Is There Any Interest In A German Db-era Steam Route Or German Historic Routes In General? [poll]

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by jolojonasgames, Nov 18, 2021.

?
  1. No, I'm only interested in modern German routes

    30 vote(s)
    17.2%
  2. No, I'm not interested in any German routes

    13 vote(s)
    7.5%
  3. Yes, I would like to see historic German routes

    111 vote(s)
    63.8%
  4. Yes, but only from a specific era (please specify below)

    5 vote(s)
    2.9%
  5. Not at this moment, but learning more about certain era's and locos might make me

    15 vote(s)
    8.6%
  1. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Hi all, as some of you might already know I make route suggestions from time to time. I have another one in the planning, which will feature the last of West-German mainline steam around the '70s (it's part of the Moselstrecke, featuring the BR 44, BR 23, BR 01 and BR 216 for those wondering). However I have noticed that a few of my previous route suggestions that feature historical German routes have performed dissapointing to say the least.

    The most comparable to the route I'm thinking of suggesting is my suggestion for the Preußische Ostbahn between Berlin and Cüstrin in the 1910's. The bad performance of this suggestion could be due to the fact that this part of German railway history doesn't get much attention anywhere when compared to for example the DB and DR post-war era. Of course I still think it's a very interesting route and era, and I strongly urge you to check out the suggestion :). However, it did make me wonder if there is any actual interest in German steam routes.
    Then there are two more historical German suggestions I made, the Main-Weser bahn from Frankfurt Hbf to Marburg (lahn), featuring a lot of S-bahn action, and the Saalebahn from Saalfeld to Naumburg, both set in the '90s. The lacking succes of these suggestions does still somewhat surprise me, as the era gets a lot of attention outside of the trainsim scene, in for example online railway forums and model railroading. It is also a very interesting era, with DB and DR merging and a large mixture liveries, design philosophies and rolling stock were present. The '90s also feature some well known locos, at the end of their working life. These are also locos and rolling stock I often see requested (such as the BR 103, BR 110, BR 111, n-Wagen, etc.). It therefore does surprise me that there seems to be so little interest in the TSW community for historic routes from this era.

    So my question is basically: is there interest in historical German routes, steam ones in particular? Why do you or why don't you find historic German routes interesting, and if you don't, what could be done to draw your attention to them? The results of the poll and your feedback will be very valuable for me, as it will help me make better suggestions, and skip suggestions that I don't think will generate a lot of interest.

    Edit: The suggestion for the Moselstrecke I mentioned is now out, please do check it out and support it :).


    Bonus picture of a BR 23 along the Moselstrecke
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2021
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  2. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Personally I wouldn't care much about it. But I bet there would be people interested in it.
     
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  3. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I'd love that! One of the reasons I'd like to see a German route in the 60s or 70s would be the sheer variety of rolling stock: steam locos, diesels, and Einheitseloks (as well as some Altbau-E-loks) all working side by side (though I guess your Moselstrecke will be set before electrification, right?). A lot of famous classes as well - lots of potential loco DLC.

    I think you hit the nail on the head. Personally, I wouldn't mind a route like this, but it's hardly the first thing I think of when contemplating what German vintage content I'd like to see in TSW.
     
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  4. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I would generally love to see more "historic" stuff in german TSW. Not necessarily steam (which we will probably get anyway). But some good old classics like the...

    BR 103 (with Rheingold wagen) (source)
    IMG_0153.jpg

    BR 110 (+ n-Wagen) (source)
    Locomotive_DB,_série_110_(451-2).jpg

    BR 141
    fuehrerstandansichtim-fuehrerstand-141-228-7-ex-304322.jpg

    Our most historic loco yet is the BR 155 (and also the 143/112), and I love the old school flair of it. I hope DTG (or a certain 3rd party dev) does some german classics soon, as we already have many iconic modern locos.
     
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  5. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    What I wouldn't give for any Einheitselok :D
     
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  6. Horizelux

    Horizelux Well-Known Member

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    Constantly producing modern German routes, which is what DTG primarily does at the moment, has its advantages for being more standardised and consistent, hence it allows us players to already know the primary feel of the route in advance, because we already have plenty of it.

    Now coming to older German routes, its more of a slight gamble and one that involves a slight risk, knowing if you would have players to buy the route as much as its modern counterpart, however I'm sure it would attract more various types of crowds (looking at you, NTP TVL fans). However, it would break the never ending cycle of new, modern, red locos which mostly look, sound and feel as if they all were made by one person. Its better to have more variety, and from the perspective of a train enthusiast, it works out. (Lets not forget about the thrilling and actually fun to drive older stock, compared to the red bricks that are today's modern locomotives)

    In short, its better to make 4 modern routes and 2 older ones, rather than making all 6 modern.
     
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  7. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Yes it would be set before electrification, so sadly no Einheits or pre-war E-loks. There still is sufficiënt variety (but also not too much, meaning a selection of 3-5 locos accompanied by fitting rolling stock would already give a full timetable). Great to hear there is some interest in such a suggestion :).
     
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  8. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I think I would probably prefer classic diesels and electrics to a steam era route, but maybe something in the transition period might suit.
     
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  9. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    I'd be happy with anything that is not a modern passenger line would be amazing. Whatever era or locos, just something different please.
     
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  10. JealousSheep768

    JealousSheep768 Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see the era just after reunification with all the paint schemes
     
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  11. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Yes the 1950s West Germany with the Steam Locomotives together with DB BR110 which was part of the Standard Electric locomotive program including the electrification of Main Spessart Bahn 1954-1957. RRO RSN 1960s. Post-war Germany would look different because most of the electric 15kv 16.7hz are in West Germany. East Germany had few of them due to the Russians taking them as War reparations possibly using the equipment on their 25kv 50hz lines
     
  12. jonathayts#5342

    jonathayts#5342 Member

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    And don't forget we haven't got any classic Bundesbahn electrics yet (110, 140, 151, 111, etc)
     
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  13. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You mean Standard Electric locomotives 110 139 140 & 141 111 1970s. The DB BR110 operates on RRO
     
  14. jonathayts#5342

    jonathayts#5342 Member

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    Fair point and such locos are more likely being picked up by a third party rather than dtg.
     
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  15. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Yes please.
    Unlike the US/UK content we have, the DE content is all very modern. Could use a few old electrics and diesels (we don't have a lot of German diesels anyways).

    As for steam, yes please. I know it's a personal taste, but I think German steam locomotives look considerably better than their UK/US counterparts.
     
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  16. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Oh and while we're on German history, I also would be interested in a historic route during Germany's wartime. Just because it's one of the darker chapters of history, doesn't mean it needs to be forgotten. But I know it's a sensitive subject...
     
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  17. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I've voted for the modern as I prefer them more but I would like to see more older trains too
     
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  18. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    The 218 is a classic german legend, which can be seen even today. Infront of IC-Coaches and Dostos. So it would perfectly fit into modern timetables as well. I am actually very sure at some point the 218 will come because DTG made it for TS and delivered it with IC coaches. And I think at some point also TSG said that the 218 is something he consideres.-Let's see what he is up to after doing the Ludmilla. I hope we know his next loco DLC after the release of the G6 :)
     
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  19. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Well, actually, as I'm a child of the 80s, I would love to see some route in that era. Not only the locos, but also the fancy stuff like VT98 trainbuses or ETA 150 BOMUs. I still think, that at some point, with the communities appetite for new gameplay/locos, there aren't that much modern locos left, that would feel 'new'. As DTG seems to use every route they make as a 'kind of 'door-opener' to a next route, there is some hope, that with the 612, we will get eventuell a diesel route next, with the 612 and probably a 218 then, which could eventually then be used alongside a 110 on a vintage route, probably.
     
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  20. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Yes please to early German diesels!
     
  21. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Yes with the caveat that i'm more interested in diesel power. Steam isn't my thing.
     
  22. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  23. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Anything Historic from Germany would be very welcome, especially if steam or diesel. Looking forward to TSG's Ludmilla.
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I would be happy with anything from the Bundesbahn era 1954-94
     
  25. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You mean DB BR420 151 141 140 139 110 363 361 362 212 those were the predominant locomotives in West Germany
     
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  26. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately the German community, according to the surveys DTG have done, really aren't interested in old stuff, mostly because the playerbase is younger than those for other countries. I can count the amount of pre-2000 German routes for TS on my hands, assuming there are any at all...
     
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  27. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I suspect the 420 if/when it ever gets released will be a test of the water on this. I remember travelling on one from Koln to Dusseldorf Airport back in 1983 or thereabouts. The vintage scene is definitely of interest to us older generation, who started expanding our interest from "bashing" in the UK during the early 80's, to travelling around continental Europe instead.
     
  28. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Well, Germans aren't the only people buying German content. Doing a survey just within the German community is kinda pointless in my opinion.
     
  29. shamanspark

    shamanspark Member

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    The 420 is my childhood homie and i will buy it instantly!
     
  30. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Well-Known Member

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    Anything that isn't modern would be very welcome.
     
  31. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Yeah true, the 420 is just a very different experience from the "modern" 423 or 422 or the TRAXX locos. They are fine as well. But I think driving the 155 is way more fun than the 185 though the 185.5 is a fine loco as well.
     
  32. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Well, 1954 to 1994 is quite a long time with a even wider range of locos...as in 1954 you still would had seen mostly pre-war refurbished repaired rolling stock, like the BR 01, 03, 38.10,44, 50, E18, E 94,

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    While about 10 years later, you could have seen more and more let's call it 1st Gen DMUs and locos instead of the steamers, like VT 08, VT 11.5, VT 95, V160, V200 so forth and so on...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    As of 1974, ateam-locos would have been almost gone, and your mentioned locos would be very common, even though you didn't mention the BR 103, which would be a big mistake...

    In 1984 '2nd gen' locos and MUs , like BR 111, 120, 218, 628 could be seen more and more...
    [​IMG]
     
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  33. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for telling me about West Germany but in East Germany DDR Deutsche Reichsbahn still have steam locomotives upto 1988. Meaning you have a DB BR103 110 end service at Helmstedt Station Köln-Rhein Ruhr Osten Hannover route & Ludwigsstadt Berlin Nürnberg-München route because of East Germany having a slower pace of 15kv 16.7hz wires than West Germany.
     
  34. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    That's true - but they're the majority. If you look on the Train Simulator, you can count all of the classic German routes, but I wouldn't bother because (spoiler alert) there aren't any. There are also just two German steam locomotives for TS that were made by Dovetail... As much as I'd like classic German content, there is no business case for it, as demonstrated in the 14 years we've had of Train Simulator.
     
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  35. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Well there is also some German steam stuff by romantic railroads which isn't on Steam. But still, I can't believe Germans are the majority: after all we are talking about one country vs the rest of the world...
     
  36. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    Americans are usually most interested in American routes, Germans in German routes, British people like British routes the most... It's just how it is.
     
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  37. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I think you should understand that there is a difference between an absoloute majority and a relative majority. Nobody said that german player are more than 50% of ALL train sim players in the world. We're talking about the relative share. So "one country vs the rest of the world" is not the right narrative.
     
  38. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    I don't really kow, what you mean, but I guess you're kinda right. The allied administration of Berlin only gave the permission to operate trains in Berlin (West) to the Deutsche Reichsbahn, so there was a loco-change at the border station in Western Germany. For some ideological reasons the east german government gave an order in the mid 70s, that West Berlin should only be served with diesel-traction, so from about 1975 you'll only see BR 132 ('Ludmilla' later 232) and BR 119 ('U-Boot', later 219) in Westberlin.

    [​IMG]

    These locos took the train to Schwanheide, Helmstedt, Hof and Ludwigsstadt, where a DB-Loco took the train over to München, Köln, Hamburg, etc. An even stranger thing was with the trains to Frankfurt, which were hauled by a diesel-loco until Dessau, then changed it to an east germen electric until Gerstungen, where a west german 216/218 took the train over until Bebra and then a west german electric (I guess a 110) took over for the last part of the journey.
     
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  39. tibomatthijs

    tibomatthijs Well-Known Member

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    I would deff like to see some older German Routes! Rheingold era f.e. it was an lovely era with lot of nice and interesting trains!
     
  40. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but again, there aren't just those three countries in the world. I live in Italy, but regularly buy German and British content. Are you and matinakbary telling me that the number of Germans buying German content is higher than the number of people who buy German content but come from all other 190+ countries?
    I just can't believe that, it doesn't make sense. People not from US/UK/GER still buy TSW content, even if their country isn't featured.
     
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  41. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You mean the Ruhr Sieg Nord DB BR232 in the original DDR Paint. If Frankenwald line does come to the Game you're going to get DB BR110 DB BR103 to Ludwigsstadt Probstzella Border Station. DR BR132 119 Probstzella Leipzig. Regarding DDR Electric lines The existing DB BR155 DR BR250 does both freight and Intercity.
     
  42. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    No no, either you got me wrong or I got you wrong. However, that's actually an interesting question.
     
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  43. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Well, looking at the poll, it seems like two out of three people who are interested in german routes would be interested in vintage eras. I think even the last DTG survey in August was kind of uncomfortable. There was a question about, if you would prefer modern vs. vintage. I may remember that I had answered with modern, even though that means I wouldn't totally reject buying vintage german routes. It was somehow like being asked 'Would you prefer sitting in an air conditioned cab in a TRAXX against standing without any shelter on the Adler or Saxonia while there is a blizzard? '

    I guess i'm not the only one who would answer that question in the way I did. Maybe the farther you go back, the lesser the interest would be. BR 103, n-Wagen and so forth aren't that long gone and there might still be some german railfans that had travelled on, 'touched' it in real life and they're maybe curious about how it would feel to drive that stock in real life...
     
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  44. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I can't say that it definitely in the case, but the majority of people buying German DLC are German people. One large group is more important than lots of smaller ones, so while I'd love old German content, the general German playerbase just aren't that interest. DTG only made two German steam locos for TS, and only one of which was released separately. Third parties increase the number of old German content, but that's up to them. From DTG's position, there is little incentive to make this sort of content, although I suspect SoS will have old German content to test the water.
     
  45. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    DtG may probably just bung retro stock on a modern route like they did with GWE.
    I'm half German does that count?
     
  46. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Helmstedt was electrified in 1976 1950 1951 Probzstella Ludwigsstadt.
     
  47. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    Hi all, it's been longer then I had hoped, as I've been very busy, but I've finally gotten around to make my suggestion for the Moselstrecke, a route that features great scenery, long freight trains, fast express trains, and a selection of interesting Steam and Diesel rolling stock. I hope you all enjoy it! :)
     
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