In The Continued Evolution Of Tsw How Does Dtg Address This (if At All?): Older Routes Vs New Locos

Overall, perhaps the biggest single long-term frustration with TSW for me personally is that, for the most part, many older routes hardly ever get updated to include newer, more adequate rolling stock DLC over time. But, I hear you ask, why should DTG even bother with older content from years ago and they should just focus on TSW 4 and future content...?

Well that's all very well but I'd counter-argue that TSW is a simulator, which in turn means realism. Thus, it gets incredibly frustrating when you get to the point in TSW's evolution when you now have a plethora of suitable and applicable rolling stock DLC (see below for examples) which could be added to many older routes for realism, as well as freshness, new gameplay and to make busier, yet aren't. I understand that from a developer's perspective updating older timetables is a very, very time-consuming process, however if DTG want an authentic sim, then they should seriously consider such. After all, I certainly would prefer to see some legendary older routes - RSN just one great example - get a timetable update to incorporate more loco DLC instead of new underwhelming and/or empty, dull routes every once in a while.

And, on this continued subject, why does it always have to be a new route? It would be nice to see more older routes get a timetable/loco DLC update while new content can still come via lots of brand-new loco DLC too. TSW already has so many iconic routes which are in vital need of more locos and freshness; with Maintalbahn (as well as Wurzburg already) MSB is surely a logical choice for an update - even more so considering Aschaffenburg now has such AI traffic from Maintalbahn.

There are multiple locos that now exist which are realistic for many existing older routes. This is a non-exhaustible list with some examples, but feel free to add any more route/loco combinations:
- Class 700 for BML
- Pacer for TVL
- Missing ICE services for HRR, RRO, MSB, or more specifically for HMA (Munich-Augsburg) completely missing the iconic ICE 1 as well as the 101 etc
- Azuma for Edinburgh-Glasgow
- Metrolink F125 for Cajon Pass (San Bernardino)
- RHTT for several older UK routes
- ECW's Brighton lacking GX 387s and newer 377
- Extra AI traffic in general to make some of the older, emptier routes more busier; a great example here is the likes of Darlington from TVL, or Manchester Victoria from NTP which are in vast need of AI traffic.

All pictures taken by me

Class 700/0 at Three Bridges. The 8-car /0 does serve the BML in real life, albeit considerably less than the 12-car /1. But, why can't this route in TSW at least get a few /0 services, surely much better than nothing at all?

While the Azuma features in ECML: Peterborough-Doncaster, its absence from the Edinburgh-Glasgow route at Waverley is notable

Several German TSW routes completely lack any ICE services which is highly unrealistic

The Munich-Augsburg route in TSW lacks any DB BR 101 or ICE 1 traffic

Some TSW routes like SEHS Extended are almost perfect in terms of rolling stock, busyness and realism. Why obviously we can't expect every route to be like this, it would be nice to have some older routes be at least more like this instead

In fairness to DTG, there have been some routes that have been given a well-deserved update, whether from Hamburg-Lubeck to make Hamburg Hbf incredibly busy, Rapit Transit, SKA which is currently getting a timetable update and so on. The result is that you now have much better routes that have a lot of freshness and brand-new gameplay - which more routes need!

Moreover, then you also have another factor which could generate some great new DLC too. If DTG already has a specific TOC licence, and that TOC also operates several locos that exist in TSW, a great example being Northern and the Class 150 and 158. Then, is it possible to therefore have a Northern Class 150 and/or 158 DLC, which in turn could be a great addition for Glossop's timetable as brand-new DMU services toward Rose Hill etc?

Anyway, to summarise, the way I see TSW continuing to be a long-term success is ironically to not forget its past, which have had some of the franchise's greatest routes. TSW is a sim and should be realistic, and this means having routes that should feature all relevant rolling stock (I mean having Edinburgh Waverley currently in TSW without Azumas... even though the train exists in TSW from ECML is beyond baffling!).

There is no easy answer unfortunately. Time is a major factor of course, which is why I reckon just at least some of the oldest and most popular routes should get a timetable update to include newer loco DLC.

Again, this leads to more debate, should some routes get a periodic update for new loco DLC?

Finally, I've not even mentioned this, but I will briefly. While Free Roam is a fun new feature for TSW, the fact that it's so basic that you can't even load/unload passengers like normal timetabled services means this feature is completely pointless and is not the solution for having newer locos for older routes.

Anyway, thanks for reading. Appreciate it's quite a long post but would like to hear your views from both players as well as DTG on the subject of older routes vs newer locos.

 

Well new routes bring money.

Another thing to consider is staffing. They don't have unlimited timetable making staff. Joe did most of the timetable updates so far but he can't do everything. Other guys are working on new timetables, etc. Unless there's a preservation team just for remaking timetables which doesn't exist anymore

 

Exactly!

So, question to the thread author - how would you see those updates: to be paid or free of charge?

Free of charge, in my opinion, you can forget, as I think there is no point in investing time and resources in something that will bring no revenue, it just don't have any business justification. Those routes have been in sale for years so even if it would be completely redone with update of rolling stock, timetable, latest TSW4 features etc. those would probably still not atract as many customers as a new route.

If paid, how much and how often you would be willing to pay for another update of the same route? For a company, they would have to verify would there be enough customers for paid updates so to justify the effort of such.

And as you have mentioned Free Roam as a way to run new stuff on old routes - I think it's the cheapest solution for DTG to keep interest in old stuff and I see them rather investing time in evolving Free Roam then in constant updates of obsolete DLCs.

I would love to see some routes updates to latest standards, like BML or mentioned by you MSB, I would even buy it again for let's say half price of the original route price, but I don't believe those updates will ever happen for the reasons I've mentioned above.

 

E-G isn't a DTG route, therefore, this isn't their responsibility as such.
That falls to Rivet Games, if they choose to add it.

I believe the current 700 we have doesn't run to Brighton, as it is only the RLU unit.
for that we'd need the FLU.
And also, BML suffers with memory problems, so it would need that adressed first

 

Most projects these days seem to be issued on a fire and forget basis. Maybe in the beginning we got the Class 20 and Class 31 for TVL and the Class 40 Heavy Freight for NTP.

Now new routes are thrown out regularly but get no love when it comes to ongoing development. Look no further than Spirit Of Steam - massive fanfare building up to release but now lies largely forgotten with a timetable which barely scratches the prototype and a handful of the locos and stock that would be seen on the route. Not to mention maybe extending it a little bit.

So the best policy now when deciding to buy a new route is evaluate what comes with it, check anything that might get layered in but don't expect it will ever amount to anything more.

 

Why would they focus on something like this when Metrolink doesn't run over Cajon Pass? I'm assuming you mean for them to create specific services on Cajon Pass for the F125? What would a service even look like with no station stops or any decent higher speed running? This seems counter-productive. For them to spend time and resources creating fantasy timetable services on a route using DLC that doesn't operate on the route in real life. Not to mention, the Metrolink DLC is only compatible with TSW4 and Cajon Pass is a TSW3 route. So it wouldn't work anyways without them making it compatible and they're just not going to do that. The work required doesn't outweigh the benefits. This is something to consider for everything you suggested. What DLC would work with what TSW version. DTG isn't going to go backwards to TSW3 and start making new services, timetables, and a bunch of DLC work with it when they're focused on TSW4 now.

 

At most the F125 would just be AI traffic running thru San Bernadino and that's it.....

 

I understand the “but muh profits” is a legitimate business argument.

But I do hope they can achieve a good balance between rolling out new content and supporting old content.

You bring up some excellent points as routes are getting “power creeped” way too quickly.

E-G is a solid example of that. Sure, it’s not a DTG route but it’s still fairly new and it feels sort of gimped since there’s now an Azuma literally in the game yet we can’t go back and use them in Edinburg. The politics of whose route it is- well, if that’s negatively impacting the player experience then that needs sorting.

HMA is a good example. But on the contrary we have seen them go back and put some serious work into old routes on occasion. The preservation team was probably overly ambitious and didn’t achieve all goals but they still did some great things.

Boston has been brought a good standard. Koln is being worked on from what I understand. And then some routes are dead forever.

So it’s hit or miss, these things do happen on occasion but maybe not at the speed us players would like and maybe not to the routes we’d like. I honestly don’t even know what a reasonable balance looks like.

 

I agree. It just isn't worth it for DTG to go back and add this in, especially when you'd barely see it. Like I said, they'd also be going backwards to TSW3 to add stuff to old routes and we all know they just aren't going to do that. Especially if it means making new TSW4 only DLC compatible with TSW3... not to mention DLC that doesn't even operate on the route. And again, this goes for anything suggested, not just the F125.

Use free roam in TSW4 and place a Metrolink consist on Cajon Pass is my suggestion to achieve what the OP has suggested.

 

I feel like what SCS software is doing with rebuilding their old maps like the California Rework for American Truck Simulator is what I kind of wanna see with some TSW routes.

The only problem is SCS has a lot larger player base with ETS2 and ATS than DTG has with TSW.

 

The frustrating thing for me Is them charging for liverys that you do free in creators club instead they could add new trains to existing routes like they did when they put the 313 on East Coastway that would make more sense

 

I don't see a business case for this, but I entertain the idea. They did it with SEHS for TSW3 and Dresden for TSW4, I don't see any reason not to do the same for another older route.

 

So would old routes if they actually bothered to keep them updated with fixes and new rolling stock when applicable.

This is not a multiplayer game where you always need the newest stuff, this is a simulator where you get what you are interested in, regardless of when they were released.

If you update and improve an older add-on, there is good chance people who have previously skipped it or are simply new to the franchise will now buy it. Also, let's say you release a train add-on for a recent route. At this moment that train add-on will only be interesting to players who own that route. But if the same train would be added to several older routes (if applicable), then suddenly the scope of potential customers becomes much wider. Also those who buy the train will be more likely to buy your older routes also, since they already have the train, so why not have more routes to run it on?

I mean interestingly the concept of using the same loco add-on for several routes works when releasing new routes (like using the RHTT Class 66 on several new british routes, or the DB BR 628 appearing on many new routes), but not with old routes? Even though you could generate quite a few new sales for old routes just by adding a few services to their timetables with new stock - and as said, owners of old routes would be more likely to buy your new stuff because it also improves their existing content.

Not that hard of a concept to grasp. It would be their best interest to keep their content library up to date, so everything sells well, not just the new stuff.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this idea... I wish they would do more with loco dlc and add it to as many routes, as possible.

 

I don’t think 700/0s running to Brighton is an issue considering we have 377/4s going to Milton Keynes!

 

This is the position I’m in now. I’m new to everything but these forums have become a valuable asset to me, mostly in planning the next route or add-on to purchase. I’m blessed to have avoided any hype or fanfare, as you mentioned, and can freely check here, or videos on what bang you actually get for ya buck.

SEHS is a likely candidate considering you get the most ‘new’ rolling stock, as well as an expanded route.

Glossop Line can get in the bin. I already own the Cross City so don’t need another 323, but I also don’t fancy another empty major station! Shame there’s no suitable add-ons (yet) for CC.

I’m tempted by the West Cornwall route, as I’d like to get the traction, and ‘custom scenario’ some Swallow HSTS in.. but no layers.

 

Honestly wouldn't know if that's right or not, I was only answering with reasons I've seen others using.
I don't know much more about trains than they go *electrical noises* or *Diesel Noises*.

 

It seems even OpenAI is full of morons, so don't expect DTG to have active - not reactive selling policy and openminded longterm vision for thier legacy.

 

don’t fully bet Ai would get added in to fill up Birmingham, no promises were made.

rule for one is a rule for all.

 

Completely agree with what’s being said by the OP, so many times have people said we get empty stations cause theirs no appropriate stock, but when there is we still looking at the empty stations.

edit: even when it’s a new route, theirs no guarantee the trains what go their and are out already will be added, just have a look at SOS and Peak Forrest for no BR.

 

I think it has all but been confirmed that SoS, or maybe Peak Forest at least, will be getting the BR Green pack by the new SimTrack.
They hinted to that in the 323 Regional interview.
Something about the interview has 'peaked, and putting a 'kettle' on

But agreed, even Glossop could have had a reskinned/ modernised 150 (and now 142) for the Rose Hill/ Marple services

 

I wondered since Isle of Wight 2 or SEHS why DTG is not revisiting older routes in this fashion. Fx. Munich could totally benefit from a second look. Or Maintal could have been a revisit of Main Spessart.
And then sell them as Version 2.0.
I think the older routes, lets say up to TSW 3, are just exploring and test runs of what is possible (besides I don't think they have explored the possibilities completely). So there is totally a chance to enhance older routes.
As selling point you could extend the older routes, give them more room to play.

 

I have the same views too, but can kinda understand they don't do it as its not bringing in any money. Except if you maybe did it as a charged update. But then everybody would be furious that they charge for an update.
What I don't understand however, is that they do more routes than loco/train DLC's.
I think we're at a point now where we have many nice routes, even though my personal wishes aren't included. But instead of new routes that come with a single train and maybe a few layers they could do so many more loco DLC's and get money from them...

 

Yep, how many of us have bought, or considered buying, dlc routes mostly for the traction you get?

 

For me its like half of the German content I own. Maintalbahn gonna be for the 642, Linke Rheinstrecke I purchased for the 103

Theres so many potential loco DLCs for Germany. BR120,140,151,294,402, IC cabcar etc.

 

Sure, 103 was a consideration, but besides that, I bought out of things to do. Thats why I think Linke Rheinstrecke was a waste of money.
Rhein Ruhr fx: I can drive a lot of lines, IC and so on. I can stand in Essen and could choose, which train I get on next. The same is for Dresden, even though it is not good enough.
I wish I could do that in Munich, or any other german route.
I would love routes to have a central station, and some branches. So one could spawn in the central station and choose, which train to go on next.

 

They were baised towards SEHS because it was their home route.

 

You can't blame them for that, Maintal fx seems to be also a route near to the german employees hearts. I totally get that. I'm cool with that. Sooo, whats your point again?

 

Hopefully there has been an uptick in sales of NTP, TVL and WCL since the launch of BPO, owning the first two, and their associated loco packs, adds a lot to the Preston traffic, and the Pacer substitutes in Cornwall.

If WCL has seen a spike in sales it may encourage DTG to add Pacer substitutions into the other routes (yes, I know the timings are a little off for when the timetables are set, but I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives).

I also remember Just Trains mention they have put a lot of AI trains on the WCML section that are using loco hauled coaches when in reality they would have been EMUs at that point, with a suggestion they could go back and swap them out if the required EMUs come to the game. I think this approach is brilliant because it means something is always going on at Preston, whereas a lot of routes have very empty major stations. Here's hoping a future JT route includes said EMUs so they can add them in to Preston.

 

That was probably one reason why they revisited and added much to it.

 

This has been my wish for DTG as well. Most of their loco add-ons have been fairly good, and they seriously need to focus on making trains rather than releasing yet another route that’ll only include half of the stock that would actually be on the route. Just think about how many routes would benefit from making a few extra train for them, such as Clinchfield Railroad, Sherman Hill, Linke Rheinstrecke, Boston-Providence, Peak Forest, etc.

If DTG wants to keep pumping out add-ons, they should at least put more focus into making trains. I personally find new loco add-ons more appealing to buy at full price compared to a new route (due to $17 being much more tolerable to spend than $40).

 

Totally agree with the OP. Just how loud do we have to shout at DTG before they hear us?
I think that it would be prudent to create a team to solely work on legacy content to help keep it as fresh as possible. Adam previously headed such a team (Preservation Crew) but didn't get very far before leaving DTG. Much of the UK content (I do not own any others) is being left to limp behind the newer content as if it has been fully exploited already, which is far from the case. I know that DTG, like all companies, want to make money but there have been so many missed opportunities to do just that as well as allowing us to expand our collections. Please DTG, start improving the older content and filling the huge gaps at larger stations as it is quite immersion breaking to arrive at these locations and find them little more than ghost towns.

 

JT subbed diesel locos for electric locos. There are no UK electric locomotives in TSW at all. This is partly down to the releases in the past not having any and no DLC either. EMUs did appear at Preston but not that often. What's needed is a Class 86 or 87 for the era JT have done it in. Also the coaching stock needs mixing up more as not everything was mk2a stock by any means. But to be fair to JT they did a good job with what was available.

 

True that. I think the "things to do" is one of the most important aspect of routes. Thats why I keep coming back to Dresden-Riesa and Bremen-Oldenburg. And never really touch other routes that much like Munich-Augsburg or all of that Ruhr stuff...

100% agree. And in theory a single loco seems to be less work than a complete route including trains.
e.g. Linke Rheinstrecke: BR120 including IR-coaches and a cabcar. BR151 as a old heavy freight loco. BR140 for normal freight. BR141 for the regional services. V100 family of shunters for shunting action. Hell, they could offer a 141 and 140 full price even though the locos are very very similar (probably even share quite a bit with our already in the game BR110). So developing them could potentially be a lot more streamlined and easier than doing a whole new loco from scratch.
And thats the first things that came to my mind for LFR only.

My god, I'm bringing in ideas for the most blatant cash grabs that actually would be cool. They should hire me lol

 

Thanks, maybe I misheard the EMU comment and it was electric locos, which would also be a great addition.

JT did a fantastic job re-using what was available, I would love for them to add a 104 as an add-on pack, then make another route connected to the WCML with electric locos that could then also appear as AI through Preston.

 

1st Gen DMUs are staples of all the BR routes. Fingers crossed as the 101 is good but its probably going to need a 3rd party to come up with another DMU. The 104 would be a great choice as would a 108. Both have worked around the UK in many areas.

 

Yeah, MSB is in need of a major Face-lift. It's at a point where I can see Untextured UE4 landscape from the cab of my train.

 

108’s were one of the last remaining types in service, at least outside the London area. When I covered the Provincial Desk in Swindon Control during the late 80’s and early 90’s, Laira, Bath Road and Landore all still had their own fleets of them.

 

Longsight still had some up in the North West. Doesn't seem to be an appetite to produce them in TSW as they don't sell....or is it Modern good and steam only good in DTG world? PFR would have been day one for me if the 104 had come out with it.

 

I'm going to get shot in the foot for this, but it's probably because modern is easier (and therefore less development time which means more money).

Either that, or they're just lazy and like to produce several versions of the same train.

 

They have said some older stuff ie BR blue stuff doesn't sell so that's a main reason for mostly modern. Plenty of older stuff on preserved lines and less difficult places to access in some cases. Hopefully the JT route shows that some interest exists in older stuff.

 

I'd see any timetable and addition of existing rolling stock to be done for free annually when they have tio update the routes to work with the next iteration of the game. As they're having to update everything anyway giving the odd route a newer timetable and rolling stock that should be there from other routes isn't going to add much more work when getting the routes ready for the new game

 

Don't know where that came from, if DTG actually put in a bit more effort like JT did with their 80s route, they would sell well.

Not that NTP and TVL are bad routes, but there is still room for more on each of them.

 

Yeah, that's not true at all lol.
Coming from someone that's building a timetable at the moment. It's a lot of work. Adding in new rolling stock beyond simply a substitution is a lot of work.
If it's just substitution you mean, they should already be doing that if it's setup appropriately. e.g. West Cornwall Local already substitutes the pacer in, because both the 150 and pacer are setup properly.

 

Exactly this will be the reason, why TSW won't be a long term success as sooner or later will have a severe problem to find people buying content of theirs, if they don't change forgetting products of the past or even the recent moment.

Customers are no fools, and at a certain point even the last one will think about whether investing in content, which is that pricy but receives almost no updates after it has been released makes sense anymore.

If you want long term success of your products (and I'm not only talking about the base game as rather all content including the DLCs on their own) you have to care about it and improve it.

If you don't, your customers will orientate at products of competitors and/or doubt whether investing any more in this software still makes sense.

For a lot of people they have already passed this moment, at least when TSW4 was announced and released this year.

Now its a question what DTG can do in the future to regain the trust and loyality of these people.

Let's see what happens or, to be more accurate, what not happens.

The main problem I think this company has that there are way too many employees handling other stuff as rather people who really can bring the content further and improve it (actual developers).

They always say that time is a problem because the developer they got either need to focus on the new content or are engaged to fix bugs in the latest or newest DLCs.

It's clear that they don't have the time to improve older content then.

My personal opinion is a restructure of the complete company, could vastly improve the products and with that, the sales of course as well.

But I'm just a nobody in the internet, so my words mean nothing.

Because of this, free roam only makes fun if you drive freight trains or imagine an unloaded passenger train to move from A to B because of repair or preparation for a service.

And Scenario Planner on the other side, and apart from not being very pleasant to use, either lacks features or created scenarios consist of bugs, where passengers either do not load into the train properly or are non existent on some train stations.

Yes, timetable require intense work to create and test, but it doesn’t always mean a timetable need to consist of hundreds of services.

As a last side note, the PC Editor finally opens opportunities to the community to provide customized timetables. We already have seen on-going projects, which are really impressive.

Maybe this could be a chance where DTG can put their hands on and work together with people in the community, which have the time and the will to create timetables, but since they do this for fun and non-profit yet, there are not interested to engage in improving the timetables for all DLCs and possible locos which could drive in them.

 

I would say this process of customers turning away is already visible. Just look at the player numbers on Steam. And while we don't have data from console player numbers, TSW4 not being available on Game Pass I assume also hurt player numbers quite badly.

 

Agree, but SCS also has a larger player base because they improve their old content.

It's the cycle of pain and effort in exchange for fruits and trophies.

The more you're ready to give, the more you're able to get.

 

Well, this was yours but let me share my point of view.

What about the people who bought the route?

Some people could see at least 40% of the price of a 35€/40$ product as a credit/investment for future updates because you don't think the price is justified for what you get for it yet.

They paid the price nonetheless, because they liked the product and had good faith that the creator improves it, including fixing bugs which maybe even brakes the purpose - at least the experience - of the product.

Of course, no promises were made (but partwise indeed even so) but they trusted in him/her.

However, it turns out that the creator never really had interest in the product and all is and will keep just as it was.

How would you feel?

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would pay for an upgrade of my favorite route/s, as I already said in the "What marks a route as completed for you?" thread. Much rather than investing in routes I completely don't care about.

And for the company's point of view, they simply need to check it out!

If there really will be not enough people, fine. But you need to proof the interest in it before.

Just saying "Hey, nobody's going to buy this" and eliminating all processes beforehand would be very silly and unprofessionell in my opinion.

 

Overall the OP is right! Anyone coming to TSW today and starting their Train Sim journey is still going to pay the same £24.99 for the old TSW2020 routes that I paid when I bought them for TSW2020. Those routes should be getting updated and improved at regular intervals otherwise newer players are going to feel even more ripped off than most of the community does with each new game. If DTG are just going to ignore the older routes then they shouldn't be still charging full price for them to encourage newer players to buy them and stay with the game instead of the paying full price for Rapid Transit and wondering what the hell is this LOVE and binning the game altogether!

 

likely will follow similar trend, theirs not reason for it to be radically different.