... and the light cones are good. They are absolutely fine (for the purposes of Cathcart, and noting your personal preferences for very long range effects...to 500m.... ). The cones are quite wide angle, reaching deep into the cess on the left and into the six-foot at quite short range, and they seem to extend to the shadow draw distance boundary in front of you, but with a fairly vicious drop-off that makes them appear excessively weak.

    So, I am going to tag TrainSim-Matt and make the following suggestions:

    Easy Option 1: Triple the intensity of the existing "headlight" (I am assuming it is set to 10-20% of max)
    Easy Option 2: Double the intensity of the existing "headlight" and halve the drop-off (if modelled like that)

    Option 3: Double the intensity of the "headlight" and give both of the dead marker lights the same intensity/cone/drop-off as the current headlight when they are either white or red (if budget reasonably allows for these two new light sources at the front, and two new light sources, usually off-camera, at the back) - this would give the player more lighting options and immersion (when switching the lights, etc.).

    Tuned Option 4: The above three options are arbitrary guesses, in terms of scale/number, but if you wanted a tuned fix, then I would say make sure that whatever brightness solution is implemented, that the tunnels east of Kirkhill do not turn into an NTP style vortex of pure evil. These tunnels look really bad. I reckon the tunnels could be brought back out of the under-world with any of the above options, but I don't know for sure.

    In terms of reflection that I would like to see for this kind of unit (and of course, this is a personal preference), I would say that the reflection off the two/three catenary supports that are very very near to loading gauge limits, on the run from Glasgow Central to Shields depot reflect nicely... but they are very very close. I'd like to see other objects that are a bit further out (laterally, and in front) reflect with similar intensity.

    Couple of asides:

    1. The two map tiles on the approach to Shields (from 1000yds out) in the "Extra Time" scenario appear to have the wrong light settings - they are massively brighter than all of the tiles from Glasgow central to that point, and you suddenly jump into this brightness even though there is no obvious mega light source in the environment (it is as if the clouds have parted and the moon is suddenly shining full blast... and if that is the case, then that is superb... but if it isn't, because it is heavily raining at that point, then there is probably a problem there).
    2. I tend to run quite a high gamma, so my observations on train light sources are based on a high gamma, so maybe the lights need to be made brighter still....

    and finally...

    3. .....oh, and.... um.... wow - Cathcart Circle is an absolutely lovely route..... Well done to DTG with this mini-network - it's reallly great to see this in TSW.... South London Network next please... ;-)

    ------------
    EDITED: I have used the phrase "drop off" in this post, when I actually meant "fall off" or "attenuation"....
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  35. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    The entire Stations must be fixed with lights, it’s awful and you can’t see anything in the dark.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  36. Cotax

    Cotax Well-Known Member

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    One workaround for quiet sounds - Set the master + sfx volume to 150% in user.ini + open window while driving - it makes it much more enjoyable. I use this in all routes.

    Overall I am enjoying the dlc, the only issue for me are low sounds.
     
  37. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The in-cab sound is too gentle. External sound is superior & so good \o/
     
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  38. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Like DB628 has said the stations need to be addressed, it is too dark and sucks all the fun out of it. What chance have newer players got when they are confronted with near total darkness. Surely DTG can look at photo's and compare what is reality and what is not.
     
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  39. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  40. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    It looks so terrible how they ruined the Experience at the Night.
    Specially I mean the Stations, it’s not Right that you can’t see anything.
    Please do something shortly TrainSim-Matt
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
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  41. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if it's just me but all the services I drove at night were fine. It was dark, but not pitch black and I could see fine, even though the headlight wasn't doing much work (I did the freight service too, it's alright and a nice idea but nothing to write home about)
    I was running early morning on the Autumn setting.
    TSW2_Cameron_1623584143_00.png
    The match day scenerio however had poor lighting in places IMO, so maybe it's an evening thing?
     
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  42. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    It only looks like this under certain circumstances. Journey - maybe a few services (3-4?). It has something to do with cloudiness, but not only. Old things ... /o\ TSW-core issue.

    PS I have some hope, in Rush Hour it will be OK :)
     
  43. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    an example of this phenomenon ('every' DLC issue) link :) wait until 9:50
    EDIT I play on PC & This is not my YouTube channel, just an example.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  44. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Without labouring this point though, it's not just Cathcart which looks too dark. All the routes suffer from it, notably NTP where the cities which should be awash with ambient light from street lamps and large buildings are black as pitch. You should still see something when the moon and stars are clear, even out in the countryside. Wouldn't be so bad if the game had a gamma or brightness adjustment as just about every other title does.
     
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  45. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Core lighting problems affect this. There is daytime ambient lighting and nighttime ambient lighting but there is a period of transition where there is neither. You can see the track and other features once the night lighting has fully appeared but the transition doesn’t cross the two lighting states over, one disappears fully before the other starts fading in, leading to an hour or more of complete absence of any ambient light. Together with that issue is the separate problem of the station’s lights not coming on when it goes dark but at a set time (it appears to be the same for every season, although not 100% sure of that) which often coincides with the time that has neither day or night ambient light, and results in complete blackout.

    For Cathcart, once the station lights and the moonlight are present, I think the stations look fine although still darker than reality but at times of less or no ambient light they appear too dark and when that coincides with the station lights not being on, there is nothing to see at all, which is a huge issue. This is the same with all routes currently and is not unique to Cathcart.
     
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  46. Coppo

    Coppo Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know if Unreal 4.xx includes latitude effects in the code. As mentioned previously, the latitude of Glasgow would result in there being no "night" during June and July, just some form of twighlight...
    If it does, would TSW be able to incorporate it?
     
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  47. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I ran the freight service too, and I can say that the Class 66 has a powerful enough headlight to make Cathcart quite immersive - almost perfect - and it makes the tunnel sections quite atmospheric. This is the lighting power that should be given to the Class 314. As an aside, you could really feel the 2.9% grade with the freight run.

    NB: I found it to be a bit difficult to set-up the lights on the Class 66. It seemed to be a strange combination of settings required to get the red marker lights to go out on the front, and when you go to the trailing cab the light source is only attributed to the dead side (not that you need these lights - I was just goofing about).
     
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  48. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    About 1 hour into my stream recording one of the viewers David asked if we could try, we talked about it a bit then started to try it out a few minutes later. It doesn't quite work, but you could pretend, and when we're driving a simulation game what are we doing all the time? :).

     
  49. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I very much agree with this. I do track inspection and second person in diesels on Puffing Billy Railway www.puffingbilly.com.au as a volunteer. I've made so many trips along the line that people can show me a photo they've taken along the line and generally I can tell them where it was taken.

    We do miss some cues in simulation though, those are movements and accurate place sounds. I can generally tell you where I am on the railway based on the clank from a joint or a place where the track machine rolls left or right, I know which curves tighten up and which ones loosen up as you go through them. There are enumerable other cues. All of these things together help you find your way along the railway and you learn where you can go faster and where you slow down - initially you depend on speed boards but it simply becomes second nature to you over time. I do observe that most drivers don't continually observe forward - you tend to look up, take in what you can see then operate until you've reached the point and then you look up again. You could observe constantly, but most of the time you really don't need to and this gives you the freedom to monitor your driving and concentrate on your train handling and to look back along the train and monitor the train to keep an eye out behind.

    In simulation we don't have the movement and sound cues and we've got nothing else to do but look forward so you tend to become a little fixated on that. I do sometimes think it would be cool to have side and behind monitors set up so you could actually turn and look out in those directions. If this kind of setup was viable it would make Track-IR interesting.

    Paul
     
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  50. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I’d still rather have vr personally
     
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