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Is Pzb Broken On The New Hauptstrecke München - Augsburg?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Vinnie, Oct 21, 2020.

  1. Vinnie

    Vinnie Active Member

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    Watching the stream earlier I noticed in a number of occasions (ex. 53min on the stream video above) that the PZB it's not even responding to 1000hz and 500hz... But apparently they will release it anyway even after all things we discuss here on forums.

    I'm astonished.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  2. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    May have been under LZB.
     
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  3. Vinnie

    Vinnie Active Member

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    No, it is not. Under PZB. 53min. and on it's a good example
     
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  4. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Active Member

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    I just noticed myself, I thought at first that because it was a repeater PZB may not have been active, but that isn’t the case.
     
  5. Valdez

    Valdez Active Member

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    Maybe worth reporting it as a potential bug via their system to make sure they at least get a chance to check it before launch? Matt did PZB Ack too so I guess he expected it to start monitoring.
     
  6. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I will wait until I'm sure they fix it. I know I won't use the route if PZB is not working properly, so no point in buying it right now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  7. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    This happens because they have surprisingly introduced a new feature. Until 8:20 AM (time in the video) everything works correctly, both the visual signs along the line and the safety systems on the line and train. Then, as happens all over the world, the unions of the German railways went on strike no longer guaranteeing their assistance along the line. And so the security services (in this specific case the PZB) was disabled even if the HUD kept reporting it as active. In this case it is enough to update the HUD.

    If I deactivate the HUD, who tells me that I must not exceed 120km/h? Perhaps the "M" (here Im serious), because at a certain point on the line the numerical tables relating to speeds [12] disappear.

    Sometimes you get the impression that the maximum allowed speed is 160km/h(?) even if the line (or rather, the HUD) reports 120km/h. Several times in the video, with the limit at 120km/h, the train exceeds the 120km/h and the overspeed warning light (G) does not come on on the dispay. And if you exceed the 125km/h (max permitted speed + 5), which happens in the video, the emergency brake (S) does not work. It happens in the variant between the main line and the S3 line (I suppose).

    On video
    -at minute 34:24, 125km/h (no overpeed (G) alarm).
    -at minute 37:40, 130km/h (no overspeed (G) alarm and no emergency brake (S) alarm).
    -at minute 52:35, 125km/h (no overspeed (G) alarm).


    -at minute 52:40, (approaching to Mammendorf without 1000hz active magnet (at yellow aspect) and successive stop without 500hz active magnet).
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  8. Valdez

    Valdez Active Member

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    DTG Protagonist sorry for the tag, but I think the first post in this thread is worth your attention. Matt mentioned in the stream that we were looking at a release candidate, but there is a possibility that the PZB system is not behaving as expected. Matt is clearly the PZB expert so perhaps 5 minutes of his time today could help prevent a possible issue later? If it turns out not to be an issue lots of PZB fans will be very relieved. TVM.
     
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  9. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Active Member

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    Might also be worth pinging TrainSim-Matt if you wish. It looks like the magnet's not been activated even though it should have, or the train's not acknowledged the magnet is activated and thus did nothing.
     
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  10. Vinnie

    Vinnie Active Member

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    I don't think they I'll look into it right now less than 24 hrs before the US release. At this point may have released in Australia btw.
    Let's see in the released version how PZB responds, maybe could be a fault on the build used for the stream.
     
  11. JZJ90

    JZJ90 New Member

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    Yes, it has already been available in NZ on consoles for 3.5 hours. Sadly the steam release in NZ does not occur until sometime on Friday morning local time (over a day later than console release).
     
  12. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but he definitely seems to be riding it in PZB O (even suggested by the blue 85 and the fact it's an EMU, which only runs in O mode), therefore he can do 165 km/h before getting hit with an emergency.
     
  13. Valdez

    Valdez Active Member

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    Yes I believe that to be correct, I think the over speed is fixed at 165, not sensitive to line speed limits. However having watched that part of the stream briefly I would have expected the 1000hz and a subsequent reduction to <85km/h would be required. Maybe I’m misunderstanding the Ks signal aspect though - they did say they had a German driver on the beta team.
     
  14. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes I forget that PZB it's not too fiscal outside the restriction modes (active magnets). So, yes, you are perfectly right about the overpeed and the emergency brake system. I'm sorry, my mistake.

    Anyway, about Mammendorf approaching I still have some doubts, cause he has a yellow signal and successively the red. But both magnets don't works.
     
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  15. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the moment mentioned in the video is still a problem, I was just talking about going over 125, otherwise, I agree 1000Hz should have gone up at that signal.
     
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  16. BinaryRun

    BinaryRun Active Member

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    It was just brought up on the stream, they are aware of it and Matt noticed it himself yesterday. It won't be fixed in time for the release, but it's on the list of things to fix.
     
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  17. Valdez

    Valdez Active Member

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    Asked Matt on the stream tonight. Their beta testers spotted the issue on the stream too, a fix will not make release, so will need to be fixed after release.
     
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  18. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Active Member

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    I take it, it is just at those signal and the PZB isn’t broken throughout?
     
  19. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Thanks for the reports folks, i've forwarded this thread onto the signalling team to take a look and understand the issue.

    This should be localised, elsewhere it's been working fine!
     
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  20. Haribo112

    Haribo112 New Member

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    I have had similiar issues with PZB on the S-Bahn. I'm driving under PZB at a maximum speed of 100, when I encounter blinking green signal with a yellow '9' underneath. If I acknowledge this, the 1000hz does not light up.
     
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  21. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    I don't see an error here
     
  22. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    well argue what you want, but under any conditions, a simple yellow aspect should be acknowledged, but it doesn't activate the 1000hz mode in the route which is definitely wrong. Was also clearly visible on DTG's own stream so I donno how they are surprised lol
     
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  23. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Active Member

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    They are aware of it, but I’m sure I had a similar issue travelling in the opposite direction too back towards München, will have to replay the service.
     
  24. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    nielsmallant100 But he wrote blinking green, not yellow. He acknowledged the speed change to 90 which will be ahead.
    A blinking green doesn't activate any magnets AFAIK
     
  25. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    Reductions over 80 doesn't activate a magnet. As magnet activation requires to slow down to 85 (80 if you follow how DB operates, that is -5km under PZB limit), it doesn't make sense to require that when the limit is 90. Even speed reductions below 80 doesn't always require acknowledge (but this is mostly when the reduction is by sign).

    This is because TSW finally support "speed magnets" (maybe the old TS does as well, but I haven't experienced them yet). They are pairs of magnets. When the train passes over the first magnet, it activates the second one for a predefined time. If you hit the second during that time (that is you're going too fast), you get either a 1000Hz, if it is by a post which you would acknowledge (so you don't get a 1000hz indication, if you're already going below the incomming speed limit). Or a 2000Hz (emergency brake) when it is at a place you should already be slowed down for the next speed restriction.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
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  26. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Active Member

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    I was just thinking there’s a 90 restriction between Langwied and Pasing, I was expecting PZB & 1000hz upon acknowledging but nothing?

    However, on other routes, HRR springs to mind there’s a 90 restriction on the approach to Mülheim Hbf where PZB &1000hz does activate for the 90km/h reduction!

    Does it depend on the speed reduction ie: going from 140 to 90 will activate it but at a lower speed it won’t?!
     
  27. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Thumb up o7
     
  28. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Kind of ironic, because the only signal that Sam actually did acknowledge, didn't work correctly.
     
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  29. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    that is incorrect, blinking green with a number which is 9 or lower, should trigger a 1000hz when you are travelling over 90kmh
     
  30. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Active Member

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    Maybe I’m a PZB novice after all!

    Learning some interesting things here, like what you just mentioned nielsmallant100

    I’ve just done a run from Düren to Köln on the S-Bahn (S19) and there is 80km/h warning with two magnet in close proximity (I’m talking next to each other). I was doing under 75-80 at the time and pressed/released the PZB and nothing, which I thought was a bug.

    But it seems from what you are saying PZB is actually quite clever in the game as it won’t activate if you are doing under the 1000hz 85km/h depending on what the speed limit is? Is that correct?
     
  31. Cramnor

    Cramnor Active Member

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    There multiple instances where you have a Ks2v signalling a Ks2, which is wrong. When you start the journey, you see a Sh1 which is only used for shunting and not for train rides. So I wouldn't be surprised that PZB has its glitches involved.
     
  32. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    The Sh1 signals are a separate issue that's a lot more tricky to resolve for various boring technical reasons unfortunately.

    PZB should be working though.

    As regards 90kmh reductions causing 1000hz, that's news to me, people have been consistently adamant to me that 80kmh and under but not above. I'll do some more digging.
     
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  33. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I have no way to tell how it works in real life, but I can tell you for sure most 90Km/h signals give you a 1000 Hz magnet in TSW and TSW2.
     
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  34. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Staff Member

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    Yes im told it's supposed to trigger if you are doing 105km/h or higher, i'll make sure signal-team know :)
     
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  35. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/rindusi4.htm#GPE
     
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  36. jeanmarc094

    jeanmarc094 Active Member

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    i read that all signals under 100 need aknowledge. In SKA when near aachen, we slowing 140, 120, 100 and 70or40, whatever showing up. i only aknowledge the 70or40 on this part.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
  37. jeanmarc094

    jeanmarc094 Active Member

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    hmmm...
     
  38. davidbarber

    davidbarber Active Member

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    I can confirm I've also experienced an issue.

    Running the 'Commuter Confusion' scenario, heading East into Mammendorf, there's a reduced speed (80 kmh) signal, followed by a yellow. In both instances, 1000 Hz isn't activated despite travelling at approx. 150 kmh.
     
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  39. fabristunt

    fabristunt Member

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    In one of the streams you said there's a real driver of the line in the beta team. He could be a good source :)

    It's interesting to note though that the other issues went unnoticed :(
     
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  40. nielsmallant100

    nielsmallant100 Active Member

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    its definitely supposed to be 90kmh or lower causing 1000hz. And I believe, in most routes by DTG that is indeed the case. Just weird that in HMA, PZB doesn't care about some yellows or low speed reductions, but good that it's being looked into!
     
  41. Winzarten

    Winzarten Active Member

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    I just passed a flashing green with expected 90, while hauling 120kmh on Rapid transit, no 1000hz magnet. From my memories, only 80 and below required acknowledgement.
     
  42. cwf.green

    cwf.green Member

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    That's a bug. A yellow light would indicate the next signal is red and this requires 1000 Hz magnet activation. In the video the 85 light does not start flashing so either the light is bugged or the PZB is bugged.
     
  43. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    I think this thread illustrates how difficult it is for DTG to get some of these little things right, as the folks here can't even seem to agree on what should happen in some of these PZB situations.
     
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  44. Cramnor

    Cramnor Active Member

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    It should not be about what people agree on or not though... It should be about how the actual system works ;)
     
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  45. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Exactly the same issue. I don’t claim to be an expert (far from it) but based on all other TSW routes, at this signal I expected a 1000hz controlling magnet with a speed reduction to below 85kph. Having acknowledged it nothing happened.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  46. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    I thought I understood PZB but this route is telling me otherwise.

    I’ve just done the 1st non-ICE service in Journey mode and seen some stuff I really don’t understand. A number of yellow signals doing absolutely nothing when they’re acknowledged (I would have expected a 1000hz 85kph restriction), and then when approaching a red and crossing the 500hz magnet...again nothing.

    Is that right? Are there circumstances where a yellow aspect doesn’t trigger a restriction?
     
  47. 2martens

    2martens Member

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    I think this is a case of wrong signal aspect. What can happen sometimes is that you pass a proper yellow signal (next is red) but the next one shifts to green. In that case the 500 Hz magnet won't be active anymore.

    In reality you would continue with expectation to stop but as soon as you can see the next signal not being red, you can adjust accordingly.
     
  48. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    I'm a real train driver and i can confirm it is a bug, just tried the scenario now. The pzb system is not easy to understood and sometimes there are a lot of "grey area", but for a good recap, if is aspected a switch (yellow/green) you need to acknowledge it at the distant signal and decrease at the right speed indicated (or 40)
     
  49. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    The problem with the pzb is that is set to work with the hold german type of signals. With the new ones (like on the high speed line) if the yellow works as a main, you do not need to acknowledge it because you have done it at the distant before it, BUT if the new main works as a distant too you need to acknowledge it. It is a bit complicate with the yellow aspect but it is not so common in german like italy or UK.
     
  50. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to ack repeater signals
     

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