Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Mar 12, 2021.
Nothing that other software companies don't do - look at the bugs in products like Fallout 4 or Skyrim, you can still fall through the landscape in the latter.
And closer to home, how many times have N3V repackaged Trainz, pushing out "new" version after another but failing to fix underlying shortcomings, causing new ones or even reviving old bugs out of the spaghetti code? Yet we still buy it, though I stop short of taking up their monthly subscription model.
None of the train game makers - even the free ones - offer a perfect product so it's a case of making the best we can out of it. Steam refund policy is your best friend in the case of TSW/2 DLC. And it all beats the text graphics and zero sound of Simudrive, hands down...
The problem is not that this is not a perfect product or that patches also break things that were working before, the problem is that DTG abandons work on their old content completely and only have a small team that now has to work through everything trying to fix it.
TSW is the first and only train simulation game on consoles, it meets a need that did not exist. I find it great that DTG does.
I'm the boss of a small business in a niche business (like DTG for a train simulation game) so I know what I'm talking about. These are complex business models and you have to know how to make risks. Once the risk is accepted, decisions must be made, among other technical ones, sometimes they are good, sometimes less so. But until you try, you can't tell.
I have opted out for TS instead of TSW2, sure I bought it at release, but that was solely because of the London underground route, and since I could still get my TSW2020 addons to TSW2 I thought it was worth it.
The reason I won't be buying more addons for TSW2 is simple: though Dovetail do bug fixing it seems they are content with a certain amount of bugs, even if they break scenarios, they are also content with foolish scenarios like having to back up 20 miles in a geep making you unable to see signals from inside the cab. If you look trough Dovetails own addons on steam you can see routes that are heavily bug infected and are never revisited, addons that are 4, 5 or 6 years old still suffer from the same bugs. Yes I do love train simulators and Dovetails happen to be the one I like, the reason for playing TS instead is as simple as that it has an editor which gives you the freedom to fix certain bugs yourself though this should NOT be necessary, but it's the reality of things. I have started to avoid Dovetails own DLC's because I know they will have bugs, and those bugs will not be fixed.
I have just had a go of that....took me back to the old days of computing and train sim software!
Despite his claims of victimhood, I wonder if he was kicked out of the beta testing pool not because he posted videos saying bad things about DTG on YouTube, but because he posted videos saying anything on YouTube. Almost all beta arrangements (other then public betas) come with a non-disclosure agreement, and I doubt DTG are any different; you are being given access to stuff that's still confidential and you are expected to keep that confidence.
Someone in the comments section of that video did explain the whole editor thing and he understood. Maybe read the comments of his video as well
I always ended up getting kicked off for not bringing in the reverser quick enough on the steam locos, when doing their Perth to Inverness route.
He was never kicked out. He left because he didn't like how dtg was handling some of its products. He claims that they tend to release somethings out in a really buggy state and not fix them till later down the line which let's face it has been the case in certain areas like Preserved Collection and some routes still have yet to be fixed. HMA on last gen can be used as another example with its bad framerate issues.
That is true and it takes months to fix the issue. The lirr update has yet to come out almost half a year since release and routes such as msb and rapid transit have yet to have bug fixes. All of these issues could've been avoided
I haven't watched the video but i wouldn't be surprised if they were trying to be clever making videos about stuff they shouldn't be and calling them breaking news and leaking stuff, and when found out got boot very much stuck in arse and booted of the Beta testing team, and now they feel slighted and a deep resentment and hateful grudge has built up and this video is the result of it because they can't accept what has happened to them and now will only be happy if DTG take a massive hit on sales and reputation, thus making themselves feel big and powerful when in reality they are nothing more than a bitter vengeful and quite frankly pathetic human, ive seen this sort of thing play out so many times with so many people, the individual specifics might change on every instance, but the timeline, action and intent never do, people like this can be read like a open book from a million miles away.........
He never got kicked out if you actually watched the video. He left because he didn't like dtg's business practices and how they handled certain content. He would report issues and at times they would never be fixed
Actually, he says precisely that he was kicked out, allegedly in retaliation for saying negative things on YouTube. The later comment stinks of whiny self-justification ("You can't fire me, I quit!")
This was not about a public Editor, he said that DTG wont give the Dev Tools to third partys (like Rivet Games is one).
Well, Third Party studios (like Rivet Games) have the tools, otherwise they wouldn't be able to make addons. DTG just want to control the access to these tools so that not everyone can make addons for themselves. This is not a bad decision as a company, since the game itself isn't open-source.
Never take anything at face value and question everything, looking between the lines you will see so much more, and the never ending repeating patterns of every facet of humanity will be clear as day to see........
The impression I’m getting now is that he wasn’t even in the beta team, he just used to get keys to do reviews online. I could be wrong but that’s what I picked up before stopping the video at 38 mins and reading some replies in this thread. It’s quite a lot lower down than the OP of this thread saying he used to work for DTG. He’s entitled to his opinions but his are no more valid than any one else’s and if you put yourself up online as an all-seeing eye and speak with what you express as some sort of authority on a subject you can expect to get a bit of stick if you make a fool of yourself by misunderstanding everything you are trying to discredit. Far from his video putting DTG in a bad light, he’s done that to his own channel. I’d say his opinions are worth less too because of the way puts them across. I’ll not get personal but as I was watching a bit more of the video Mrs Stujoy looked at me and asked “who does this guy think he is?” Two minutes it took her to get that impression.
This thread would have been a lot better if londonmidland had not posted a link to the video and just but his own opinion. I feel its awfulness has rather clouded what could have been a good discussion about development.
In short, a poor guy who did nothing!
But of course ....
For me it is neither more nor less than a disguised revenge, he victimizes himself in the eyes of his subscribers and that is what is sad.
Frankly it is not worth adding, when you do not like a few things we part with it and then it is not worth spitting on more.
I am not very happy against DTG sometimes and that is not why I spit on it, apart from messing up a game you do not make it move on the contrary and after this MR comes to say that he is criticizing constructive and well he has a funny way of doing it.
It becomes very inflating this way of doing things and the forums are full of these people full of rages.
hence the desertion of these same forums of people who would like to participate in good conditions.
DTG, I think it's high time to clean up here.
Spot on. I don't know if you got to the bit where the 75% easier figure came from, but it did seem a bit like it was plucked from thin air.
Glad someone has said it, I honestly don't recall this person being on our beta team and most definitely not a member of staff - I have no idea where the OP has conjured this stuff up.
Our Beta team DO consist of people who are highly critical of us - I welcome that feedback. We aren't always able to live up to their expectations for various reasons (though sometimes we do exceed them, i'm happy to say ), but I will never ask someone to leave because of that. A beta team who do nothing but say "woo lovely" is frankly useless - and we are fortunate that we have a wide range of varied people giving up their time and energy to help us, and we all benefit because of it.
So, I for one, would like to say a big thank you to those that ARE on the beta team, I hope you all know how much I appreciate your efforts.
It seems more and more likely that the said person in the YouTube video had very little to do with internal development and instead just wants a rant about something. Perhaps I should’ve realised this beforehand.
Therefore, I think it’s time to lock this thread as everything that wants to be said, has been said.
Thanks for everyone’s feedback/opinions and especially those who actually work within the company.
*in the western world
There's a major train sim franchise in Japan that's been going since the 90s and is available on basically every Nintendo and Sony gaming system under the sun, and windows, and mobile. It's called 'Densha de Go!' btw.
How do you get on the beta team Matt?.
ho yes i'm a big fan of densha de go.
Besides, the last one only available on arcade machine in Japan is superb !!
I allow myself to put a small video for all who do not know.
to have something like that in europe would be great (DTG for the next one think about it !!!)
I stopped listening when he talked about the Q&A process and "doing what they said" and then went onto say he hasn't watched a DTG stream in years, not since Bakerloo... which was last year.
If you're going to pick holes in something, be sure you get your facts straight
Edited that for you.
It's the Youtube way. Completely fabricate your background to make people think you know what you are talking about then proceed to trash the organisation you pretended to be part of. Result = many views.
In reality the guy is crying because keys dried up, it's nothing more than that.
Glad to see a response here from you Matt, and I'm going to point out two things:
1) You provide no absolute confirmation, it's a 'I don't recall' - open to interpretation. Be clear, not ambiguous as you are being here - you being the Senior Producer should have the means to get absolute confirmation if you so choose it. You are pandering to the community divide.
2) If you do welcome the feedback, and admit you cannot always meet their expectations, what are the standards for release? Is the team given a standard your release is to meet? If so, why release unfinished content? There is a difference between acceptable release quality and feedback to meet such, and 'This is great, fine for release, but it could be better.' feedback.
One of the things that goes back to Sam's focus was clarity, and this muddies the waters. There are DLCs I'd love to buy that are on sale, but this kind of response isn't making me want to buy them. Seeing what the company has done recently has made me hesitant to give you any more money. Maybe I'm in the minority here though.
Somebody please tell the beta team (whoever they are) that they need to pay attention to things. I faced a couple of wormholes in the latest DLC. As soon as you start coupling wagons with the shunter the whole universe physics go crazy
I watched another one of his videos (regrettably), were he picked apart and seemingly took offence to Sam saying “Hello again, chums” if you’re taking issue with a greeting and picking that apart, then I give up. I genuinely couldn’t watch anymore.
I think Sam, comes across really genuine, and is as open and honest as someone can be, within the boundaries of what he’s allowed to say in his capacity with DTG. Put it this way, he’s someone I’d go and have a pint with, because he comes across as this friendly, welcoming person.
So in terms of transparency/openness/the future of DTG
Has anyone on here ever worked on Social Media, ie: Twitter as customer service? What I’m about to say below is very relevant.
I have, and one of the most frustrating things, is there are limits as to what you can and can’t say, even if you knew the real answer, you had to go off a prepared script given to you at Manager or Director level. Not only that, you are never given the full story, people on here want to the in and outs of absolutely everything, there is just no way that DTG can reply or give out answers to some of the questions asked on here.
Specifically, we had a case where I had to respond to someone using a prepared statement, that a) I didn’t agree with and b) I knew wasn’t the whole truth. Now, you can say, well why sell out your principles, because at the end of the day, that job paid the bills.
I think, for a company DTG are very transparent, the fortnightly roadmap, the follow up stream, there aren’t many games/simulators (delete as appropriate) where you get that and as I alluded to above, there will always be limits to their transparency and openness, for whatever reason. People make fun of the phrase “If it’s not on the roadmap it’s not being worked on” but I think that’s a good line to go with, there’s no room for confusion, or second guessing.
And, finally, I’m not going to pretend everything with TSW2 is perfect, there’s still quite a few outstanding bugs, as well as it optimisation issues, I feel.
Also, I’m not saying, we can’t have negativity, negativity is good, in a constructive way. Look it what it did in response to SEHS first stream! But, there’s a difference between that, and the constant, aggressive, childish, trolling negativity, that we see on here, and to me that isn’t acceptable or helpful.
But, I can honestly say, I’ve never turned TSW2 off because of a bug and gone, “I can’t play this”. I’ve been frustrated, I still spend time, tweaking engine.ini settings trying to get the “perfect” look!
And as someone who’s day job is on the railway, believe it not, it’s some lovely escapism and given me years of enjoyment, and I’ve been playing since MSTS in 2001!
So, I’d say take the videos posted with a pinch of salt.
Matt (thanks Matt), has posted on here, and said more in a few posts, that put me at ease, about the “state of the game” than the few minutes I watched of that video.
I had the exact same issue
Let's not fault the beta team here. Per Matt's post, for all we know the beta team did find this, reported it, but DTG didn't want to fix it.
That'll be because the beta team's remit appears to go not far beyond "can I move and then stop the train" if what Sam's said on streams is to be believed.
this one is hard to miss
At this point I honestly don´t really care if errors where reported and they where not fixed even if reported. This would be even worse, as it would mean the DLC was put on the shelves on purpose with known issues. But as it´s not the first time we see so evident mistakes (the services count in the previous post is another example) I ask myself if they are simply kidding us or what´s going on here. There´s no logical explanation to some things we see. And we have seen a lot so far. Nobody played a service to notice that it was not counting in the list? Really? How do you test things then? Do you launch the game and if DLC does not crash game then it´s cleared to go to steam?
I think if you watch the streams you kind of get to the point where you think they must be developing right up to the deadline, that there isn't any leeway to ensure a "gold standard" (which doesn't really exist in online games I know)
So it seems to me that they fall into the trap of trying to work to a deadline whilst still developing things even after beta and then end up falling over
There really isn't a logical explanation to some of the issues that are clear as day hence why some are annoyed. It's most likely due to a fact that they have to meet a deadline and since dtg clearly have a "Release it Now, Fix It Later" Policy any outstanding issues get released as is like some preserved collection routes. That or they don't do through tests
The idiocy has reached a new level with N3V, they let developers use scripts that wasn't released for the users yet, I remember all the newer Jointed Rail routes ruined your entire install, and that really sucks when there are lots of Jointed Rail routes included in the subscription model, I ended up actually buying the game twice, steam and non-steam version and they both broke in a different way, imagine after the issue with the JR routes it took more than a year until they introduced a fix. Never playing a N3V game ever again.
Well, if DTG were disposed to bring a slander action against SimUK, there's their evidence of harm.
This conversation has been brought to my attention and I have decided to clarify one IMPORTANT inaccurate point made by the OP.
In defence of the OP they did state that they didn't watch the entirety of my video, & as such some key points have been missed.
Correction (& it is an important correction)
Yes, I used to BETA test DLC for TSW before release, but I did not nor have I ever worked for DTG; equally I never asked for a key for TSW - they always contacted me, until the last video
(I did clarify in my video that I had never seen the back-end code (legally or illegally) and that my prediction of their construction and limitations were based entirely on my own professional experiences having worked with numerous software development teams during my career as a Software Developer - In a software house and as an independent).
Regarding BETA Testing & Keys : On both counts I Rescinded my association with FSW & TSW, not the other way round.
BETA Testing for FSW I could see their attitude and list of priorities were totally out of whack and would happily share email correspondence where FSW contact me and I asked them to remove me from their email list.
Equally I made a review for Rapid Response and called for a Boycott of future DLC (before keys dried up).
I haven't watched or been involved in anything since then (with the exception of Bakerloo as this is a DLC I had longed to see for a while, but ultimately I didn't even review it because I was so disappointed).
I nearly forgot: I recently worked on the BETA of Carp & Coarse, I gave it a fair and mostly glowing review...so factor that in to your assumption of my character next time.
Explanation of what OOP is and how it could benefit DTG & TSW
Simply put: OOP affords Rapid & Progressive Software evolution.
In its purest form it is intended to take a new software product (TSW 2021) and allow it to evolve systematically whilst ensuring that any and all improvements, including diversion from the original path, can be immediately implemented across all associated pre-released content whilst also ensuring that none of the previously released content is left behind, inadvertently broken or corrupted in any way.
Simply put: a single enhancement can benefit all DLC and content that came before it instantly.
A Single point of failure ensure that any bugs introduced during development can be isolated, addressed and resolved then be instantly updated across the board for all instances.
This approach essentially provides what is known as the core of the application and can be considered as the trunk of a tree.
OOP does not immediately update branches of said software tree, they are often unique and unrelated, thus prone to individual points of failure.
Example skybox should be part of the core/trunk and any update or improvement should role out across the entire DLC library without issue benefiting ALL DLC (it matter snot where in the world the DLC is based, nor what loco’s are there).
Route specific location based POI (like signal points) are unique to a specific DLC & whilst it should adhere to the overall core conditions applied to ALL signalling points (for a specific country/system) there are occasions where some potential differences might require additional input.
In this specific example the likelihood of that happening should be almost zero, due to the core control of the signalling systems and it is only a failure to adhere to those set rules which should introduce unexpected behaviour (I concede that individual loco’s (which can never be a part of the core) could introduce slightly different outcomes
However it is IMPORTANT to understand that identical locomotives built using OOP can also be fixed or improved and have those fixes & improvements rolled out across ALL like locos regardless of DLC because they will adhere to the same exact rules and regulations set out in the core; this would also apply to locos with additional modifications as the loco’s core would set the precedent and any additional elements would in essence be considered as the branch.
I am not anti TSW, if anything I want to see TSW reach its full potential.
Having worked alongside DTG on a number of projects (not working for them as an employee but independently and as a consumer) I see the repetition of Q&A failures, a consistent inability to resolve those quality issues in a timely manner & that happens across the board & Broken community promises over and over again make it impossible to trust DTG or TSW (even if they promised something with the intention of delivering it; it makes no difference).
DTG are not a small struggling company, although they are happy to have you think that. Financial records up to 2016 indicate very healthy year upon year growth & was the foundation for their multi-million pound investment. Records since then have been obscured by a declaration of Micro-entity Balance Sheets and a somewhat confusing 9999- Dormant company status (I need to look into what this actually means by law & I am sure that digging further would reveal more information relating to these unfamiliar grounds).
DTG see you as passionate followers or their cause, as recruits and I quote CEO Paul Jackson and COO Jon Rissik directly as their Army:
“Our long term vision is to build an army of enthusiasts that we can service. We think about it as a platform that we can keep engaged.”
Which makes me think of a carrot and stick scenario, & that opinion is further compounded by this statement:
“Our customers tend to stay with us for multi-year periods. They’re deeply invested in what they do. They don’t play other products; they’re not playing Train Simulator one day and then Call of Duty the next. They tend to stick with what they know. We think about it as being quite different from games”
I see little respect and honesty at times from DTG or their loyal fan base, & in many of my videos I have highlighted some disrespectful and derogatory behaviour towards any potential or existing customer that feels unhappy with anything DTG or TSW have produced; and that frustrates me endlessly.
DTG have the talent, they have the resources and the finances to make the most amazing Simulation titles, but IMHO they lack the passion, and favour profit over quality. They refuse to listen to any constructive criticism and allow their ARMY fan base to fight their cause even when they have no leg to stand on.
I really hope this video and resulting conversation will enable a proper debate to emerge & enable DTG and TSW to reconnect with all levels of their customer portfolio; in a perfect world I hope this encourages them to make the changes that are necessary to improve quality across the DTG brand.
I thank you for your time.
So you're not anti-TSW but called for a boycott against the DLC?
Well this was a intresting read. Thanks for the clarification as many misinterpreted what you was saying in your video manily because not everyone watched it fully. Now I am actually curious when you mentioned their finances as to how much money they actually make. If they also got a Multi Million Dollar investment and continue to grow money wise then that leads me to some questions.
1. Why did dtg make existing tsw2020 players pay for tsw2? If their profits have been growing since 2016 then there wouldn't have been the need to make players pay for what was effectively an update?
2. Why was the most recent DLC (The 70s GWE Pack) $22.99? The people who made the pack effectively had nothing to do and were getting paid regardless. They had nothing to lose
3. Why can't a new update like skies be implemented across the board to older dlcs automatically? I don't think skies would break a route.
4. How in the world did Matt (The senior producer Of Train Sim World) not know Sim UK was a beta tester? Did he lie or didn't know because it seems odd that Matt doesn't know who tests his products. I don't think dtg would just let some random old joe test tsw. It's not as if dtg have thousands of employees.
5. Who decides the prices of dlc for this game specifically?
6. Does DTG have a Single Point Of Failure system to catch bugs that are so clear as day and fix them before release? If not then why? It seems that bugs that are clear as day purposely get released and fixed later.
7. Who is allowing products that have clear problems being released as is and not allowing the devs to take the time to fix the most clear issues?
8. Why does dtg at times like in the Western Diesel Legends pack pre-release stream shrug off any concerns about the price and a bug that was spotted at Reading? Not 100% professional
Now personally I don't just play ts and tsw2. I play a whole bunch of other games and sims so I guess the CEO's quote doesn't apply to everyone. I do think dtg should change some of the ways they do business and how they address issues because they keep making the same mistakes at times which will annoy some. DTG cause self inflicted wounds for themselves and opens themselves to justified criticism. I wonder what would happen if tsw2 had a direct competitor on console
He called for a boycott because dtg keep continue to make the same silly mistakes on many areas but he was aware in his video that if people stopped buying tsw2 dlc, the game wouldn't exist as they wouldn't be making any money. He likes the game, but he doesn't like dtg's business practices hence why he left the beta team. Many here assumed he got the boot when that was never the case
Uh, you are looking at the wrong company...........
On the Companies House Website, do not look at Dovetail Games Ltd, look at Railsimulator.com Ltd which is the actual company. Last accounts are there up to 31 March 2020 which is correct as of course that is the last complete accounting year, and they are displayed in full.
I mentioned this above, Matt is pandering and trying to discredit his statements. Unprofessional. Matt chose his words carefully to be ambiguous and give him an out for exactly this reason.
DTG, this isn't helping you convince me to buy any of your DLC currently.... Why would I want to continue to support a produce where the Senior Producer just made a claim to pander and discredit statements from another member of the community without confirmation, and for that member to turn around and make a statement that adds clarity, but discredits Matt? If there is anyone damaging DTG right now, it's Matt. I really wanted to buy a few DLCs too that were on sale... but I guess not. You can thank your own team's public behavior for that.
Also, we have no idea what any kind of large investment would even be for, or if it would even remotely be tied to the development of TSW. I am not sure why DTG's growing profit margins or investments are even relevant to this discussion, growing profits and gaining investment is exactly what companies are meant to do. Whether you like that or not is up to you, but it is the nature of the world we live in.
Matt is so passionate but that statement had me baffled. I guess it was a good thing Sim UK was tipped off so he clarify some things. That unprofessionalism regardless of his passion at a different company probably would have gotten him fired and adds to sim uk's point that at times dtg can be unprofessional to critics of the game and I guess now former beta testers
Sim UK plans on doing a video apparently about the investments dtg have recieved. Obviously gaming companies need investment but other games that are small probably get a similar investment and charge less for their product
I stand by what I said, I do not recall ever having had anyone calling themselves "SimUK" as a beta tester. If they were there with another name then I don't know that name. I could spend some hours going through emails and digging into the history of it but honestly it's just not that important to me, I'm already working all weekend on other actually worthwhile stuff as it is. This is why I gave a wooly answer of "cant recall", happy to be corrected, but I speak to the beta group all the time - literally been on a discord group call for the last 5 hours or so today with a bunch of them.
I should add that I have known SimUK for quite a while, always had good conversations with him so I'm not in any way denying that I know him - Can't recall his real name though, and hence that might be why I don't recall - and as I say, i'm not interested enough to spend time away from actual work to dig further.
Skies are implemented in core, but the route itself needs to be pointed to use the new sky system. Once the change is in, which affects all the lighting throughout the day-night cycle, it just needs a quick check to make sure that it's gone in ok and hasn't introduced new issues with assets there and how they react to the light, or gameplay that might have been designed to be at a certain dawn level or something that might now be in complete darkness for example. That then requires a full update of the route out to players as a new download. It isn't a big job, and is being cycled in as routes get looked at for other issues. Adam has said many times - rather than one big multi gig download per fix, we are aiming for many fixes in one single download.
Correction on that - I believe I asked Sam to add it to the feedback notes, and regardless of that, it is on the fix list and being worked on. I don't make a big deal of issues on stream, you can see it for what it is without me shining a huge spotlight on it. That's why we do these streams - show the product unfiltered and unedited, when mistakes happen you can see them happen, and can therefore feed that into your decision process.
Anyway, I think i've contributed sufficiently on this thread and it's going around in circles at this point - so i'm going to duck out and get on with this timetable.
Enjoy your weekend folks!
Separate names with a comma.