Have Dtg Got Themselves Into A ‘out Of Control’ Situation?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Mar 12, 2021.

  1. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I am struggling to see any concrete basis for your claims here beyond baseless speculation. You seem to be suggesting that Matt is engaged in some kind of conspiracy against a member of the community because he couldn't remember if they were part of the beta program.

    At the end of the day, DTG can charge whatever they want for their DLC. It's their game and what other companies charge is irrelevant. If you deem the cost to be too high, then don't pay it, same with everything else in life. C'est la vie.
     
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  2. Sim UK

    Sim UK Member

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    Whilst I actually don't want to involve myself in this discussion per-say; as by my own admission I'm not actively using TSW and haven't for a while (even Bakerloo line only got a few hours of my time), this every changing discussion I hope will be put to good use (DTG & Community as it is change I was after & NOT views on my channel).

    However.

    1) Matt P does know exactly who I am, to suggest otherwise is frankly odd & I revert back to my political statement.

    2) I made an off the cuff quick search for DTG trading practices, and whilst the investment to DTG is related to TSW in-directly it is still pertinent and interesting area to explore, which I may/may not actively spend time doing (opportunity for DTG to make their own statement clarifying if they so wish).

    3) Railsimulator.com Ltd is the official TSW registered address and as such trading info is freely available to view for anyone. A two second search does prove my point : Profits for 2019) £646,645 + 2020) 1,995,360. Small and struggling? Not quite.

    4) One last thing I want to say that I forgot to post in my original post; the price would be absolutely fine....The Lack of Quality and the short lengths for each route IMHO never will be.

    I repeat; DTG have the talent, they have the resources and the finances to make the most amazing Simulation titles, but IMHO they lack the passion, and favour profit over quality.

    Thank you.

    PPS To CM Sam : It has been mentioned you said Chums & not Chumps, so I would apologise for miss-hearing that (I accept you may very well have said "chums").
    I would suggest you consider addressing when you told a potential customer to leave the Q&A stream when they voiced their opinion on the product being promoted; unprofessional.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
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  3. lmcpfc2014

    lmcpfc2014 Well-Known Member

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    I watched a third of this guy's video but stopped watching about 20-30 minutes in because he was just picking on the smallest things. The "Hello Chums" part of his video really irritated me as he was accusing Sam of things that aren't true. I think that Sam and Matt have been very honest in all the streams they do and are very nice and entertaining people. As someone who has an Xbox and can't afford a PC, Train Sim World is the only train game I have and can get. There are lots of problems with TSW but the only ones that annoy me are ones that DTG can't do anything about, which is shadows, buildings, trees and fences appearing when they are just ahead of the train. I love TSW and I think that (even though Diesel Legends was maybe a bit over priced) the price I pay for what I get is fair.
     
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  4. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Again dude your taking everything he says at face value without questioning anything and that's never a wise move in life, of course he's going to say alot of that stuff because he's been backed into a corner, and believe me I'm no DTG army fanboy, I'm just a normal bloke with a brain in his head that doesn't believe a lot of things written in forums on the internet........
     
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  5. cilldroichid

    cilldroichid New Member

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    I don't get this line of thinking at all. DTG, no more than any gaming company, don't 'make' anyone pay for anything. You have free will, if you think its worth the money buy it, if you don't think its worth it don't buy it.
     
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  6. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Have you read his statement at all?
     
  7. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    DTG have the talent?
     
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  8. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Yup, the Talent 2
     
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  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well nobody including myself was forced to buy tsw2 but when a company has a lot of money but charge for what is effectively an update and say the reason is because it was expensive even though they did get investments it does raise an eyebrow for me. 1,995,360 pounds for a small company doesn't seem like a company that is struggling. The price of the dlcs for this game is something that I can afford, but at times dtg release a product that has quality that doesn't always reflect that price tag. Also if you wanted to get the new features and potential routes that you wanted to come to tsw2020 but never did, it was either get it or keep playing a game that would no longer get support and new routes
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. East Coastway was a amazing route. Fishing Sim World is a beautiful looking game. Flight Sim world had potential but I don't know what happened to that game. The modelling of their locos is usually spot on as well although other aspects of tsw2 do need improvements
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
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  11. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Read every word of it thanks, still not going take anything as gospel thou mostly because frankly i don't really care about what he has to say, this is just a great way to people watch as you can tell a whole lot about a person just by how they phase things and the way they write, it says a lot about their personalities too if you know what you are looking for, that's why i always read between the lines and question everything..........
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I do think for myself as well and I do question many things in life. If I didn't question things, I wouldn't get anywhere in life. You think he's been backed into a corner when that's was not the case and he even said that. You have a right to believe what you so wish to believe but don't criticize people for having a difference of opinion. I watched his video in full. You probably did not and I thought about what he said and agree with some points. You do not and that's ok but just because someone has a difference of opinion doesn't mean they don't think or question things
     
  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Christ. What he was saying, in diplo-speak (we lawyers know it well) was "I have no idea who this bozo is, and I certainly don't remember him doing any beta testing, but I'm not going to issue a flat denial without a roster in front of me, just to be sure."

    Oh, malarkey. See above.

    That calls for a stronger word than "malarkey," but I can't use it on a family forum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well I clearly said "Didn't Know" when you quoted what I said
     
  15. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I find it amazing that there are people here actually defending this video, largely because it backs their own viewpoint. Well, sometimes you have to be careful about the witnesses you call to support your case, because a witness with lousy credibility can scupper your case rather than help it.

    "TrainSimUK" has to my eye zero credibility. He comes across as an angry nobody on a rant who -and this is fatal -pretends to inside knowledge he does not possess. He claims to "know Matt well," although he has never met him. He praises Adam's attitude and disposition, though he has never met him either. He rants about TSW not using OOP, when in fact it is full of OOP- plainly, he hasn't a clue how the game is constructed.

    In other words, he's spewing, on the claimed authority of a tissue of nonsense.
    ____________________________

    PS: What do DTG's or RailSim's financials have to do with the price of tea in China? Do people demand Microsoft cut its prices just because it's the wealthiest software company in the world?
     
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  16. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well you are entitled to your opinion as people who may agree or disagree with his video does as well. Matt did eventually clarify that he and Sim UK have spoken before and he knows him and has had good conversations after I asked if he lied or didn't know so they have spoken before. Did you even watch the full video? It is long though
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
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  17. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Not entirely related to the above but I recall Adam saying in a stream routes will get updated to the new sky system, which features better clouds, lighting and weather effects.

    I just want to clarity and want a few question answered regarding this:

    1.) Correct me if I’m wrong but these aren’t new clouds. It’s simply a big texture with Cirrus clouds. Whilst it looks nice, it doesn’t make a single difference to the lighting as it goes BEHIND the sun, as it is a texture. I don’t think it’s dynamic either?

    2.) Adding to the above, how ‘new’ are these clouds, as they look identical to the default UE4 sky dome clouds, when you create a project? Therefore, haven’t they always been around, but DTG hasn’t activated that layer?

    3.) Are there any new dynamic cloud visuals, as they look exactly the same as the older clouds to me? These are the dubious looking, flat 2D clouds.

    4.) Finally, what new ‘weather system’ is there, as it looks and behaves exactly the same as older routes?

    What I CAN say is that there has been a slight improvement to day lighting, specifically during sunrise and sunset, as well as mid day during clear conditions.

    However, night time lighting and and lighting with clouds remains awful in a lot of areas, and has a lot of weird bugs and side effects. One of these issues is that the clouds will reflect light down to the ground, making it significantly brighter compared to clear weather. It also significantly and unrealistically reduces the saturation of scenery colours in the world.
     
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  18. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    To be honest i know who you are but i don't know you and we are having a conversation, all the points that you claim prove something being used to prove that they mean nothing really, everybody talks to everyone else on here and you get to know who they are but you don't know them personally, just a little point to think about really.......

    Oh and before you think this is me trying to say your wrong about anything it's not, just a simple fact that can't really argue with.......
     
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  19. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I'll pop back in to answer these questions and them out again :) - since they're decent questions :)

    1. We have never shipped with default UE4 sky dome - what you saw was a partial implementation of a third party product called "Ultra Dynamic Skies", but only one or two of the layers were active. It's not a texture, it's dynamic, as you can see in one of the LGV scenarios, the clouds can build up dynamically. You can't do that with a static texture. Even if the clouds aren't building or reclining, if you zoom in, you can see their shapes changing slowly.

    2. For TSW2, the Tech Artist and Engineer were able to get the rest of the Ultra Dynamic Skies system integrated and working with our weather system, meaning there are now multiple layers of parallax clouds overlapping. He also looked at all the lighting values that were being used throughout the day and how the cloud system was interacting with them. One of the problems identified was that the clouds weren't taking *any* light from the overall lighting system - so you would have a dark blue night sky, with white clouds in it, or an orange sky with ... wrong coloured clouds. He tuned all of the system to respond to those colours correctly and make sure the clouds sat correctly in the overall sky at any point. He also tuned the overall global illumination to how it looked on the scene with varying clouds and varying times of day - in some of our internal comparison shots the overall illumination of the scene is quite different compared to how it was.

    3. See above.

    4. Not aware of a new weather system? We are using more and more of the system we had already implemented but not used properly - such as the dynamic weather that we have in one of the LGV scenarios for example.

    I would strongly recommend going back to TSW2020 and getting shots in a variety of day/night with varying clouds, and then do the same (on the same routes) in TSW2 - side by side, the difference is quite obvious and a massive improvement.

    Is it where it needs to be to be able to say "job done" - absolutely not... same for all of it really, TSW is, and will be, a continually developed sim and we'll use the feedback we get from players to help direct that development.

    Hope that answers your questions.

    Matt.
     
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  20. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the usual information, Matt.

    Finally, I’d just like to add to the sky questions;
    1.) For that pack, are you using 2D dynamic clouds or volumetric clouds?
    (Answer)
    2.) What was the reason for choosing (choice 1) over (choice 2)
    (Answer)
    3.) No doubt newer routes will continue to benefit from better weather/lighting visuals, however how will this affect older routes? Will there be a ‘rolling update’ to try and keep older routes looking as good as newer routes when it comes to the lighting? How is this prioritised?

    For example:
    Route 1 uses lighting V1. Upgrade to V2 or V3 (latest)?
    Route 2 uses lighting V2. Upgrade to V3 or stay on V2?
    Route 3 uses lighting V3. No upgrade needed.
     
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  21. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    We use 2D Dynamic clouds. Volumetric clouds are too expensive and I'd much rather spend that CPU down on the ground with the train physics. As the average CPU's and GPU's people use get bigger, as cloud systems develop and improve (I believe newer UE4 versions have a cloud system too for example, but i've not played with it yet) we can keep reviewing it, that decision is not set in stone, but it's why we are where we are.

    One of the jobs Adam's team are doing is switching routes they touch over to the updated sky and lighting - i think he said on the recent roadmap stream that LIRR has been switched to it as part of the recent work they've been doing for example.

    Adam also talks about his process for which order routes are updated in, so I recommend you visit the live streams and ask him on one of those - but bottom line, I think it's based on a) the types of routes coming out (if we're releasing a US route, update some US preserved collection), and b) where the biggest issues are. However, this is his space so ask him on a Roadmap stream.

    There's no reason any route can't be upgraded to the latest sky dome and lighting. Essentially anything released TSW2 or later is using the new system, anything before that is old system, and anything updated by preserved crew since TSW2 should be new.

    The general task of reviewing older routes and improving them with new features and upgrades like level crossings, lighting and PIS etc is the entire purpose of the Preserved Crew and Adam and his team are doing a fantastic job at this new function in the team.

    Matt.
     
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  22. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more.

    However, I think quite a few people think that they’re often overwhelmed with the amount of work that they do, which is impressive to say the least, especially given the small size of the team. I think a few more heads in Adam’s team would help massively with the workload.
     
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  23. raptorengineer

    raptorengineer Active Member

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    the unreal engine 2.26 has dynamic cloud system built in the engine so you don't have to pay for dynamic weather add on. now i donno how far the unreal update for steam your going to upgrade to example 4.25 or something. i think ur4,26 is the last major update that epic will do and move to unreal 5. that my guess.
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    As Matt said, volumetric clouds use way too much processing power.
     
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  25. OsamaBinLiftin

    OsamaBinLiftin Member

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    For console players and the majority of players, sure, but with cards like the RTX 30 series and the latest Intel and AMD processing beasts, I think there should at least be options to enable it, if adding that option wouldn't take much extra dev time
     
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  26. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    What Matt explains here is what I also noticed while testing the dynamic weather tool. I had not realized about this until I payed attention to the evolution of cloud cover values. The textures are not static and appart from moving on the sky their borders are fading in and out slowly as cloud cover changes. You will better notice it when few clouds are on the sky (below 30% cloud cover more or less) if you focus view on a single cloud for instance.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
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  27. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There are games though that have that volumentric cloud system and like like red dead redemption 2 and runs fine on last gen. Fortnite also uses volumentric clouds and uses the same engine and that runs fine as well on last gen and I'm sure next gen at the very least should be able to handle that with no problems. It's probably not enabled because of optimization issues on last gen consoles ( wouldn't be surprised since optimization on last gen in this game ain't 100% perfect) but maybe on next gen and pc it should be enabled. Dynamic Weather is also something that should've been a feature a long time ago
     
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  28. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    TrainSim-Matt, TrainSim-Adam

    Regarding the post about the TSW2 skies and their implementation. As I haven’t seen it said anywhere, if there is no intention to update the skies on ECW when the PIS patch is released, is there anyway that decision can be reviewed?

    It would seem a real shame to have the PIS but still have the old skies. If they were both done at the same time there is very little else that route would require.

    Cheers & thanks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
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  29. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    ACE 7 HAVE Damic Weatheynr
     
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  30. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Got to be honest the only downer I have right now with TSW2 is the unreliability of the save game function, i.e. loss of scenario or timetable detail at the top of the screen, AI and signalling locking up. If that was fixed, game would be cooking on gas for me.
     
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  31. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    There seems to be two conflicting arguments arising from this discussion (amongst other things)

    1. Adam is overwhelmed and needs more staff - in a department that improves existing DLC and therefore doesn’t directly generate revenue. More staff cost lots more money.

    2. The price of DLC is too high.
     
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  32. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I flip between TSW2 and TSW2020 a fair bit, mainly to play the German content in 2020 because of the loco sounds in 2. It’s when you go back and see what 2020 looks like that you realise how different 2 is with regards to the lighting. The sky is better too. It looks better more of the time than the old sky did. That can be seen without going back to TSW2020. It can still look bad at times just like the old sky but not as much.
     
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  33. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    More likely someone decided it's not something a lot of people are looking for in a train driving game. I hardly ever change the weather because I can't be bothered.
    Given the joke on TSC forums used to be "How do you make scenarios interesting? Make it rain" I would imagine many people see the sky in game the same as they do in real life, unless it makes an actual difference (and for the most part it doesn't) why bother?
     
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  34. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Well another long read from people who know better than Dovetail how to run their business.

    I was going to comment, but it's a waste of time as I just don't care how many angels can dance on the head of the pin.

    I just want to see improvements with each release.
     
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  35. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    Complete agreement. In TSW2, I am mainly interested in railway traffic and everything related to railways. I don't care about the sky with clouds and other trifles. All I want now is to return the layers to the HMA.
     
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  36. ildario77

    ildario77 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, mate. Just ordered it on Play Asia. It's simply amazing. Can you believe this game is based on Unreal Engine too? It seems 10 years ahead compared to TSW. Ok, a totally different game, but, damn, this is REAL.
     
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  37. wingo44

    wingo44 New Member

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    boring topic
     
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  38. Jo_Kim

    Jo_Kim Well-Known Member

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    You're welcome to ignore this thread.
     
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  39. mariussoare_84

    mariussoare_84 Well-Known Member

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    It feels like Adam's team has given DTG more freedom with regards to release dates because that team will take a look eventually in the future and improve on some of the most pressing aspects of a route.

    It only relies on the professionalism and people management skills of the managers to make this approach last because releasing a DLC that still needed some work and passing that to your colleagues to fix the rest is not fair nor is it very economical.

    So far so good and only time will tell.
     
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  40. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    One only wonders if it's that boring why go to the trouble and effort to comment on it, you have effectively wasted more time by slapping a post on here than just hitting one button and leaving the thread entirely, the mind boggles.......
     
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  41. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I guess people can review the reviewers as much as the reviewers can review the game.
    Either that or he was so bored generally he thought he'd add to it
     
  42. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Secretly he just wanted to be apart of all the boring souls and board the boring hype train that obviously is this thread, but being such an action packed person couldn't be seen to be actively taking part in such non action packed discussions so just called it boring to be apart of the boring discussion but look like he didn't care for all his action packed mates.........
     
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  43. Trooper117

    Trooper117 Active Member

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    I'm that bored I'm falling asleep now... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
     
  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Unless, I am very much mistaken, Adam's team's remit is upgrading Preserved Collection routes, that is TSW2020 content ported over not future releases or those already released with/for TSW 2.

    It does seem that Adam's been subject to "mission creep," however; I get the impression that originally the idea was that his team would be handling upgrades to the Pr. Coll. like adding PIS boards, working grade crossings and skies, but that almost inevitably has grown into dealing with bug fixes at the same time (especially since it appears the porting process created a lot of bugs not present in 2020, most notoriously sounds).

    So, in short, I don't believe the existence of Adam's "TSW2020 route modernization team" has anything to do with new content or how it is released.
     
  45. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That is also true. ACC as well
     
  46. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Here we go again with the console bashing
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I see where your coming from but World Of Subways 4 has dynamic weather as well and dynamic weather which would also fall under random events has been requested multiple times. Not everybody may want it but you think there would be at least an option to have it like in other titles. If the lgv scenario has dynamic weather and the game runs fine on last gen and if other games that use the same engine has dynamic weather, then I see no reason why it can't be in the game
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
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  48. xblackwolf90

    xblackwolf90 Well-Known Member

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    Adam's team has done some work on Bakerloo, most notably fixing the speed limit being detected at the rear of the train rather than the front as well as the missing London landmarks. When those updates will be released has not been confirmed as yet.

    It might be that Adam's team did this as a one off and won't be looking at TSW2 routes again, but he has made reference to HMA 'not being passed over to his team yet', so maybe his team's scope is to change in the future.

    Certainly, continuing to release new routes with all of them being handed over to a team that is not expanding in size could cause future updates to bottleneck.
     
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  49. krustynuggets

    krustynuggets Well-Known Member

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    Us console users will never be seen as worthy to the small minority of elitist members of the so called master race, but at the same time I'm oh so happy to be the annoyance that makes their existence such a sad vengeful fate, just to show how pathetic it is to be snobbish over a sodding piece of hardware to enjoy the same hobby........
     
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  50. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like an inferiority complex to me....

    The truth is there is room for both. The issue arises when the developer wants parity across the board. In that case the lowest common denominator will always be the yardstick. I already see owners of new consoles getting annoyed at the limitations of the game caused by last-gen consoles.

    In my humble opinion the game should push the boundaries of technology, and there should be the ability to pare back the bells and whistles for older tech. It would appear that right now we have the opposite, where almost every aspect of the game is being dictated by last-gen console technology.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
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