I'm having a bear of a time understanding how to properly use the safety systems in the ACS-64, ALP-46, etc on the NEC/Amtrak routes. I understand that the speed limit corresponds to the signal aspect, but as far as I can tell there's no advance warning of speed restrictions...
Why would you need an advance warning? If the speed limit changes, acknowledge the alarm and start slowing down, that is the point. As for speed restricitons caused by physical track speed limits, you need to know those either by wayside speed limit signs (if there are any) or by route knowledge.
Well, coming from the German routes, the distant signals warn of most upcoming restrictions, so you have time to slow down and not exceed the enforced limit. There doesn't seem to be such a thing with ACSES - you're cruising along at 100+ MPH, then the restriction suddenly drops to 60 or 45 without any prior warning.
Well, that signal change is in effect the prior warning: consider it the equivalent of a German Vorsignal. It means "start slowing down now; you have a finite amount of time to do it in."
US signals are (like UK) to enforce speed limits and correct driving speeds. German signals are there to guide you on what you need you need to do. I've over simplified somewhat but that's the general gist
I'm not sure I agree, because German signals (other than Zs3) don't tell the driver what do do. The system expects him to do it, and only tells him when he's done something wrong.
mostly, you have to learn the line in the US. Where speed limits are, what they are, signals, towers, etc. To be 'Qualified' to operate on line you have to learn all of this.
To a certain extent, yes...but when operating above 79mph there have to be electronic aids such as cab signaling and speed information, because it's really easy to miss a speed limit sign when you're going 125mph. Maybe I'm under the wrong impression of how ACSES works? I had thought that it was supposed to warn the driver of upcoming speed restrictions and allow a certain amount of time to slow below that limit, similar to the PZB braking curve...but it doesn't seem to do this, you'll hit a restriction with no advance warning, and it's nearly impossible to avoid penalty braking.
when the alarm goes off, bring your brakes to Suppression and hit Acknowledge. then your good. Brake until youre at the speed limit, resume and resume. Now with ACSES, theres a bar on the speedometers that start to reduce at an upcoming speed restriction, follow that curve with your braking. Yes, you can miss the wayside signs, but this is why here, they have you learn everything on the route and you use landmarks to know where. yes, you have to learn where speed restrictions start and end. I think the best way to describe the difference between German and US safety systems in general is German is proactive while the US is reactive.
In a technical sense it warns the driver of an upcoming speed restriction but the system is designed to enforce the driver's route knowledge, not to replace it. A good driver should already know where the upcoming speed restrictions are even when there are no trackside signs (which is extremely common, a practice I personally strongly disagree with) and will brake for the lower speed limit before ACSES enforces the penalty. Cheers
There's a lot of route knowledge involved when it comes down to speed limits so you brake in advance for those. Look at Brandon's tutorial for understanding the signals and the manual should also explain it if there is one. The signals themselves and what the adu tells you have set speeds as well so follow those and anticipate what is going to happen and react accordingly.
I think there is some confusion created by the way ACSES is presented in the game, especially in the HUD. When you hit the alert curve, the red overspeed bar lights up, and the blue bug flicks down, and the alarm sounds, which looks for all the world like you're speeding. But you aren't- not yet. It's really just like passing a yellow Lf6 speed reduction sign in Germany- but in PZB you get no indication of anything at this point (unless you fail to acknowledge), so it seems different. ACSES tells you "start braking;" PZB doesn't tell you to start braking, but you have to anyway. You aren't actually speeding until the red bug moves down, if you're still faster than that: that's the point where the new speed limit is in effect. (You can see this in less stressful circumstances at a speed increase: you'll notice the blue bug flicks up and the box changes speed, but the red bug stays at the former speed until the tail of your train passes the marker).
I am by no means an expert on NORAC/NEC signals so I will refrain from giving too much details regarding what signal aspects to expect in different situations (I'd just mess it up). However, I feel quite comfortable driving all the trains on NYT and BPE (and the Acela) with the safety systems enabled so maybe I can give some tips. 1. Forget about German safety systems or signals. The US signals are very different and the safety systems are very (to mildly) different. 2. There are no "distant signals" (afaik) but each signal will tell you what to expect on the next signal and what to do NOW. For example, before a stop signal (or stop and proceed) there will be an approach signal (three horizontal yellow lights). This aspect tells you to stop before passing the next signal. Before that there is usually an advance approach signal which tells you to stop before passing the second signal. In this sense the signals resemble the UK setup (green - yellow - double yellow). 2. ATC tells you what you need to do NOW upon passing a code change point (balises that are on the tracks both beside wayside signals and inbetween). They simulate the wayside (physical) signal logic so there will be a cab signal aspect in the cab and a corresponding speed you need to decelerate to without delay. 3. Depending on the equipment you are driving you will have 6-8 seconds to acknowledge the alarm and achieve permanent suppression upon a cab signal downgrade (more restricting aspect than previously). What permanent suppression means will vary slightly between equipment but usually it entails achieving at least a 16 psi reduction in the brake pipe. On the ACS64, Acela and Metroliner cab car you simply move the automatic brake handle (AB or ABCL) to the suppression notch. On trains with non self-lapping brake valves like the Multilevel cab car or the ALP46 you need to achieve a 16 psi reduction manually: move the AB to service and let the Equalizer Reservoir pressure (not brake pipe*) reduce to 94 psi or less and then lap (keep it in lap!). You must stay in suppression until reaching the cab signal speed limit (technically you can release at 3 mph above) or ATC will command a penalty brake application. 4. ACSES is an additional safety feature that prevents the train from over speeding. While ATC will only act on signal aspects (pulse codes) ACSES is fully continuous and will enforce brake curves to all track speed restrictions and also enforce positive train control for stop signals. When approaching a speed restriction, ACSES will calculate 3 brake curves. The "normal" brake curve, the alert curve and the penalty curve. The alert curve is always 3 mph above the normal brake curve and the penalty curve is 6 mph above. The normal brake curve is displayed on the ADU (panel with all the safety system indications) in the way of a reducing MAS (max authorized speed) number. Basically it counts the speed down to the new speed limit. If the engineer does not brake in time (or decelerates too little) the train will intersect the alert curve and you hear an aural alarm. At this point the engineer has to acknowledge the alarm and achieve suppression (described above). If the engineer is too slow in achieving these conditions or the train intersects the penalty curve then a penalty brake application is initiated by ACSES. 5. There are two types (at least, don't ask me for more lol) of "red signals". "Stop and proceed" and "Stop". You are allowed to pass the former (after stopping first, think a stop sign for your car) while the latter is like Gandalf. "Stop" signals protect interlockings and they will cause a game ending "Signal passed at danger". "Stop and proceed" signals will not. They are quite different in how the safety systems react to them. For "stop and proceed" signals ATC will stay at "Restricting" and ACSES will not do anything, while Stop signals have ACSES protection (i.e. you will get a penalty brake application if you approach the signal too fast) and there should be a "Time to penalty" number on the ADU that counts down. Iirc the ADU will still say "Restrict 20" until you either breach the brake curve or have stopped but I might be misremembering. 6. The ATC and ACSES have different alarm sounds. As you get more familiar driving you will recognize which safety system is telling you what just by the sound of the alarm. 7. When in doubt: check the ADU (or MFD on NJT rolling stock). It will tell you what to do. The easiest difference is that ACSES reduces the speed (MAS) continuously as you approach the new speed restriction while ATC just drops instantly. 8. Lastly: what is expected of you? Well since ACSES is protecting track speed restrictions you should optimally brake before the MAS reading starts to decrease but if you haven't, as long as you "catch up" to the reducing MAS you won't overspeed. For ATC you cannot (usually) predict what the next cab signal speed will be so you simply need to follow point 3. Knowing what ATC will do before it does it would imply that you know what the train in front of you (or the signaller) is doing. Of course IRL you might have a good guess based on experience, timetable and so on but ultimately, as long as you acknowledge and get to suppression before the time limit is up you are fine. *Why did I make a distinction between equalizer reservoir and brake pipe? Well the EQ res is what "tells" the brake pipe what to do, but the brake pipe reduces and increases in pressure slower than the EQ res. So if you make a brake application and the EQ res is at 90 psi then the brake pipe pressure might be at 100 psi. This means that if you lap when the brake pipe pressure is at 94 psi you will undershoot it by 5-10 psi leading to a much stronger application than necessary. Basically the BP lags behind the EQ. 9. Last last thing: Amtrak uses ACSES while NJT uses "ASES", they're basically the same. EDIT: You technically have more than 6 seconds to achieve permanent suppression (in reality, not sure if this is implemented in the game), at least on the Acela. The reason for this is that there is an initial 6 second time window to achieve temporary suppression and then a further 6 seconds to achieve permanent suppression. On the Acela temporary suppression means that the ABCL is in the SUP position and permanent suppression means that the deceleration rate is at least 1.2 mph/s or the brake pipe pressure is at 92-94 psi.
With NJT transit ALP-46, would moving the brakes to the service position achieve temporary suppression? I am struggling with using ASES as there is no suppression position in that loco, so I usually put the accelerator at max brakes and move the brakes to suppression. It works sometimes not to brake me but other times it brakes me to the point where the train stops and I have to start from 0 again. Can someone point me to how it works? The tutorial just says put brakes into suppression.
You have to apply brakes until your mr and bp is below 94 i believe. Then it lets you acknowledge. It'll stop your train quick if you don't release when it gets below speed limit and apply power right away but it does the trick
Lots of helpful info here. Just ran a Keystone service from NYP-Trenton with safety systems on and it was great fun- only got a penalty brake once just after exiting the hudson river tunnel, which was my own fault. A little clarification on speed controls: so this Keystone service had 3 stops: Newark Penn, Princeton Jct, and Trenton. Approaching Newark Penn and Trenton, i was slowed down on approach by the usual signal progressions, but there was no such progression approaching Princeton Jct- signals were Clear 125/MAS125 all the way to the station stop. I assume that Newark and Trenton have approach control because they're much busier stations, and also that Trenton is the southern terminus of the represented route? Stopping at Princeton Jct is down to route knowledge, then?
The correct way (from what I gather the real way) is to know the speed limit changes on the route by heart, so that you can prepare your speed drops well ahead of time before ever hearing anything from ACSES. We probably aren’t playing it enough to know these routes by heart but a alternative way (kind of a “cheat” but I think reasonable) is to use the HUD that tells you ahead of time about speed drops. For signal changes (ATC) you often won’t know ahead of time but the key is to put it in suppression and acknowledge. It doesn’t help though that there are currently some bugs complicating things. Such as a few erratic signals/speed changes as well as an issue with the Trenton ACS-64 and acknowledging.
I have no problem with using the HUD to simulate route knowledge I don't have, like I have no problem using a flying camera to simulate a brakeman in reversing moves. I haven't studied the route, passed an exam on it, and driven it every day for five years.
A basic overview of the two systems to hopefully provide some basic background and make it easier to understand the actual implementation…. ATC enforces block occupancy and turnout SIGNAL speeds. Generally, these are things that are not known in advance. ASES and ACSES (same system but different displays) is meant to enforce TRACK speed limits that are known to the engineer. Permanent speeds, temporary speed restrictions, etc… In normal operations, it is expected that the engineer operates the train prior to getting alerts and penalty enforcement. If you are using ACSES/ASES as a trigger to slow down, you’re doing it wrong. The two work together and the overall train system enforces the more restrictive (slower) of the two speeds. That is dynamic and can toggle back and forth between ACSES and ATC, whatever is slower.
Woow, super-amazing explanation. Thanks very much, helpful AF! ;-) I'm assuming on Harlem line, ACSES is not implemented in the same way, is it? 'Cause there passing a speed reduction point even 1 mph faster causes penalty brake. For example when exiting GCT: there's a 45 mph speed limit. Next it's 60 mph but then again shortly before the end of the tunnel, there's 45 again causing penalty brake anytime I go even a smidge faster than 45.
Make sure you apply around 60% brake for the m7a and acknowledge if you get overspeed. Whenever it gives you a lower speed, just slam on brakes and acknowledge until your speed falls below and then release. I've played it since release so as long as you are slowing down fast enough before the second alarm sounds, you will not get an emergency brake. For the m3a, I think you apply more brakes until the brake apply light comes on. Better to be safe than penalty braked so brake hard until you fall below
This is what I don't like. I'm big on running my train as smooth as possible. These safety systems don't allow enough time for a smooth, gradual brake increase to Suppression.
If it's ACSES, in other words a permanent line speed limit, you should know it's coming up and begin slowing well before ACSES kicks in - the system even gives you a "declining bug" like LZB. Even with ATC, the first signal may be a surprise (although, just as with PZB, you can usually see a yellow or a flasher 500 yards out); but after the first one, you should be able to anticipate the rest of the sequence.
Regarding suppression braking, I often read it than on the MBTA trains you need to put the brake handle into suppression position to avoid penalty braking and you should keep it in suppression until under the speed limit. But in TSW the suppression position of the MBTA rolling stock is basically full brakes, pretty much emergency braking territory - if you keep it in suppression and only release once you are under the speed limit, you are sure to stop on the spot. Surely that is not prototypical, is it? Usually I use around 50-60% braking and it also seems to "suppress" the alarm. Or just put it in suppression for a brief second then release, as by the time the brakes release, I am below the speed limit. Is suppression braking set up properly in the MBTA stock?
No no, you are describing the ATC restrictions. Like 45, 30 and 15 mph. These work fine for me. But when I drive northboung from GCT, in the tunnel, the right-most track, there's a 45 mph limit. Then it gets to 60 mph, which the game GUI tells me as well as in-cab. But shortly after that we go back to 45 mph limit and driving there even a smidge faster causes penalty brake with no warning whatsoever.
It's not service specific. That speed change goes for the two outermost tracks wether north or south.
I'm playing a service in harlem right now and the issue that is being discussed can be prevented. I see the 45 mph speed limit which then goes to 60 then down to 45 again according to the hud in the top right. There is enough distance to get down to 45mph after the speed being increased to 60 and I was able to avoid a penalty brake. You still have to acknowledge the speed change. For reference, I am playing on pc
Yeah, I leartned to keep at 45 the whole time. I try to play without HUD most of the time, so on my "dashboard" in my train I see 45, then 60 (which I know is a trap) and then 45 again with no warning in advance.
I have done the tutorials that show the ACTS but every time I reach a point after Newark Airport I get this happening. I cannot acknowledge the alarm and it will not let me recover the train, I asked around what it is but as part of the US rail industry is deemed as private/classified information.
Sorry for bumping this after so many months but I can't find anything from others about this so hopefully someone can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong with the Acela? I keep getting an overspeed penalty brake application regardless of how slow I am approaching the end of the platforms in Boston and Providence, even getting it on the East cove junction it's usually about 160ft from the signal before the train goes into suppression. I don't get this on any of the other trains just the Acela, it's getting annoying to be honest because I'm not overspeeding so I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Any suggestions other than turning the safety system off...
It is just possible that approach control into Trenton isn't quite implemented properly, since IRL the Acela doesn't stop there at all.
Trenton Acela update to enable enforcement of ACSES Positive Stop is causing this. Best workaround right now is to disable ACSES after leaving Back Bay.
oh wow... I have just watched Matt's tutorial video on ATC and ACSES and I have realized I knew almost zero about those... and since I rarely overspeed (technically yes when ATC limit drops), I have never even realized how ACSES even works... so here I am watching that stream, he is explaining... and I notice at certain point brakes kick in and he has to reset throttle... and I was like, how why what... does the game drive itself there? So then I tried Harlem and Trenton (since I noticed original LIRR didnt have ACSES implemented)... I tried with ATC only and then with both ATC and ACSES... and yeah I noticed that while ATC is HARD, aka you have to do what is says, otherwise penalty brake... ACSES starts beeping and if you do what it says it stops that, but if you keep speeding up, at around 6-7mph above its speed limit it automatically activates brakes and locks throttle I feel so dumb now lol
