Impact Of Sbb's Licensing Changes On Swiss Content In Train Sim World

Hi everyone,
I wanted to bring up an important issue that could affect Swiss content in Train Sim World. Recently, SBB has changed its licensing agreements with developers for train simulator games, imposing strict limitations. Developers are now required to strip back functionality in their models related to Swiss railways, meaning features like SIFA, PZB, and functioning information screens are no longer allowed.
This change has already impacted developers like ChrisTrains and TrainWorx, and it could potentially affect future Swiss content from other developers, including Rivet Games. The new SBB licensing seems aimed at ensuring that no one can fully learn how to operate a train on the Swiss network purely through a simulation.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Do you think this will have a significant impact on Swiss content in TSW?

 

the MTA curse has begun to spread...

 

We still have Milka chocolate, so it's not a total loss.

 

If this is only SBB, then developers can still fully model RhB, BLS and other independent companies I would think. Now whether it would limit, let's say BLS or SOB, operating on SBB trackage.

 

Confused why SBB is concerned enough to make this change, from TSW alone I doubt someone could get a single train moving since most of the start-up or safety systems/procedures aren’t fully implemented.

I guess it pushes potential Swiss routes down the list although, if it’s only SBB trains then cross-border DB services may still have their safety features. Either way it’s a weird decision since both systems are already included in German/Austrian routes, may also not be long for ETCS to be properly implemented.

 

That doesn't sound particularly good for the Future of all Train Simulation. But I can't imagine that it's because they want to prevent unauthorized people from driving their Trains.

 

That’s a good point. As far as I know, the changes only apply to SBB-specific content, so developers should still be able to fully model independent companies like RhB and BLS. However, it’s unclear how these restrictions might impact scenarios or routes where BLS or SOB trains operate on SBB tracks.It’s definitely something worth keeping an eye on, especially if it could affect the accuracy or features of those models when interacting with the SBB network. Hopefully, developers will clarify how these new licensing rules might influence future content.

 

Yeah, it's pretty odd. TSW already doesn’t give you full control over start-up or safety systems, so I’m not sure why SBB is so concerned. It’s strange that SBB wants to remove features like SIFA and PZB, especially when other rail operators don’t seem to have an issue with them.Cross-border DB trains keeping their safety systems while SBB trains lose them would be inconsistent. This could definitely make Swiss routes less appealing to develop. It’ll be interesting to see how this affects future content.

 

I hope this is not due to paranoia at Swiss Railways due to the recent release of the Expert Level DB101.
I expect someone might of shown them a Utube video of the DB101 and how to disable the safety systems using MCB's and Valves in the engine room.
Mike.

 

Not only TSW is affected, TS 3rd party ChrisTrains also announced that their new Stadler GTW SBB version will not feature safety systems and they are not allowed to depict realistic info screens (and remember the Luzern-Sursee patch removing the door indicator lights?)

So basically forget anything SBB related in simulations. No matter how stupid this seems, it's their decision and not subject to negotiations of any kind.

 

Do you have any source to this claim? The SBB did not use PZB or Sifa so i have no clue where this statement comes from.....
SBB uses a part of ZUB and ETCS.... So PZB is not use and SIFA is a thing that related to German/Austria Trains...

 

So long as it's not applied retrospectively to what we've already got.

SBB not a huge loss though it would have been nice to have got the Gotthard line in TSW at some point (the old alignment, not the base tunnel). Would be a bigger issue if DB suddenly turned round and got fussy about it, though I assume they signed off on the 101 given some of their own staff acted as consultants?

 

Source: ChrisTrains facebook page, Aug 12 2024, 18:00

Nu de Stadler GTW mid-life update bijna uitkomt, moet ik jullie wat verdrietig nieuws vertellen. Je hebt hier misschien al over gelezen in de TSC community, maar SBB heeft onlangs alle licentieovereenkomsten met ontwikkelaars van modellen voor alle treinsimulatorspellen gewijzigd. Ik weet niet of iemand echt weet wat er is gebeurd waardoor ze dit hebben gedaan, maar de korte versie is dit: om legaal te blijven met mijn SBB-licentie, mag ik nu niets anders dan de meest basale rijfuncties opnemen in een model dat iets te maken heeft met Zwitserse spoorwegmaatschappijen. Dit betekent onder andere geen SIFA en geen PZB. Dit heeft niet alleen gevolgen voor mij. Het heeft al gevolgen gehad voor TrainWorx van Paul Mersel en zal ook gevolgen hebben voor alle Zwitserse gamecontent van andere ontwikkelaars (bijvoorbeeld Rivet Games) als dat nog niet is gebeurd. Wat dit betekent voor de GTW-update is dat de Thurbo GTW SIFA en PZB in deze release en alle toekomstige releases zal hebben uitgeschakeld, totdat SBB hun standpunt heroverweegt.
Dit heeft niets te maken met het gebruik van het merk SBB, en SBB heeft geen openbare verklaring afgelegd over de reden waarom ze deze beslissing hebben genomen. Maar de formulering van de nieuwe licentieovereenkomst heeft minder te maken met specifieke systemen in de trein, en meer met een algemene vereiste dat iemand niet kan leren hoe hij een trein op het Zwitserse netwerk volledig kan starten en bedienen, alleen door middel van een simulatiespel. Ze vereisen specifiek dat geen enkele informatiescherm nauwkeurig of functioneel is (in termen van menu's, knoppen, enz.), en dat alleen accelereren en remmen door de spelers is toegestaan. Verder ga ik niet speculeren over de redenen waarom ze deze beslissingen hebben genomen.
Realistisch gezien had ik maar twee opties. Ik zou kunnen voldoen aan de bijgewerkte SBB-vereisten, of ik zou de Thurbo GTW volledig uit het pakket kunnen verwijderen. Hoewel ik begrijp dat dit teleurstellend is voor Zwitserse treinliefhebbers, kan ik hier niets aan doen en geen enkel aantal opmerkingen, e-mails of supporttickets zal ertoe leiden dat ik deze functies in het model opnieuw activeer. Ik moet voldoen aan de voorwaarden van mijn SBB-licentieovereenkomst, anders kan ik juridische stappen verwachten.
Alle andere versies van de GTW in het pakket blijven onaangetast.


As the Stadler GTW mid-life update is now very close to release, I have to pass on some sad news. You may have read about this elsewhere in the TSC community, but recently SBB modified all the license agreements with developers of models for all train simulator games. I don’t know if anyone really knows what happened to cause them to do this, but the short version is this: for me to remain legal with my SBB license, I am now forbidden from including anything other than than the most basic driving functions, in and model that has anything to do with Swiss rail operators. This means no SIFA and no PZB, among other things. This does not just affect me. It has already affected Paul Mersel's TrainWorx, and is also going to affect all Swiss game content from other developers (for example Rivet Games) if it hasn't already. What this means for the GTW update is that the Thurbo GTW will have SIFA and PZB disabled in this release, and all future releases, until SBB reconsiders their position.
This isn't anything to do with the use of the SBB brand, and SBB haven't made any public statement as to why they have made this decision. But the wording of the new license agreement has less to do with specific systems in the train, and more to do with a general requirement that someone cannot learn how to fully start and operate any train on the Swiss network, simply from a simulation game. Specifically they require that no information screens are accurate or functional (in terms of menus, buttons etc), and that only accelerating and braking be allowed by the players. Further than that, I'm not going to speculate the reasons why they have made these decisions.
Realistically I only had two options. I could either comply with the updated SBB requirements, or I could remove the Thurbo GTW from the pack completely. While I understand this is disappointing to Swiss rail enthusiasts, there is nothing I can do about this, and no amount of comments, emails or support tickets will result in me re-activating these functions in the model. I have to comply with the terms of my SBB licensing agreement, or I could face legal action.
All other versions of the GTW in the pack remain unaffected.
https://www.christrains.com/helpdesk/knowledgebase.php...

 

Strange.... They did not have any track thats using PZB and SIFA is not the voice but more a beep sound. Further more ZUB is nothing more than to confirm the signal ahead. ETCS is not a Swiss system they did not have the right to say that forbidden its an EU system....

 

Oooh now i understand.... This whole story goes about Stadler trains.... Thats not a big deal DTG does not have this licence if i'm right. Trains that did not build by stadler are not part of the deal.....

 

It affects ALL SBB related trains.

For TS players this will probably mean avoiding Steam updates to existing SBB content (it happened before, logo removal), and redirect these updates to dummy folders.

 

Yeah add it later via separate download (MOD)

 

No, it´s about SBB in general. Chris Trains Stadler revamp is affected by it and I just read on Railsim that S-Bahn Zentralschweiz will be getting a very unpleasent "update" also.
Rhb does not seem to be affected. The only swiss routes that I personaly find interesteting. But for all Train Sim Franchises and lovers of Swiss mainlines this is very, very bad news and it makes have great worry, that other railway companies might follow.

 

Ah okay its more complicated that it seems like i guess.... But i don't understand the PZB and SIFA.... The story is strange they did use that so that part comes to Stadler products i guess....

 

It would be comical but I wouldn't be at all surprised if deutsche bahn implemented very harsh restrictions on licensing content for tsw, it still surprises me that they are as liberal as they are (like for example allowing something like BR 101 Expert to exist)

 

We are just having a great discussion over on Railsim about this and some of the payware creators, who are affected, are sharing information. It´s worse than we thought: Swiss trains on any simulator are only allowed to accelerate and brake from now on. If other companies follow this ludacris precendent, train simulators are done for good!

I also highly doubt that anyone is getting any MONEY back for getting content downgraded in this outrageous manner. This is BAD.

 

damn, they have the chance to update the route to actually fix what's wrong with it but instead they'll probably remove the one feature that set it apart from what we have already. make it make sense

 

This GTW thing is a train that did not have any SBB brandings right, The SBB has no GTW in service so far i know? So if its the case i did not get the story there...... And also that PZB and SIFA is also a big question mark here.....

Edit i mean non electric GTW

 

RIP

 

What's stopping Rivet from simply removing the SBB logo? An unlicensed Train is still better than a Toy with fancy Logo in my Opinion.

 

Just to get this straight from a customers view. SBB gets cash for licenses from payware devolpers, payware devolpers make content and sell it to us. After a while, train company decides, it only wants its trains on simulators to accelerate and break and enforces DTG, Rivet and others to downgrade buyers content via Steam updates. So, does SBB give money back to DTG/Rivet, so can refund customers? Or do they just keep all the cash from original license while downgrading innocent customers? This sounds very shady to me!

 

Its not that black or white.... Licensing is game! So if i looked to SCS Software they have give Short sneakpeak in this world earlier and its way of trust and time. If you get that they are very pleased and willing to bring an open window to get the licence. But yeah they are not a fan of supporting Games like this. Not now not earlier on.... How many SBB products are available for TSC? Not that much and maybe thats the result of this behaviour of the SBB

 

GTW is operated by Thurbo, which is owned by SBB, Thurbo trains even have SBB logos on the side.

 

Yeah thats explaining a little... Chris has build a Subversion of his Dutch Electric GTW

 

It's probably cheaper to change the language of a license agreement than retrofitting many trains to properly secure them from misuse by members of the public.

 

Strange contrast with LIRR who insisted that safety systems are fully on all the time and just removed a couple of procedures for starting the train.

So are SBB also planning to go after all the veteran MSTS and Trainz content out there too, maybe even BVE? Much of the MSTS content probably orphaned or abandoned by the original author scattered around the web on archive sites or similar. There is certainly a bit of SBB stuff in Trainz, though last time I tried running a main line electric the cab was aliased to the UK Class 47 complete with AWS sunflower, so maybe not quite in the same league.

As noted if DTG or Rivet want to create SBB routes then model the terrain but switch the location to Germany or Austria, a bit like the Seebergbahn in TSC which actually used the geography of the BLS around Spiez.

Well so long as they don’t insist on dumbing down the movement physics, TBH due to the flawed implementation of ECTS, on our one little stump of a SBB route in TSW - Luzern to Sursee - I never bother switching it on anyway.

 

Take the logo off and shove two fingers up at them.

How totally ridiculous.

 

Unfortunate decision, and will it spread to the other licensees?

All the more a plea for DTG to remove those collectibles that require virtual tresspassing onto railroad property. There really is no need to put licensees on the edge with such a silly game element, unworthy of 'the most realistic simulation experience' DTG advertises.
To keep the thumbstick players happy, make them collect trash from the platform and garbage in the station's surroundings, remove graffiti etc.

I doubt a licensee can retroactively demand players to remove a certain piece of rolling stock, but forcing 'dumbing down' updates through Steam is another matter.

 

It’s all very very strange, and this weirdness over licensing seems to be almost entirely confined to the railway industry. You can buy manual’s for these trains online, you can watch YouTube videos of cab setups etc…I’d hazard a guess they’d be much more use to someone with malicious intent than TSW is. Either way, what do they think is going to happen?

It sounds much more like over-zealous legal departments flexing their muscles, the same disease that is ruining the world. The legal sphere seems to have (intentionally?) completely lost the ability to risk assess anything, so the easiest thing to do is just come down on everything with the prospect of legal action should people dare not comply. In an entirely unrelated but convenient coincidence, they get paid handsomely whenever this happens. Very lucky that. The more cynical amongst us might even say it’s intentional, but surely not…

 

A driver wouldn’t collect trash or remove graffiti either, but I suppose whatever floats your boat, from a thumb stick warrior, who also has a pc

 

Where the unfortunate ‘gamey’ elements are detracting from the simulation side of the product.

 

I'm just wondering if DTG and other Developers still have to pay the same Price for the License.

 

SBB have every right to do this, yes, but the PIS being banned is a bit random?

"Hmm, today I will hijack a train, but I will make sure everyone knows where we're going first!"

 

Well, to re-iterate, I would personally rather they just removed the logos than change a single thing about any trains or routes going forward, existing or future.

These licensing tantrums are tedious. It’s not the first time it’s happened, and it won’t be the last.

 

I agree, remove the logos and have functional trains.

Unfortunately this will continue to happen as long as 'train enthusiasts' continue to access out-of-bounds areas in real life. In the UK there are several social media accounts which film themselves accessing train cabs and playing with the controls.
I would imagine similar people exist in Switzerland and its lead to tighter security measures being enforced. I know the British Transport Police are currently investigating the UK channels so maybe tighter restrictions will come for us too.

 

It's nothing new unfortunately. Union Pacific were massively opposed to anything sim related at one point, then suddenly did a 180. Then there was BNSF with their US only stance for a while. Now it seems, licence for logos fine but don't expect any further access for research.

Hopefully still plenty of cooperative railway organisations out there, which is why DTG need to start spreading their wings a bit further - South America, the accessible parts of Asia, Australia etc. Foster amity with heritage railways who may look more favourably on licencing restrictions.

 

I guess we’ll have to wait for an official statement from DTG about how this actually affects licensing for content and the content itself in TSW. I’ve already seen some wild talk about it and some cast iron facts might serve us well. I’m not sure if just removing the branding is an automatic fix-all solution as DTG would likely not want to burn any bridges with their partners and there may be other unknown factors that have led to the change in licensing. At present we can only wait for something more informative from DTG.

 

Well think it's fair to say after the LIRR business that DTG always come down on the side of compliance. However it does beg the question that those of us who bought add ons before new restrictions are imposed should continue to enjoy as is and not be forced onto the updated version.

 

It’s just amazing to me that a licensor can just decide sometime after the point of sale to many customers, that they are going to retroactively force change the agreement… and therefore massively force the content to be altered without any reimbursement to the customer.

At least LIRR’s demands were up front. SBB did a rug pull.

As far as just pulling the logo. That probably won’t work for something that is very clearly a SBB train on very clearly a Swiss Railway operated on by SBB.

If DB did this I would never connect to the internet again and just keep enjoying my content.

 

Welp this makes me feel a heck of a lot better. Stinks about SBB, but who needs ‘em anyway. Thanks Matt.

 

I also want to add one note: Like most European countries, the SBB is a large group that is separated into 3 main divisions and 8 groups. The infrastructure and passenger divisions are separated and almost independent from one another. It is not because the trackage is owned by the SBB that those changes regarding the passenger services will affect if other operators could be made. It would very likely have to come from an objection from SBB Infra. The rules of modelling trackage are probably not the same but this needs research.

 

I was assuming it meants the info screens like the drivers advice screens rather than the passenger ones.

 

What else could it be, other than a security related concern?