How Many Times Do You Do The Pzb Dance?

Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Dec 30, 2021.

  1. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Just a question if I may please. Driving the RB31 today to Grosenheim. I pass a yellow signal within speed boundaries. As my cab passes the yellow signal I do the following;

    PG DN...PG DN (within a second of each other).

    I continue on to have the emergency brakes cut in. Am I doing something wrong? How do others do it?

    Do i really need to do this ....PG DN...PG DNPG DN...PG DNPG DN...PG DNPG DN...PG DNPG DN...PG DNPG DN...PG DN to avoid the brakes coming on?

    It subsequently did this on the next yellow where pressed the pg dn button 4 times, at 40kmh still under monitoring from last signal 1000m from Grosenheim itself.

    This was the 3rd of 3 services in the journey mode for that train.
    Thank you
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
  2. wcwood92

    wcwood92 Active Member

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    After acknowledging and getting the 1000 Hz light, you have to get down to 85 kph within (I believe) 23 seconds.
    That's for the passenger mode, which would apply to that service.

    For yellow signals it's best to keep decelerating all the way down to 60 kph. That's because you're approaching a red signal and the 500 Hz magnet is coming up.
    You have to be below 65 kph when you pass the 500 Hz, then you have 153 meters to get below 45 kph.

    If you over run the red you get a 2000 Hz magnet and an immediate emergency stop.

    Violating any of these rules results in an emergency brake.
    The steps of decreasing speed ensure that no matter what the driver screws up, the train can still stop itself before it crashes. That's the theory at least.

    You also have to acknowledge upcoming speed restrictions. Same rules for 1000 Hz applies.
    I've seen different patterns for different routes, but a good rule to start with is acknowledge anything 80 or below. (Or anything not green if you want to be super safe)

    Don't give up. It's really fun once you truly understand it. Matt has some great tutorial videos on YouTube
     
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  3. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree; driving a good service with PZB is the most enjoyable and engaging task in TSW2 for me. And I never would have anticipated that before I broke out of my North American bias and began exploring German routes.

    A few things to add:
    1) “Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.” You will likely learn the system one penalty stop at a time. Be patient on the learning curve.
    2) The actual acknowledgment of a magnet happens when your finger comes off the Pg Down button. Time that to happen just after you pass the magnet. I usually press and release one extra time just to be sure.
    3) There are a number of people here who are quite good at German safety systems and enthusiastic about helping. Don’t be afraid to ask.
    4) Matt’s tutorial is a great place to start.


    Edit: The RSN manual has a PZB introduction and a speed table:
    https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/ste...eg_Nord_Driver's_Manual_-_EN.pdf?t=1577184497
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
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  4. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Thanks gents. I’ve been all safety systems on and hud free for a year or so now but I was just scratching my head a bit earlier as to what I may have done. :cool:
     
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  5. redtrainz

    redtrainz Active Member

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    In addition to the technical aspect of PZB, the Talent 2 PZB buttons are really finicky. You have to press PG DN down completely and not just tap it to make sure the game registers it.
     
  6. bpbill96

    bpbill96 New Member

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    Lets say I want to move away from my UK route bias, which German route would you all recommend to start with? Extra bonus points if I can use Raildriver with it.
     
  7. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Riesa - Dresden is a good starter.
     
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  8. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Depends. If you just want to drive - any will do with Riesa-Dresden possibly having the best quality and variety. If you also want to learn PZB, I‘d advise RSN - the loco physics are starting to show their age, but the slow speeds of the route are perfect for getting accustomed to PZB.
     
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  9. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    ...or you wait for Dresden - Chemnitz. If DTG has implemented it well, there should be a lot of PZB action there. The route is considered very challenging, not least because of the tilting technology, which allows higher speeds and thus requires even more attention (correct operation of PZB!).

    Also without tilting technology, permanent attention is required due to frequent speed changes and uphill/downhill.
     
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  10. bpbill96

    bpbill96 New Member

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    Yes the idea of trying a German route will be to learn PZB etc. I'll start with RSN and see how I get on. If I can get a spare few hours I might even watch Matt's signalling tutorial.
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It's probably easier to learn PZB running freight, since you don't have to simultaneously and separately be processing station stops and timetable, while OTOH freight is more likely to get adverse signals to practice on.
     
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  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The lovely thing about PZB is it never tells you what you've done wrong, it just kills your train.
     
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  13. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I have decided to get cracking on learning German routes and PZB and picked MSB since it has a manual with the signals in it. This lets me have the manual on one monitor and the sim on the other so can refer to it as I see things. Have not attempted PZB yet, just learning the route and the locomotives.
     
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  14. redtrainz

    redtrainz Active Member

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  15. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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  16. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    The 185 and 146 are good locos for learning PZB; they display restricted speed limits on the dash. Have fun and let us know how it goes!
     
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  17. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    Maybe i know the problem. When you run to Grosenheim station, after passed the yellow signal there is a "6" boardsignal informing you to decrease your speed from 100 to 60. You need to acknowledge it too instead you are under the pzb restriction yet.
     
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  18. Lightspeed

    Lightspeed Active Member

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    Those GPA magnets always catch me out when doing a service from Dresden-Grosenheim. As I’m heading towards Coswig, my train gets diverted to the left of the avoiding line. I acknowledge the PZB signals, slow down in accordance and still get stopped. I must have missed out on a speed restriction on the way. Ah well!
     
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  19. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    That area is a bit different because there are HL type signals that works a bit different. If i remember well there are no speed reduction to acknowledge. I need to try a service again
     
  20. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    The speed constraints you were told about early in this thread are important, acknowledgement isn't enough, you need to act as well pretty quickly when you need to.

    I would suggest that you press and hold PgDn momentarily rather than just tapping it - the game seems to look for a long keypress - I've had much better success doing it this way.

    Paul
     
  21. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    It is times like this, learning a new route, signals and safety systems, that really, to me, presses home the total lack of a game save that works. I would want to be saving frequently to be able to go back and replay where I went wrong and triggered PZB. It is repeating something that really helps one to learn it.
     
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  22. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I usually get out of the cab and walk back to see what I missed and usually its a magnet :). Well, ok its nearly always a magnet or a speed detector.

    If PZB killed you, as in SPAD out of the game then you can reload at last checkpoint - this seems to work quite reliably.

    Paul
     
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  23. mattchester#9176

    mattchester#9176 Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to thank you for this suggestion. Been trying to learn PZB for a while and this gave me the guts to give it a run (I was waiting for the PZB fix for RT before giving it a try). Only one mistake on an end to end to end freight run, pretty damned happy with that!

    Still lots to learn though, not ready for the complexity of passengers or Sifa on top of PZB yet.
     
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  24. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    About the PZB issue the key is that you need to press and hold the ack button for half a second or so. A quick press usually does not trigger the system ack, even if you press it 30 times. Once you release it the 1000Hz should be lit and you should ear the sound. If it´s not lit then you didn´t acknowledge it properly and you need to repeat the pressing. I normally let the signal pass the cab side window to be sure the train has passed the magnet position and then press the ack.

    Riesa-Dresden is one of the most challenging places to test your skills. In particular the "There and back" scenario shows many of the aspects of the system, including many frequent cases where the restrictive modes become active after 1000Hz and 500Hz, forcing you to respect the additional 25km/h and 45km/h limits. I just played it and enjoyed a lot.

    Cheers
     
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  25. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Well done and I‘m glad my suggestion was of use to you. Be aware that there are quite a few signaling and PZB issues/inaccuracies on RT if/when you do give it a try. I wish you good luck on your journey to master PZB :)
     
  26. mattchester#9176

    mattchester#9176 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, will bear that in mind.

    I've got most of the German content so thought it made sense to work through it in order while learning PZB but will probably stick with RSN for now.
     
  27. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I am getting along using the MSB as my training route as well as sticking to freight trains for now. Ran the route several times prior to using PZB to get to know the signals, had the route manual open on my second monitor. Then did my first run with PZB on and got hit about 6 minutes in with a 'M' followed by a 'G' with the 1000 hz indicator on. As far as I could see I had not passed a signal, a reduced speed indicator or even a lone magnet. Went back and did the run again and this time went by that point without issue and finished the run with only an over speed happening which is easily recovered from. Will do more today, again using freight trains since I can focus on learning PZB without having to worry about stopping. When you get it so you can run the scenario without hitches it is fun.
     
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  28. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I don't understand your terminology. 'M'? 'G'? What do u mean?
     
  29. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    These were letters that showed up on the HUD and loco displays.
     
  30. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Which loco did you use? (and which service)?

    Was it a red, flashing "G"? This means that your maximum speed has been exceeded and can lead to an emergency braking. If the red "G" flashes together with the 1000Hz light, it means that the speed has been exceeded in PZB fault mode (PZB switched off) = "PZB Störbetrieb". But I am not even sure if this is implemented in the TSW.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
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  31. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I used the BR185.2 driving DB86111 service. Again this happened about 6 minutes into the run and the second time I ran it did not get the issue and was driving exactly the same way.
     
  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    What MAY have happened is that you were trying to run at line speed, with your train in PZB Mode M (possibly U, but I believe the game defaults all freights to M). You can't do that! Your Vmax under Mode M is 120 km/h, and if you try to run at more than that, PZB will smack you down. The posted speed limit is for passenger/Mode O
     
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  33. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I'll have a look tonight. I can't figure out what to do with the "M". Otherwise, it might have been an emergency stop for speeding (see my last post - I've updated it).
     
  34. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Does TSW show the Mode M with "M"? I always thought it was displayed with "70" and "U", "M" and "O" is only used at switches (PZB setup).
     
  35. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I know it wasn't speeding since the limit at that point was, I believe, 110 Km/h and I had the AFB set to 85, which is the speed I tend to run at while I am learning. Gives me more time to react to an upcoming signal. Actually, what I see with mode M on the display is 55. The MSB manual is very good with PZB basics so I have that open, as noted above, while driving.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
  36. Choo choo

    Choo choo Active Member

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    This is because there is a flashing green light in that part of the track which means "slow down to 100 kph before the next signal" in HL signalling.



    Check the above video at 17:30
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
  37. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    That's strange.

    Mode U = PZB 55
    Mode M = PZB 70
    Mode O = PZB 85

    So Mode M is already wrong in connection with PZB 55. Something can't be right.

    The following maximum speeds apply:

    Mode U: 105 km/h
    Mode M: 125 km/h
    Mode O: 165 km/h

    From the following speeds, the train brakes automatically:

    Mode U: 109 km/h
    Mode M: 129 km/h
    Mode O: 169 km/h
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
  38. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I had noted that in that route manual, there is a great chart of each mode and what you can do as far as speed in both normal and restrictive modes. I will fire up TSW and get a picture of the display for you.
     
  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I'm not even aware of an "M" display anywhere in the cab. "G", yes, but not an "M."

    Could it be that you had not released from launch monitoring and it nailed you as you passed 45?
     
  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    With the caveat that per DB regulations, you need to stay 5 km/h below PZB maximums (this is to allow for miscalibrations).
     
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  41. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    The first image is prior to starting, the second is while in start monitoring and the third one is running after start monitoring is over. I verified that the PZB was set in mode M.
     

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  42. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Nope the numbers were steady on the HUD not flashing back and forth when this happened. That was my initial thought since the first thing I saw an M.
     
  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Something is wrong here. In Mode M the display should be 70, not 55.

    (NB: you can only switch PZB modes with PZB turned off; any change to the selector switch while the system is on doesn't register).
     
  44. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Well now, this is an older route, has a bug been found in the set up? Back I go and play a bit more with that mode switch. It was set, by default, on scenario start to mode M.
     
  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a bug then. The dashboard should not be reading 55!
     
  46. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Well, it seems to be a set up issue since this time I moved the switch through each position and took a shot of the result. Seems even though the switch is set in mode M on start it is really in mode U. So you can't trust what you see when you check that switch. The first shot is mode O, the second mode M and the third mode U after having moved the switch. Thanks for getting me to verify the settings. This exercise is really helping me understand and use PZB.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
  47. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    I can confirm this, I have just tried it out. The switch does not change anything, the service is and remains in U mode (55). Not so nice when you want to learn how it works and then get confused by little errors.

    Have fun with the PZB!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
  48. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Actually, moving the switch prior to turning on PZB does change the mode. I just did it on a run it set up properly when PZB was turned on and I had the 70 on the displays both loco and HUD.
     
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  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    How heavy is that train? It could be that it's supposed to be in U.
     
  50. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    yes in the implementation we have, if you change mode you need to toggle PZB off and on again for it to take effect, no idea why that is or if it's accurate - but it's how it works.

    Matt.
     
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