How Many Times Do You Do The Pzb Dance?

Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Dec 30, 2021.

  1. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't think that's accurate. It is basically a big no-no when systems are designed in such a way that the position of controls can deviate from their control indications. This leads to wrong assumptions and ultimately to accidents.

    But thank God we are only in the simulator... :cool:

    Anyway, thanks Matt. Good to know.
     
  2. lux#4689

    lux#4689 Active Member

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    I had several times a similar problem, that the switch was in position M, but when switching PZB on, it was in fact in mode U. Changing the switch first to position O or U and then back to M and then only switching PZB on was fixing it for me.
    So as some trains are supposed to spawn in mode U, it might be, that these are in the system in mode U, but the switch does not correctly show that?
    I can't remember an example of it, if I get some time in the next few days, I will try to find such an example.
     
  3. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it's accurate, because the driver is not permitted ever to switch PZB off.
     
  4. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    I think on the newer locos (eg the BR 185.5 and the BR 143 on DRA) you don't need to toggle the PZB-switch. It suffices to set the reverser to "Off" and then "Forward" again for a change of PZB-mode to take effect.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2022
  5. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    I think that here there is something wrong and probably a missunderstand. I usually drive german routes in game and e every train i see or spawn is always the same. Passenger in pzb type O and freight on pzb type M. Only the 2 shunter locos spawn with the pzb type U because they only have this configuration. (I haven't the G6 at the moment, but i think it is the same). Also i change the pzb mode before turn it on and never seen a thing like this. I will try this service in my morning but i think this isn't a bug.
     
  6. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    Just a tip, a very good section to learn the basic pzb information is on MSB dlc. Just try every freight services, that go from aschaffenburg to laufach (sorry for german city name) and than try it again and again. In this area you will try a lot of things, restriction and diverging for most. Than when you will star with passengers one, do aschaffenburg - heighenbruken services. They are shotr and cover the most part of pzb fuctionality. For more info i'm here to help
     
  7. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    By the way... even professionals make mistakes. In this video, the driver forgets that he was still under 500Hz influence (because the departure signal was at stop before) and accelerates to over 25 km/h... You can imagine what happens then... :cool:

     
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  8. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    I think I remember it was 1100 tones.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2022
  9. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, that is exactly the route I am using for my learning especially since it does have a good manual with it. Currently I am running the freight trains under PZB and doing ok. Learned the signal system first and once felt comfortable with that started the PZB.
     
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  10. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    I am glad to hear it is going well. When you feel confident with PZB, give this freight run a try:
    DB 88127 at 15:41
    Have a finger poised for the PZB button . . . or a salute to complex safety systems, as appropriate :love:
     
  11. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    As I delve deeper into this, I have just read the post by cwf.green on PZB setting in freight trains and from this I find myself thinking that this dance is not a nice simple waltz but a very complicated tango. Now I see that you need to check the switch next to the mode selector which is default to ep/el and should be off as well as going back to the wagons to move, as necessary, the setting there to p or g. All of this based on calculations from this table he presents which is in German, yikes. I guess, for simplicity, one could ignore everything but the mode switch which is roughly based on train weight.
     
  12. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    A good recap of that could be, over 1.300-1400t set the pzb in U. Under 1300-1200 set it on M. It depends from which loco is on the head. Back to the signal and pzb, the key is to learn what you are doing and why you need to do X action in Y moment. Try to not be a mech. This happen when you repeat always the same line becuase you know 'where i need to acknowledge" than if you change the route, you feel like a new world. It js easier than it seems. Just need some practice. The general rule is always the same. Everything different from clear "green" need to be acknowledge.
     
  13. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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  14. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's true with the new upgraded DRA rolling stock. The older MSB/RSN wagons don't actually model brake modes (in fact the mode handles on the wagons are nonfunctional).
     
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  15. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Sharon E I have no idea where I got this, but I find this one pager really helpful and always have it in front of me when driving with PZB. No author in the doc to credit unfortunately.

    Paul
     

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  16. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you can really break it down to such simple statements - at least in TSW2. I used to see it as far too complicated too. In the meantime, I concentrate on the following rules:

    Anmerkung auf Deutsch: jeder der sich auskennt, kriegt das kalte Grausen bei meiner folgenden Systematik - ich weiss! - die ist unvollständig, halbrichtig und irrsinnig vereinfacht und verallgemeinert. Der Sinn ist wirklich nur, den englisch-sprachigen Kollegen ein Fahren mit dem vereinfachten TSW-PZB zu ermöglichen.

    Signals
    1. ALWAYS* acknowledge all signals that are not green or flashing green.
    2. When the 1000Hz-light is on, reduce the speed as fast as possible** to maximum 85 / 70 / 55 (depending on the PZB-mode) - often I start braking already when I see the yellow signal from a distance.
    3. When you reach 85 / 70 / 55, you can slow down further if necessary to the speed that the signal has signalled (if it has signalled a speed). The time limit only applies to reaching 85 / 70 / 55.
    4. When the 500Hz light comes on, reduce speed as quickly as possible** to 25 and get ready to stop at the next signal.
    Speed signs
    1. ALWAYS* acknowledge all black/yellow speed signs (impending speed change) that show 90 km/h (9) or less
    2. Always make signalled speed changes quickly** and maintain speeds! If you already have the required speed, you do not need to brake, of course - but...
    3. ...Nasty trap: for example a 90km/h sign with a 1000Hz magnet means that you first have to brake to 85 / 70 / 55!!!!! You can only accelerate to 90km/h again when all restrictions are removed and nothing is flashing anymore. This sounds illogical at first, but here again: don't THINK, but DO. 1000Hz influence means first and foremost a maximum of 85 / 70 / 55 - even if the speed sign says 90!!!! You may avoid this nastiness - see the following post #67!
    Departure and / or Acceleration
    1. When starting to drive: Alternate flashing of the 70/85 lights means 45 km/h limit.
    2. When starting to drive: An active 500Hz magnet (RED LIGHT!) means 25 km/h limit. EVEN IF THE SIGNAL IN FRONT OF YOU SHOWS GREEN LIGHT!
    3. When accelerating: does the 50 / 70 / 85 light flash even though the yellow 1000Hz or the red 500Hz light is no longer lit?? Then do not exceed this speed (50 / 70 / 85) until the flashing stops. Your still under restriction.
    4. In general: when a restriction (e.g. 500Hz magnet) is removed, don't just go full throttle. Look at the PZB to see if there are any other restrictions (see point 3) and comply with them!

    And as a matter of principle: pay attention to the maximum speeds that result from the PZB mode (U, M, O) - see Post #37.

    If you have internalised these points, you can drive PZB quite relaxed and nothing bad will ever happen again.


    * ALWAYS means ALWAYS. Do not think. Do. Even if you have already reached the required target speed or are slower. The system doesn't care how fast you are. The system wants confirmation that you are aware of the sign / signal - even if you are driving at walking speed.

    ** As fast or as quickly as possible means: no emergency braking! Brake quickly, but not so that the passengers are all in the driver's cab afterwards.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
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  17. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    Very true. But you might want to add that you can dodge this whole procedure on signs that announce a reduction to 80 km/h ("8") or 90 ("9") by not travelling more than 15 km/h over the announced speed at the moment you pass the announcing sign.
    So if you know you are appoaching a sign that announces "8" (or "9"), you can slow down below 95 km/h (or 105 km/h) before passing the sign (or the magnet attached to the sign, to be exact). The magnet won't initiate the PZB program then and you can safely slow down to 80 km/h (or 90 km/h) until you hit the definite speed reduction sign. Saves you a lot of trouble.
    Only works with "8" and "9" signs, though. Magnets on signs announcing "7" or lower will always be active and need acknowledging, even if you are already travelling slow. Signs announcing "10" or higher don't need to be acknowledged (just don't let the GPA magnets catch you).
    upload_2022-1-6_13-17-22.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
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  18. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Great! Didnt know that, thank you. Makes a lot of sense, especially for freight trains in U and M. Is this also implemented in TSW?
     
  19. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Well-Known Member

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    It is. I can't vouch for all routes, but as far as I encountered signs of that kind, it was.
    For example there is one (otherwise very annoying) sign announcing a "8" restriction at hectometer 113.4 (just after Dresden-Pieschen station) when you are driving your freight trains into Dresden. Have a try, it should work!
     
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  20. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Awesome. I wouldn't have thought that DTG would implement such subtleties.

    I may even have stumbled across it unknowingly before. I usually reduce my speed beforehand in order to make the braking curve and then occasionally the 1000Hz magnet did not become sharp when I ran over such signs. I always thought DTG hadn't implemented the magnet, but maybe I was just within the +15 km/h limit - so it might not have been a bug but a feature!
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
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  21. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, this one caught me yesterday while driving MSB, missed that speed sign and bang, brakes on and the system hollering at me.​
     
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  22. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    The speed signs are sometimes difficult to see. For new or unfamiliar routes, I always leave the HUD on first. About 1,000m before a speed change, the sign has to come up, so I always know when I have to look out harder...
     
  23. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    One question, does this happen at the yellow warning sign of an impending speed change or at the white, start here, sign.
     
  24. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    At the yellow one.
     
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  25. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Thank you
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Flüstern hinter unserem Rücken? ;)
     
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  27. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    More like a seizure warning for the German speakers familiar with PZB :D
     
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  28. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Tatsächlich sind sie komplett gut Anweisungen für die TSW-PZB in jeder Sprache.
     
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  29. joerg.lange

    joerg.lange Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys. ;)

    I've simplified everything and left out a lot, it's really only aimed at getting to grips with it in TSW (unfortunately, many good PZB tutorials are in German only). I have made this disclaimer so that no German train driver who might read it kicks me... It says something like this: I know that this is all simplified and incomplete, that's the whole point so that one can quickly get to grips with it. Please don't hurt me.
     
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  30. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Which section of Main Spessart Bahn is it? if playing towards Frankfurt Am Main Hbf (SNCB Emma SNCF Simone Herault French language announcement Francfort Sur Le Main Gare Centrale) or Flughafen Frankfurt its the portion around Aschaffenburg Hbf & Spessart Rampe these are 2000hz Indusi.
     
  31. JustWentSouth

    JustWentSouth Well-Known Member

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    A bit of a thread bump, but I was curious about how your German safety system experience is going now that you are several weeks into it. Are you hooked? Frustrated? HUD less? What routes and locos have you tried?

    I hope you are enjoying it!
     
  32. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Hud Off pzb and sofa is the norm for me.
    Matt mentioned something interesting in a stream the other day. Watch the physical button in cab ad you press on keyboard. I would tap pzb but with some locos the button doesn't fully engage to a tap so you need to hold for a second or so as you pass signal or hot magnet . Rarely get any problems with it now
     
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