Inspiration For The Dtg Dev Team On Improving Real World Lighting

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by HeyYoPaulie!, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. HeyYoPaulie!

    HeyYoPaulie! Well-Known Member

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    Inspiration for the dev team at DTG, from one wonderful simulator to another ;)

     
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  2. smoothchat

    smoothchat New Member

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    I think they could improve things almost immediately by just replacing the rather tacky scattered cloud texture. The trains and scenery look so amazing, the sunny sky lets things down.
     
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  3. RailRoadEngineer

    RailRoadEngineer Member

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    For Train Simulator or Train Sim World?
     
  4. smoothchat

    smoothchat New Member

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    Ah, train Sim World 2 looks good already (but could benefit from better clouds). TrainSim2021 needs a more general complete freshen up for sure.
     
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  5. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    Inspiration for DTG ahahaha? They will prioritize the livery designer which clearly is a feature that Tsw really needs, making more and more broken and dlc which will ended up replicating more bugs and glitches. TSW has 4 years and still DTG didn't improve the sky, clouds or lightning. This game doesn't move forward because DTG don't prioritize the right features.
     
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  6. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    SCS is one of the best, if not the best software house for videogames.
     
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Absoutely. I love American Truck Simulator. On the lighting front though, the night time lighting is utter garbage. This game has been out for 4 years and we are yet to get night time lighting improvements. You would think ever since the launch of tsw2 they would make steps in that department but they have not which is odd in my opinion. I figured with an engine update then lighting would be improved but I guess lighting is not a high priority even though that is basicially the biggest criticism of this sim
     
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  8. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    SCS has the advantage of using their own proprietary engine, not renting a 3rd-party engine like Unreal. When it's your own, you can tailor it to your needs (compare Rockstar and RAGE, with what happened to Bioware when EA forced Frostbite on them).
     
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  9. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Apart from the differences (the owning of proprietary engine for example), SCS to me is on another level in a couple of areas: customer care and pre-release testing (I've rarely encountered bugs in new DLCs).
     
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  10. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    They are also nearly three times DTG's size
     
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  11. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    DTG have said they don’t want to spend all the performance on cloud and lighting visuals as Simugraph takes up a lot of CPU power as it is.

    There’s no doubt it could look better, but until performance improvements and enhancements come, I’d expect little, if any improvements to it.
     
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  12. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    Any source? If Wikipedia is correct they are roughly the same size in terms of people employed.
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    At least they don't release clear as day bugs. Just because dtg are "small" doesn't really mean anything. SCS is small as well and they have better policies in my opinion. Deliver high quality content at really good prices, better pre release testing and don't make content that seems like a quick way to earn money like dtg did with the 70s pack in my opinion
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
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  14. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Many games use unreal and have better lighting and weather effects than this game
     
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  15. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Am I the only one not fully convinced by Simugraph? It’s a nice concept but it seems to be incredibly resource intensive for what it is and I’m not remotely sure as to how accurate it is. For example, wheelslip. It seems entirely pre-determined i.e. In this weather in this train, the wheels will slip at this power-setting until this speed. The wheels always seem to slip under the same conditions whilst accelerating but never whilst braking. Additionally, the random incidences of trains literally stopping dead under braking (like you've hit an invisible wall) and derailing, which I’ve experienced on a few DLC, notably TGV and SEHS.

    I just sometimes wonder whether or not it’s worth the overhead. It certainly doesn’t feel anymore authentic to me than Armstrong Powerhouse physics in TS1.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
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  16. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Simugraph is no more accurate than it done conventional ways if the wrong values have been inputted. This has been done several times only to be fixed in post patches.

    I think Simugraph makes it easier to input the values itself, but it’s by no mean more accurate by default. We don’t even know if they’re utilising it fully, which I suspect they aren’t. Things like wheel slip and slide seem pretty dubious and almost scripted like to me.

    As for optimisation and performance, it probably isn’t as optimised as it could be, therefore they have to sacrifice other things in order to keep it running smoothly.
     
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  17. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    There is something that bothers me a lot about the lighting in TSW, and that is that the sunlight is not reflected in the right places many times. For example, you are driving, you have the sun behind the train and it reflects directly on the windshield and inside the cab, as if you had the sun in front of you.
    Or also with the station lights at night, which make the cabin light up completely, not partially as it would be in reality due to the light coming through the window.
    I don't know if these bugs are very difficult to fix because I don't understand this, but it would make the game look much better.
     
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  18. Ravi

    Ravi Active Member

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    I think SCS's focus on only PC helps too. I don't see them diverging to consoles and so don't have to worry about having to keep performance across all devices consistent. DTG has to. At some point of time, they are going to port over to the much powerful next gen consoles(next big update??) and then I guess the visual quality would go up.
     
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  19. smoothchat

    smoothchat New Member

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    In the case of TSW2, IMHO, a simple bitmap replacement for the scattered cloud texture would make a big difference at no performance cost. Everything else holds up very well.

    In the case of TS2021, IMHO, it looks very 2004ish and needs some cosmetic improvement to the overall look to bring it up to TSW2 standard.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2021
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  20. Allsop4

    Allsop4 New Member

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    One of the advantages of being on a PC is to be able to scale the sim down to match our hardware if need be. I don't think that DTG should make that decision for us. If clouds causes a cpu/gpu load issue, please let US decide if we want to have 45 fps or 22 fps. A lot of simmers have monster machines and could most surely handle an improved skybox. DTG had done an incredible job with the scenery and the TRAINS!!! I am greatly impressed by them! But the ugly skybox is akin to having a beautiful Ferrari whose sex appeal is stolen by a big ole' nasty scratch running from bumper to bumper. And that's what the clouds are in TSW/TSW2. A big ole' nasty scratch.
     
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's all well and good, but roughly 2/3 of TSW players are on console
     
  22. George C. Barnes

    George C. Barnes Member

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    wait for the UE5 release
     
  23. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    One issue I have with the physics is with the Bakerloo line when I set it to rain. Outside when raining the wheels slip as normal but once I'm inside the tunnles with the rain there is wheelslip when I break or accelerate in and out of a station which I believe is pretty unrealistic when your in a deep tube tunnel unless there is some unknown leak I'm not aware of. That is totally unrealistic and makes me feel simugraph is scripted and not dynamic for the Bakerloo line
     
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  24. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    But if you accelerate very strongly in the hall in Munich Hbf, the train only slides outside the hall when it rains or snows. (Only when you start in Munich Hbf, if you was before outside, your Train slide also in the Hall)

    With the Bakerloo Line it could be that the wheels are wet = the train is slipping.

    ...Many underestimate Simugraph

    SimuGraph is much more realistic than the old TS. The old TS is only a game, when you compare it to TSW.
     
  25. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Why does that matter?

    This 2/3 split keeps being parroted around as fact but I've never seen it written as so anywhere, have you? Do you have a factual source, or is it just one of these internet rumours that's now accepted as fact because no one challenges it?

    Additionally, there are many many people on PC who haven't made the leap from TS1 to TSW for numerous reasons. Anecdotally, issues with scalability, lighting and the 'sim' element of the game being just some.

    kuchen0125 - Sorry, but I totally disagree. As tallboy7648 says, if you set the weather to rain on the Bakerloo line then start inside the tunnels the wheels slip and continue the whole time it's raining outside. If that was a next-gen physics engine at work that wouldn't be the case. The point you're making regarding Munich supports my theory regarding wheel slip. It seems to be completely scripted and this is just another example. 'Inside the Canopy' - don't slip. 'Outside the canopy' - slip.

    My understanding is that most wheel slip issues occur in the Autumn with the dumping of leaves (in the UK at least). In TSW it matters not what the season is, whether or not there are leaves present or any other myriad of factors. For all the world it seems to be simply an equation of unit+precipitation+current speed+power-handle position = Slip / no slip. It is always the same with no variation.

    The point I was making is that Simugraph seems to require a hefty chunk of processing power. Having played Armstrong Powerhouse's content on TS1 extensively I can say without question that it is every bit as realistic, if not more so than TSW. Take their Class 37 and put it up against the one in TSW...there is simply no comparison. One feels like a heavy, powerful beast of a machine which bucks and weaves under strain whilst the other feels like a thin rubber band wind up toy.

    So playing Devils advocate for the purposes of a debate, is Simugraph worth the processing power it requires? I'm not saying it's bad, just that perhaps it's not quite where we all hoped it would be. Is it a big enough leap in fidelity to justify the extra oomph it needs?

    I have to question just what it is and what it achieves when I select brake 2 in the 465 and after 3 or 4 seconds the train literally stops dead for no reason at all and derails - ‘vehicle derailed, session over’. No (watch the language - Edited by Clarkey) sherlock. I’ve had that happen numerous times on TGV too. That isn’t right.

    All of this is secondary to the point of the thread, which is that there are fundamental problems with the lighting in the game. I, like many others, really hope that this next ‘core update’ will sort these once and for all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2021
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  26. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    This is the second assumption you make in this thread withouth reporting any source...
     
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  27. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It’s what has been said several times on live streams by Dovetail staff. I’ve also read in the forum from a reliable source* that the proportion of console players was a fair bit above two thirds, but as far as what is currently stated on the streams, and the most up to date info we are given, the three platforms are said to be a “roughly equal three-way split”.

    *I can’t provide a link for reference or even remember who it was who said it so you can disregard this information, as it’s only me saying it. You can take this as an internet rumour. The two thirds number others are quoting isn’t a rumour.
     
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  28. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    It looks like they don't know how the TS works? The TS2021 cannot respond to weather conditions. In the TS2021 you can enter a fixed value for wheel slip or a randomly generated value(See the Problems at the K-Trains 186 with the randomly generated wheel slip value).
    In TSW, the game reacts to the weather, depending on whether it is raining lightly or raining heavily. Have you ever ridden Talent 2 in a snow storm? It has very strong wheel slip, just like in reality.


    As in TSW, the Talent 2 is actually a nice weather vehicle in reality.


    You can't compare TSW to TS2021. The TS2021 is just a game, to make the TS2021 "realistic" you have to do a lot around it. The engine behind the TS war was not intended for a realistic railroad simulation. The TSW with SimuGraph does it. The problem of overexposure is a big problem, but as far as I know it's an EpicGames to belong to.

    This is a problem with Unreal Engine 4, but does the DTG have an alternative? Unity? Own engine like UE4? Too expensive

    TSW is going to be a really good game, but it will be a time. DTG is already going in the right direction
     
  29. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Which would be immensely convenient for DTG, think about it. I’m not saying they’re lying, just that without evidence I’m not inclined to believe it. I just think It would be really handy / convenient for the player base to be neatly split into 3 equally sized groups.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  30. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I’m not remotely suggesting otherwise. The game is good and it is definitely going in the right direction, albeit glacially. On the specific point of Simugraph I’m playing devils advocate. As an end user it doesn’t feel anymore ‘real’ than TS1. Actually, that’s not true. Compared to DTG’s stock in TS1 it’s worlds apart, but that’s not what I’m comparing it to. With Armstrong Powerhouse’s content you get wheelslip that appears random (scripted or not). Equally, the wheels slip under braking. I still haven’t seen that at all in many hours of playing TSW2. Not a single time.

    Anyways, we’re off topic here. This is more about lighting, the simugraph question came around as a point about resource allocation. I should reiterate I like it, it’s good, but I’m just not quite sure it’s the monumental leap forward I thought it would be.
     
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  31. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    In contrast to all other train simulators, the TSW with Simugraph is a big leap forward. In train simulators from train companies, a train is only driven mathematically (with the traction curve) and not simulatively. In the TSW, the DTG must add train properties to the train, otherwise the train will not run. So engines, air lines, everything that is relevant to driving. The train simulator only wants acceleration values and braking values, so it is very difficult to reproduce a train in the TS2021 very real - actually impossible.

    It is also impossible to reproduce wheel slip in the TS2021 as it is in real life. You can simulate wheel slip there, yes, but the TS2021 is not interested in the weather. The TSW does.

    But of course, if DTG produces an engine incorrectly, the train will not run as it does in reality. But I do trust DTG that they won't produce a train if they don't know how the train's engine and much more is built.

    What I saw that the wheel slip was forgotten on the ET423. Otherwise all trains will have wheel slip in TSW
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
  32. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Well, we're just going round in circles because I disagree. If you believe that wheelslip in TSW is simulating real life then clearly I'm not going to change your mind but I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion. That's still your prerogative of course! It's probably best if we just leave it there and let the thread get back on topic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  33. doktor1

    doktor1 Member

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    Yeah, skybox could be better looking.
    But overall, 4k + ultawide + ini tweaks and game looks great. But draw distance is MUST to tweak!
    And with that tweaks my game must be on SSD cause frame drops from loading areas are huge; on SSD there is no problem.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  34. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I agree. In TSW it just doesn't ‘feel’ ‘proper’. It feels very scripted as when you notch down wheelslip immediately stops, as well as when you notch up it immediately starts slipping again. Add to the fact that the sounds do not react at all to wheelslip, so the motor/engine will just sound like it’s accelerating normally.

    The AP Class 150 I had a very fun experience trying to brake and accelerate in poor adhesion. Adding to the experience of the engine constantly trying to rev as it finds traction, as well as the speedo go crazy as the wheels spin. I’ve just not had this experience in TSW, as trains just feel so lightweight and like go-karts in comparison.
     
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  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Yeh but when you are in a tunnel the train would dry up and therefore the wheels as well so there should be no reason why the bakerloo line train in the tunnels have wheelslip. That is not realistic unless water is getting inside the very tight tunnels. You prove my point that simugraph is scripted and not dynamic
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  36. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    I start in Elephant & Castle(Tunnel). The weather is spring with very heavy rain. I don't have a wheel slip?
     
  37. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The skybox does need some improving. Lighting is one of the biggest complaints about this game. Night time is worse because once the sun sets and it's night time it will get completely pitch black and in some cases in winter, the station lights won't even be on making the stations completely dark. Once the time at night goes on by, the area will get brighter which is unrealistic. If you are in a place for example Koln HBF and the surrounding area especially with the close buildings, it should be somewhat bright because of all the lights producing light pollution but this game doesn't simulate light pollution. If you are driving in the middle of nowhere or through the suburbs then it should be pretty dark but it gets bright for some odd reason.
     
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  38. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I do with spring rain and wetness on
     
  39. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    And the player base (sold copies) seems to be much higher. According to steamdb.info the 24hour player peak is;
    ETS2: 32,500
    ATS: 6,300
    vs
    TSW 1,000
    TS 2,200

    Easier to keep costs low and still generate a lot of income if you're selling considerably more copies of the game.

    But yes, SCS is a great company. I love their games. DTG isn't a great company, but I still love their games too.
     
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  40. Agent Qracle RUS

    Agent Qracle RUS Well-Known Member

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    +++
     
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  41. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    When American Truck Simulator launched the price for that game was pretty cheap in my opinion and you can get arizona for free. SCS is a great company and care about everything they make. SCS has 170 employees so they are not three times the size of dtg and are small themselves. SCS also has a great modding community and could mod the game like crazy and even make states that are not in the game yet and drive cross country. DTG I believe has 150 employees. DTG on the other hand feels like a hit or miss at times. You'll get a great quality product such as east coastway but sehs hs1 on the other hand seemed to lack care
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
  42. Costpap

    Costpap Member

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    It's a bit of an unfair comparison in this case, to be honest. TSW is also available on PlayStation and Xbox, 2 more different platforms than ETS2/ATS. And considering how roughly 2/3 of TSW players are console players, it's probably a little bit more, albeit surely less than ETS2 or maybe ATS. As for TS, well. Nothing to comment there.

    The thing about SCS is that despite the fact that they're slightly larger than DTG, at least on paper, they know what features to prioritize in their games and make a sales strategy that makes sense, at least more than DTG's does. The base games for ETS2/ATS sell for 19.99€, compared to the 29.99€ of TSW or TS. Not only that, but the base map is a lot larger compared to the 3 routes that are bundled with the game by default, and you have access to all trucks and the majority of trailer configurations, as opposed to the current 6 locomotives that the base routes come with. In addition, ETS2/ATS can often be had for only 4.99€ during a sale. That's only near to the discounted price for a locomotive on TSW, which keep in mind, you have to own the base game and the specific route for the locomotive, which is 60€ assuming that you bought both at non-discounted prices. If that wasn't enough, the map expansion DLCs for ETS2/ATS only come out on a yearly basis, and actually cost slightly less than the base game, at 17.99€, while also managing to pack a lot more content than DTG's routes. You don't ever have to pay for the closest thing to locomotives, trucks, everything is included as part of the base game, give or take the tuning packs. Their games are also more optimized and don't come with bugs that are later disguised as features. Simply put, SCS isn't as greedy as DTG is and actually cares about their users having a more affordable and actually playable, as intended, product.

    While I understand that a lot of things are different between making content for 2 different game engines compared to 1, that SCS simply has a much larger audience than DTG, that DTG doesn't control how often their content goes on sale on consoles, that trucks take significantly less to develop compared to most locomotives, that the maps in SCS games aren't a true 1:1 scale, etc. etc., it simply goes to show lots of things. Maybe DTG doesn't have to be so profit-orientended and the 29.99€ price point for the base game & routes and 13.99€ price point for locomotives has to change, or be revised? I'm sure that they could attract a few more customers by variably pricing routes and locomotives, or at least dropping the prices a little bit. It's time to change.
     
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  43. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this is a good comparison. Trucks can pretty much go wherever there's a road (obviously exceptions like small country lanes, weak bridges, etc), and specific designs of truck are generally not limited to one small area, so SCS can model a few trucks (IIRC there's about 20?) and that's a nice variety for Europe. If DTG were to do that, they'd be modelling hundreds - possibly thousands - of locomotives, coaches and wagons - the vast majority of which will not be usable because some trains only run on a specific line (such as the Class 390, which only runs on the WCML), or in a certain area (such as the Class 318, which only runs on commuter services in and around Glasgow).

    Could DTG model the entirety of a country to use all these trains? Concievably, yes, but given it takes them up to 6 months to model about 50 miles, it'd probably take them a fair few years - possibly decades, and (given how much some people get riled up about the colour of the flipping ballast) I'm not sure TSW players would be willing to accept abstract representations of places to have that, without a completely new and different game. Matt once said on his own stream he'd have liked GWE to go all the way to Penzance, but it'd have been a case of "see you in a decade".
     
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  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    2 points:

    1 Trucks are a LOT more popular than trains. A 32:1 sales ratio can't be waved away as a difference in pricing strategy. That's not three times, but thirty times, the gross revenue SCS has to play with compared to DTG.

    2 ETS and ATS model "states" and "countries," but they're shrunk down to Legoland size. Munich to Salzburg in ten minutes? Can't really be compared at all to TSW which models 30 or so miles, but it's the full thirty scale miles.
     
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  45. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    A car / truck / bus game is also much easier to program than a railroad game. The only thing to program in ETS2 is the truck, Ki Autot / Trucks and the traffic lights. The roads are very easy to build and the signs are recycled over and over again (which is good for developers too). A railway game is much more difficult to program, and TSW all the more, because you have to reproduce the motors and you can't invent any acceleration and braking values like in the old TS.


    For example, if you take the car with the air compressor away from the new Talent 2 in the TSW, then the train won't leave because it has run out of air in the TSW.

    The TS2021 wouldn't care, but that's very unrealistic.


    DTG has to do a lot more than SCS or other car / truck / bus developers.

    Programming audio in the TSW also takes 1-2 weeks, for example. For games like ETS2 or TS2021, the audio could be inserted into a pre-made blueprint. But in reality do you hear the sound everywhere on a train? No, because the train doesn't have a motor everywhere

    TSW is a completely different number...
     
  46. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    I see this brought up many times, but the reason for it is simply that it's not appealing enough on PC. On consoles it's the only proper train simulator, so all the train lover console players will go for it - while many PC players will keep on playing TS or Trainz or anything else on the market.

    If TSW lived up to it's potential properly, the PC crowd would go nuts over it as well.

    Though I agree that volumetric clouds are pointless. You can make pretty clouds with more traditional and performance friendly ways as well.
     
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  47. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    I wish the sounds did change with wheelslip, as electrostars and networkers sound hilarious when slipping
     
  48. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Price cuts for dlc could certainly attract more customers but the prices for me are fine and since dtg are stubborn, permanent price cuts won't happen
     
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  49. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    When i play with the 422 and wheelslip happens, the electric motors cut out if I apply max break. Now im not sure if that happens in reality
     
  50. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Fair points.

    I play both TSW and ATS/ETS, and try to keep in mind that they're very different concepts and i like and dislike things about each.

    I play ATS/ETS more for relaxation and virtual sightseeing, while in TSW i'm more interested in an accurate simulation and the actual experience of driving the different trains.

    That being said, TSW's skies are dreadful.....SCS's truck sims are the big winner in that category.
     
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