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Glasgow Suburban

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pookeyhead, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm.... Not looking like £24.99's worth, sorry. Maybe grab it now it's in the Steam sale if you need it for anything.

     
  2. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I strongly disagree, as I think it is a fantastically done route, regardless of and in spite of Alan's opinion. I've always found him to be a bit of a DLC snob and unfortunately don't really enjoy his videos as he's EXTREMELY condescending towards anything not top of the line AP or similar.

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/suburban-glasgow-phase-6-0.17928/
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
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  3. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    I picked it up, worth a punt to support Rivet.

    One day I may get to actually use it :)
     
  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree there. I wouldn't support a company that takes a freeware route, then doesn't really do much to improve it, then tries to charge me £24.95 for it. It looks terrible, has many of the same modelling issues WCML South has; has really poor rolling stock with it too.
     
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  5. 805 BENBOW

    805 BENBOW Member

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    I am thoroughly enjoying the route. The only thing that could of been added would of been AWS magnets warning of a lower line speed.
     
  6. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    If you feel that way, then no, you definitely shouldn't buy it. I have it and have enjoyed it, but we obviously both have different priorities for what makes a route enjoyable. Hopefully the next one tickles your fancy. However, take a look as some screens I took with ReShade, RWEnhancerPro on, but without the AP Weather pack turned on yet. I think it's difficult to say it looks terrible. I wouldn't just the whole route based on only Alan's video because that dusk sky is admittedly pretty horrid and does all sorts of bad things to the lighting.

    As for the whole freeware turned payware thing. I think some folks in the community are missing an important point here (I'm not necessarily saying you are personally). The majority of TS20xx players do not own a huge library of DLC. As such, many/most/some freeware routes are simply off limits, or would cost a pretty penny to get all the requirements for. Yes, Rivet is now charging for it, but it also means that people can enjoy the route for $35 or whatever where previously, many, many, many people simply could not due to DLC requirements even if it was technically, "free". There are some great freeware routes available but they're also extremely inaccessible to the bulk of TS20xx owners. So if you have DLC out the wazoo and already have the freeware version...awesome (I'm not being sarcastic). Don't buy this version. Honestly, it's probably not geared towards the super diehard fan anyway.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
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  7. Sharon E

    Sharon E Active Member

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    Was just looking at it and from those screen shots, it looks like a nice route to run.
     
  8. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Full disclosure, I'm running at 4K with 2x2 Supersampling with ReShade and RWEnhancer Pro.
     
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  9. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    Rivet generally turn out good releases, so I'm happy to support them. I already have the full freeware Suburban Glasgow route, but I'm still interested to see what this release is all about.
     
  10. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    And TS looks just as good, if not more realistic, than TSW here.
     
  11. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    You only found those when the line speed changed more than an amount, I think 30%.
    Otherwise they would be all over the system and lose their impact

    Peter
     
  12. brummie

    brummie Member

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    Morning All,
    Bought this route add - on last night and have to say, what a fantastic route this is! There is so much detail, many station stops and I find it thoroughly enjoyable. I didn't have the freeware version so cannot compare the two if anyone was thinking to ask, but that must have been excellent too, if this is anything to go by.
    Is it worth buying, most certainly is IMHO.
     
  13. 805 BENBOW

    805 BENBOW Member

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    Really ! Times have changed since I was a driver.
     
  14. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Did you have a warning board for every speed change?
    You have to change for 50 to 40 so would you have a warning board?
     
  15. 805 BENBOW

    805 BENBOW Member

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    Yes we did. AWS magnet. Special notice boards and the Weekly Operating Notice.
     
  16. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    You would only find TSR's in the Weekly Operating Notice and any Permanent Speed Changes for a few weeks and then in to the PON.
    Must have been a bit of a duff Region to have a PSR Warning Board for a 10mph speed change.
    They did not do it like that on the LMR :)

    Anyway, nothing to stop you placing them in your version of the route.
     
  17. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Member

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    I've been considering this route and Alan Thomson's video has probably made it more likely than less. I thought he was very fair. He did point out that if you have the freeware route, it may not be worth it. But I hardly have any of the required Assets (the vast majority of routes I own are German and Swiss) and I don't want to go searching for all the bits required. For me the price for packaging it all together and revamping some of the existing route looks like pretty good value. He did point out, as have many other youtubers, that there are a lot of old kuju assets used, but to be honest, I don't know what it looks like in real life so I can't say whether Rivet have done a good job or not.

    A lot of his criticisms were from leaving the cab. I don't tend to do this much (It's a train sim, real train drivers don't fly around the local area looking at buildings while the passengers are loaded, they stay in the cab ;-) ) so I can ignore these.

    Only really considering it as I enjoyed Fife Circle, so a bit more of Scotland would be nice to drive. Definitely one for my wishlist.
     
  18. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I did always find this an odd habit of his. Flying around to look at how the devs modelled the rear of a building a block away that the only way you will ever see if if you fly around looking at the rears of buildings a block away! Lol. He had one criticism of one of the stations because the back of the station, which you cannot see unless you fly around looking for it, had ugly and inaccurate conservatories....
     
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  19. AlexTheMole

    AlexTheMole Active Member

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    Alan Thomson certainly seems to have very high standards when it comes to DLC, but I do think for the most part his look at this route was fair. It is certainly a route I look forward to picking up one day, and as someone who never had the "freeware" version (a misleading term if there ever was one) I am much happier paying a one off fee to run the route than have to have all the requirements needed which would very likely end up being much more expensive. The terrible stock is irrelevant to me as I luckily have AP stuff I can substitute, but lets be honest this is far from the only payware route to come with bad stock!
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  20. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I do think some of this obsession with buildings miles away or ones you would rarely see is over the top to be honest. Some seem to go out of their way to find problems which to most people wouldn't be noticeable.

    As for the stock, at least it comes with stock. I love JT routes but it irritates me that they don't come with any stock included, often just reskins.

    I have virtually all the AP products too so I tend to make my own scenarios using those.

    Trouble is, when developers are reviewing other developers are they truly objective? If you were looking for a new car, would you take any notice of a review of the Vauxhall Astra by the head of Ford UK?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
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  21. dunkrez

    dunkrez Well-Known Member

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    You have a very valid point there, it's practically impossible to review products without confirmation bias when you are a developer yourself.
     
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  22. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    mattdsoares You appear to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet regarding Alan Thomson (not accusing you of anything you are of course entitled to your opinion), I'll admit to not particularly taking to him myself at first, I have to say that opinion has changed and I do actually subscribe to him on YouTube now and enjoy his opinions on his first look videos (remember that's all they are 'his opinions')

    Another source of videos I watch is those created by Train Sim TV (The Just Train lads) they approach 'first looks' and reviews from a route developers perspective, as opposed to Alans reviews based purely on a players perspective.

    Alans videos tend to release a day or so ahead of TSTV's so I find it interesting to watch Alans perspective of a route and then later one of the JT's boys, and most of the time they mirror the same opinions and pick up on the same issues, so that tells me more about the route being reviewed than anything.

    So mirroring the points of both YouTube reviewers I'll ask you this, do you think it's acceptable for a payware route by as big a provider as Rivet to use 13yr old Kuju assets in a 2020 released route and not to build custom stations at important key locations?

    To help you decide read this 'About' from Rivet themselves..
    BTW, If you want to watch videos that skirt over inconsistencies, ignore glaringly obvious issues and bumble their way through a 'first look' by trying to smother it with 'humour' or more often than not blank stares and ramblings, I recommend you stick with DTG's own Train Simulator channel.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
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  23. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Yea, I'm not a big AT fan for a number of reasons, most of which are probably irrelevant to what we're talking about. Though to be clear, I'm not some Anti-Thomsoner or anything, I just find it difficult to fully enjoy some of his work.

    As for the Kuju assets...that's a really tough question that I don't think is nearly as simple as it sounds. I have never been to Glasgow. Closest I've been is Falkirk, and even then, I couldn't tell you what the station looked like. The only trains I've been on in the UK that I actually remember other than the London overground and tube is a GWR HST.

    From that perspective, using old Kuju assets doesn't bother me as much because the things that will matter to me in terms of the assets are going to be more that overall "feeling" or atmosphere they evoke plus are the major recognizable buildings there in a way that again, makes me feel like I'm in X place. This is obviously highly subjective and given my lack of firsthand knowledge of most of these routes, using some Kuju stuff rather than all new isn't going to be a major issue to me. It's similar with the trains themselves. Yes, I'd like all the trains to be super accurate. But what does that actually mean, especially to me, someone who has never been ON let alone been in the cab of the majority of these trains in the game? AT rags hard on the 320 that the route comes with. I still don't understand why. I assume that the doesn't have some buttons that he wants or the width of the headlights are off or some other issue that is going to matter to a hardcore train fan that knows these units well. To me, it looks fairly well modeled, things seem to work...so while I don't discount the disdain for the unit, I also don't fully understand it.

    Ultimately at no point do I tell anyone how they should feel about the route or AT or anything else. I even cautioned someone who was going to buy the route seemingly on my "advice". I think it's also important to note that personally I am a gamer first, not a train fan. The new Assassin's Creed and then Cyberpunk will severely cut into my train sim time over the coming months. I do not know a lot about trains in the real world (though my knowledge has certainly grown with TS20xx). I don't take photos of trains. I don't read about them. I seldom even travel on them. So my priorities on things like routes and stock are going to be different that someone like AT. Perhaps that's why I'm not a big fan!
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
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  24. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    And both Alan and Mark (I think it was) both said exactly that, if you're a purist you're likely to be annoyed, if you had the freeware route you're likely to be disappointed with the payware version, if you're new to the route and just a (hate this next word as it is so often misconstrued) 'casual' player then you will undoubtedly be happy with it.

    And for clarity..
    I could have written exactly this, in fact the last time I travelled on a train was nearly three decades ago, I just love the sim..
     
  25. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I didn't.

    I can sum this up like so:

    Suburban Glasgow Northwest: Springburn - Helensburgh Route Add-On = £24.99

    Gu Studios - Breckland Line - Norwich to Cambridge = Free.

    Just drive a mile or so along Breckland, and ask yourself if the Rivet route is really as good as you think it is. Seriously, from the a nice looking cab like a AP class 158, it can make TS go head to head with TSW in my opinion. Sure.. it's not a long route, and it has some signalling issues, but it IS an alpha release.

    Seeing as I kicked this whole thread off, allow me to put my OP into some context. I don't think the route is rubbish, I just think that taking something that was available as freeware, and doing relatively little to it, then charging £24.99 for it, is just too much. It's still dripping with Kuju assets; Some of the stations models are laughable, and for a full price DTG route, and the stock it comes with is terrible.

    I don't understand the arguments such as "yes, well... the freeware version needed SO much DLC" etc... So? Freeware routes often do. That doesn't give carte blanche to developers with Rivet's experience to spruce up a freeware route with a few custom assets, and whack a £25 price tag on it.

    It's not terrible... not great either. The Steam reviews reflect this.


    I agree. The "feel" of a route is vital, but you can do that just as well without using Kuju assets. no one is saying a Kuju heavy route can't be a great route, but one with equal "feel" using great looking assets is clearly a better option. The fact is, its 2020, and I do not want to pay full price for a DTG route full of Kuju assets when so many GREAT looking freeware routes are amazing. Why should I?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Not sure this is true. I would say I am very much a purist but as long as a route represents what is there in real life I am not too bothered if the buildings aren't exact, unless they are something iconic. Having said that if it was my local line which I knew intimately maybe I would be more circumspect. Incorrect track layouts and signalling, would be a different matter.

    If for example, if Dumbarton Central station building is a single storey 19th century structure and they have used a single storey 19th century structure to represent it, than personally it doesn't worry me. If they had used a mock Tudor timberframed building I would be disappointed. I don't know the route at all so I don't know and what the eyes don't see the heart doesn't grieve about.

    I watched the trainsim.tv reivew, I like their streams they are very fair minded and I enjoy the relaxed nature of their videos, although I stand by my earlier point about the objectivity of a review of "a competitors" product. Personally I don't see them as competitors as I purchase anything that interests me whomever produces it, as I am sure most do. However I did feel that they were making a bit too much of the use of Kuju assets which overshadowed the many positive things they had to say about the route.

    So, I would suggest that the amount of people who would get so angry about the use of old assets isn't as great as suggested.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  27. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I get what you're saying and I pretty much agree, I'm not dissing Rivet, did I expect more from a company that boldly states it's attention to detail? Hell yeah I do!

    I have recently found the XCRoute thanks to another thread on this forum and I think it's fantastic, I regularly commuted between Malvern Link and Worcester Shrub Hill for work eons ago and the first thing I noticed was that Malvern Link is not accurately facsimiled, but the map author has captured the essence and feel of it and other stations well so I'm not mad, au contraire I'm genuinely impressed it's a great route.

    Would I be as impressed if it was a DTG, Rivet, AP or JT payware route? Hell no, I would be seriously disappointed, that's what I mean.
     
  28. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Based on the fact that you don't? I disagree.. it disappoints me greatly.
     
  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Based on that I haven't seen that many angry comments about it, I wasn't stating any facts just an opinion!
     
  30. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Keep that in mind, then go to 2 minutes 40 seconds, and press play.


    I agree: Unacceptable.
     
  31. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    There are two threads on the General Discussion forum about this route.

    This one for the people who follow the words of Alan Thomson
    They don't like the route because Alan went round and pointed out a number of visual errors

    And the other thread https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/suburban-glasgow-phase-6-0.17928/#post-199441
    Which seems less bias towards the route

    And there are the reviews on Steam which has 12 so far and all positive
     
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  32. Cyclone

    Cyclone Active Member

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    From the way ATS seems to have content that makes heavy use of AP products, that tells me everything I need to know about his site. 7 pounds for a scenario pack and I have to buy way more to run the scenarios. As I've said elsewhere, I can understand one or two, but I don't like the idea of buying a pack and having to edit every single scenario. There's a ton I can play without his site, and his opinion on what looks like a beautiful route seems flawed.

    I agree most routes are not worth the full price. I did buy Suburban Glasgow and will run that early in my channel's life, though. And route packs utilizing things I don't own; if you are selling a pack, at least make versions for people who don't have all the Armstrong and Just Trains DLC. You are costing yourself sales by not doing so. I'll eventually download and edit free packs, but that's about it.
     
  33. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Just for the record, it wasn't only AT that gave this route a good panning.
     
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  34. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    AT just seemed to bothered with the graphics rather than the playability of the route.
    The only Negative post on Steam was some German chap who said it did not install - so not really a review
     
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  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There are plenty of positive reviews, even on steam as pointed out above, which tends to speak volumes. I have only seen two negative reviews, there may well be more but these were both Youtube reviews by people who develop or host TS1 content.
     
  36. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure there are.

    Who seem to have no problem giving great reviews to many other pieces of DLC from "rival" developers. I'll get you a tinfoil hat :)

    Old freeware route dripping with Kuju... £24.99... enough said so far as I'm concerned. It's not terrible... I never said it was. If it's a decent price in the Xmas sale, I'll probably grab a copy to replace the slightly flaky freeware version. I just don't think it's worth £25.
     
  37. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    It was released for £5 off that price
    What are your thoughts on the Marsdonshire route?
     
  38. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    It's on offer... but it's actual non offer price is £24.99.

    I don't know the route. I'm not really interested in fictitious routes, so I can't comment on it.


    It's not the graphics themselves that concern me, it's the fact that in 2020, we're still seeing newly released routes using crap Kuju assets. No, graphics aren't everything, or I'd be using TSW2 and finger painting my trains in stupid liveries and cooing over how shiny it looks. I just don't want to see any more Kuju crap in new routes. How long can developers milk that rubbish for?
     
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  39. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Honestly? Probably as long as there is a TS20xx. I know we all want handcrafted brand new everything...but man this market is sooo small and niche for routes and hand modelling takes a lot of time. How much do you really think Rivet can make on this route? There is a balance these devs have to reach between time spent on assets and how much they can reasonable expect in sales.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
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  40. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I presume you don't have a Class 47, a Deltic or a HST because at they are, in your words "Kuju crap" or does the crap bit only apply to Scenery assets and not Rolling Stock?
     
  41. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I have the 47 and the Deltic because they are part of the Euro Loco asset pack, which everyone has. I never "bought" it. I never drive the Kuju 47, or the Deltic... they're crap. While the HST is Kuju, there are a great many add-ons that address the problems: New cab textures, new headlight modelling, and of course the AP enhancement packs and high quality reskin textures as well as features the Kuju original never had.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
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  42. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Did you watch Train Sim TV's Twitch stream last night? A perfect example of a freeware developer making a route and stuffing so many custom high quality assets in there it beggars belief. Stop acting as if it's an impossibility. Complacency benefits no one... yourself included.
     
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  43. Cyclone

    Cyclone Active Member

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    What route was that?
     
  44. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Cambridge to Kings Lynn
     
  45. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Strange the Author is making a Kings Lynn to Cambridge route when the section from Ely to Cambridge already exists as part of another route on ATS - Cambridge to Peterborough

    Nothing from Cambridge to Ely then you get two freeware routes in a couple of years
     
  46. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Like buses... two come at once :)
     
  47. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    But please look at what you just said. FREEWARE. That's someone doing it for fun, as a hobby. They're not looking at margins and profit. They're not worried about paying people and keeping the lights on at the HQ. They're someone making stuff on the side for fun. Which is awesome! And I applaud them. But that's very different than a small commercial developer who does have to take these things into account.
     
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  48. Cyclone

    Cyclone Active Member

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    Found the one Peter is talking about.

    And it's on ATS. In other words, to play the route, you need several DTG routes, which at their cheapest values recorded comes out to about the same amount of money (maybe a little more) than the route itself. To play anything scenario-wise that comes with the route, you need some 350-400 of additional DLC. Again, this is not what I consider a good route release. Everything to run scenarios that are by default included with a route should be included with the route, and they don't even include a train. I'd like to see a proper release of a route like this that is self-dependent for the scenarios introducing you to the route, and therefore a train included with it. As such, $40 for this work is overpriced. Therefore, I would not be upset if someone like DTG or Rivet took on this route and made their own independent version.
     
  49. inversnecky

    inversnecky Active Member

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    Hopefully in a future Steam sale, this’ll enjoy something like a 50% discount: the current price with small discount is a little too steep to tempt me!
     
  50. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    You might have to wait a bit for 50% off the Glasgow Suburban - maybe up to a Year
     

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