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It's Like A Bad Relationship

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by argyle_smurf, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. argyle_smurf

    argyle_smurf Active Member

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    The thing that bothers me the most about all of this is that I know for a fact that I'll be paying the £35, probably at or soon after the first release.

    I want London Brighton, I want NEC. I could sit here spitefully holding out for a 50% sale, and then I would spend nearly as much and not get the products for probably six months.

    But I really wanted Dresden. I was so excited at finally getting something that was hinted at with HRR, a living network, busy routes, multiple options. I'm so disappointed with this humiliating climb down that I now want nothing to do with it, but I'm going to end up stuck with it anyway.

    Where's the option for me to vote with my wallet? To tell DTG in a loud, steady voice that this has finally broken my support of the company. I've defended them to the hilt, and this is it now, I'm done. But there's no competitor product, and if I simply stop patronising DTG then it will be me that suffers.

    They tell us that they listen, but they don't hear. How many times do we get "we know" as a response to a complaint? How many times do we get told "we've learned our lessons"?

    And now, what they take out of this situation is that the fault is too much communication. Is this the first step to disappearing back behind the curtain? Are we on the road, so to speak, to losing roadmaps and just getting random DLCs chucked in our direction every now and then?

    I've spent hundreds. I've got nearly everything they've released for TSW1 and 2. I hate it. And I'll still buy Rush Hour.

    I guess this means they win.
     
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  2. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    As long as more people are willing to put up with dtg nonsense behavior those of us in the minority don't stand a chance,those who want to continue to defend dtg bad business practices behavior only show how little they care about what they buy as long as they have something to spend there money on,even if may or may not work correctly.

    DTG has 0% competition in the train sim market,mainly on consoles so they have 0 reasons to do it better for them.So where all left with whatever they decide to sell us.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  3. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I can feel you, stuck with the same problem. I don't want to buy it, i want it to be better, but I know that i will eventually buy it because it is me "suffering" and there is really no other option. I really appreciate that DTG is not abusing that *sarcasm off*
     
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  4. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    I must reluctantly accept I’m the same. I want BML and Boston-Providence. I don’t want to buy Riesa-Dresden unless the branches come with it, but if I don’t buy the season ticket, I’m cutting off my nose to spite my face. Especially as the two routes I still want are unlikely to be discounted to like £12 each anytime remotely soon.
     
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  5. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I think Sam hit the nail on the head last night if I recall correctly. This has in part been driven by the bean counters
     
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  6. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    Bean counters are NO fun.
     
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  7. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    …and the only way to stop it is to STOP GIVING THEM YOUR MONEY.
     
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  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Driven by the bean counters on one side and the people on forums who want everything they can get for almost no input... 6 of one and ½ a dozen of the other...

    One thing I agreed with Sam on. They shouldn't be saying what their INTENTIONS are until they're sure that's what they're going to do, in other words we should know about routes upcoming when they're in beta testing rather than research.
    If they'd have said "Hey, you're getting rush hour with new passengers, routes in London, Boston and Dresden and stay tuned for more" we would be guessing on route lengths and consists rather than spitting out our coffee because a couple of branches aren't coming soon
     
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  9. argyle_smurf

    argyle_smurf Active Member

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    Yes, but that hurts me, likely far more than it hurts them. If there's only one place within walking distance that serves food, would you starve rather than pay more than you'd like to for the wrong flavour sandwich?
     
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  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it is true. If they hadn't announced Rush Hour when they did we would now be getting comments like, "DTG have gone quiet", "why are DTG not telling us what is next" ad-infinitum. It is what has happened before. They have probably shot themselves in the foot by announcing too early. The "community" will never be satisfied whatever happens.

    That option is always there! You are in control of your own money.
     
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  11. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    It’s still very much a ‘wait for a sale’ purchase for me. I only wanted 1 route and the reason I looked forward to it is the bit they cut. So the 3 routes at a bargain price doesn’t really work for me.

    I can live without it now and if it’s really good I’ll buy it stand alone in a sale.

    The number of people that will totally boycott it will be very small and I doubt it will hurt DTG.

    The thing is we all love trains and the reason we are upset is because we are passionate about TSW and want it to be good and therefore I understand why people will buy it anyway.

    Let’s hope what we get is a good product that’s worth the money.
     
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  12. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    I sympathise fully with the vote with your wallet idea. If the Dresden dlc was a standard route being released at any other time of year, then it would be a good approach.

    As it stands, I still want the other two routes... as will many others in the community. Therefore, I will end up buying the season pass to save money.

    It was mentioned in the stream last night, that a dent in sales of a particular dlc will be looked into carefully at DTG as to why. However, with this summer release, the sales are going to be skewed, as anybody wanting two of the three DLCs will buy the season pass to save money.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  13. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They also have stats on who PLAYS what routes etc, so even if people get he season pass they don't have to play the route...
    There's more than one way to skin a statistical cat
     
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  14. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    I think the root of the problem is they announced the branches from the start. Had they not, I doubt we'd have been much the wiser. They seem adamant on saying exactly what we're getting, whereas I'm sure people would be content with them saying they're building a mainline, and then it's only found out in the preview streams that they also included a branch line. It's what happened with Cathcart and while it frustrated and even worried some people, all those worries went unfounded and people were pleasantly surprised. That's just my view though.

    Also effectively comparing this to domestic abuse is very extreme.
     
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  15. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    The problem is we've had a year of "no details on that, not set specifically, we will tell you when we know, don't know yet, we don't want to set expectations" etc. constantly. So when after all that time they come and say "we're making this, there's going to be this and this, it will cost this and come in summer", after all that time you'd think they know THIS pretty well. Oops they didn't.
     
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  16. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    To be fair here, it wouldnt have mattered what DTG would have done. They decided to announce BRD and had to cut it down and the outrage is legitimately there. But what if DTG wouldnt have announced anything? Then people would complain about intransparency and we would have another but different outrage. There is a phrase: "No matter what we are doing, we are doing it wrong".
     
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  17. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    "Rush Hour will contain an NEC Boston route, Brighton Mainline and Dresden-Riesa with various rolling stock, details coming soon"

    Relatively transparent and no false promises.
     
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  18. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    You do see that this way. But you should know that this community can be VERY toxic. Yeah, I think a lot of people would have said "Thats enough of information" BUT: at some point they would have asked for more info.
     
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  19. keksman

    keksman Well-Known Member

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    Thats what ive always been saying. No alternative so they are milking it to the limit.

    But its getting worse and worse so you should ask yourself if you really want to post the same thing next year about another price increase or try set an end to it. I know its hard, its a great hobby afterall and Im talking out of experience but if you keep on buying their stuff the situation will never improve. Try to search for something else you are enthusiastic about, pretending tsw was cancelled like flight sim world.

    Sure it might feel like your pretty much just hurting yourself with that decision, but what do you think would happen if the community would hold together and cause a 50% decrease in sales? It would force dtg to act only in favor for us customers. Remember when they wanted to release the DB BR 182 to the totally bugged rapid transit map? And the community revolted against it and voted with their wallet? They ended up fixing most game breaking bugs like the bugged pzb and the same thing would happen this time too if we would hold together and vote with our wallet.
     
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  20. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    There are alternatives. Just saying. Zusi 3 for the german content. Run8 for american content. MSTS and/or Open Rails for general content. You just need to accept that every Sim is different. And if you dont want to accept these games as alternatives, then maybe, just maybe, DTG and TSW isnt doing that bad right?
     
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  21. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I just think money will speak the loudest.
     
  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    March : Rush Hour will be a bundle of three routes, commuter focussed, with updated passenger action, faces and clothes and the whole feel will be busier
    May : We're making routes based in London, Boston and Dresden... where do you think or want them to go?
    June : The London route is going to Brighton!
    July : full route explanation release (ie when they actually know)

    In the meantime we've had other route releases, the catch up on UE4.26 etc

    Yes, some people would want to know all to begin with, but some people need to learn anticipation and patience
     
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  23. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Of course it does, but hopefully Sam also speaks loudly and asks people when they had their frontal lobotomies...
     
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  24. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    I really appreciated Sam being on the stream last night. He voices our concerns with a no-nonsense approach and never skirts around the difficult questions. There was a real atmosphere of the decisions being made from above, with the three guys having to face the public for poor managerial decisions. I felt a bit sorry for them being placed in that situation. I'm confident that with people continuing to express their concerns, and their support, our frustrations will be made very clear
     
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  25. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    You literally could see them being disappointed. And this is why we might stand of "bashing" or harshly critizing the devs. Because its not the devs that make the decisions. Its the managers. And from these ones I have never seen one answering questions on stream.
     
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  26. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    Fully agree with you. They are the faces of DTG but not the overiding decision makers. The disappointment was clear and genuine. I don't like it when people bash with "lazy" Etc. People can be more objective and express their concerns in a less personal way.
     
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  27. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Nice Cherry-picking.

    The Steam Store and a few other places said we'd have a '65 mile route' with those branches.

    The streams have been saying it was likely to be the best route yet, and hyping people up over the branches etc.
     
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  28. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    No, the quote was what they could've said to keep the damage to the minimum. They didn't. We know what they did...
     
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  29. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Is the Senior Producer for TSW not a manager?

    "The Senior Producer supervise the game production making sure mandate is clear, proper production management methods are in place, game quality expectations are met & games are released on schedule."
     
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  30. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    I think it's those above that focus on business decisions, which ultimately impact production decisions.
     
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  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The more salient question for me would be who decided in railfan to put out what routes were included, and who decided to put out the extent and scope of the routes on all channels
    We know who decided to rein things back, but the remainder now needs addressing
     
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  32. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    matt seemed flat for a bit and Sam had that pi**ed off being thrown under the bus and having to pick up the pieces vibe again
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  33. lukereynolds1

    lukereynolds1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes of course, those responsible are the root of the problem and that needs looking into seriously
     
  34. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Never seen the good cop, bad cop routine? (Sam/Matt)
    Only one with any credibility yesterday was the guy in the middle, JD is it?
     
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  35. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You're kidding, right?
    The only reason that might be the case is he was ASKING rather than ANSWERING...
    Lest we forget it was JD and Matt who started this whole thing off at Railfan
     
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  36. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    No, Sam just wants everyone to think he's your best mate because he asks semi awkward questions. He makes out he's only a community manager, but I believe he's higher up the DTG food chain than he'd have you believe.

    Matt looked like he just didn't want to be there at all. Was that through disappointment, guilt? Who knows.
     
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  37. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but not the managers we're talking about. The managers we're talking about are the ones that just sit in offices looking at graphs.

    While I ultimately think it was Matt who decided to rein the project in (he realised it'd be undeliverable), he most likely would've been put between a rock and a hard place by the higher ups (who probably also decided on the price increase and season ticket).
     
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  38. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any proof for that? If not, stop speculating and assuming something you cant proof. We dont need any fake or half-fake stuff in here.

    Besides that, Sam always asks the beefy question that might are uncomfortable.
     
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Sam was temporarily CM until JD bedded in. Was said many many times.
    Sam DOES answer all the "unfortunate" business questions, because he's the one who can sit there and give some straight up answers without looking like a puppy-dog that's been kicked in the behind (unlike Matt who did look like that last night)

    Matt is a senior producer and has very much more responsibility in what gets produced than people seem to credit him with.
    Either way, I'm sure that putting out "We're going to make this" and then being told "no you're not, because yet again you've overreached" has affected Matt much more than Sam
    And being the one in Railfan who was community director and made the announcement in the first place...?

    Of the three I think Sam comes out with a bit more credibility on this specific issue as he wasn't at Railfan making announcements of things not set in stone.

    Another thing on the matter of credibility, if you're "community director" and leading the "how the hell did we mess this up?" Q&A JD should have had all the answers before the stream went live, so no messes of "who's answering this question from a week ago then?"

    Maybe I expect too much
     
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  40. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    It's my opinion, I don't require any proof but he has changed his job title on the forums from "Community Manager" to "Dovetail Special Projects".

    As for don't need speculation etc, the forums are full of speculation and aspirations.
     
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  41. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    I have edited the title slightly. Abusive relationships are very serious and although I understand your reason behind your title, it's best not to downplay how real and how devastating abusive relationships can be.


    Don't forget Dovetail is much larger than the regular faces you see on Railfan TV. No decision will ever be made by just one person.
     
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  42. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Sam explained that he works on special projects now. So what? Doesnt mean he is now on a higher level. Only means he is now on a different place in the company jobwise.

    Also thank you Nat.
     
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  43. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I accept your reasons for changing the title, it now bears no resemblance to the reasoning behind the initial title. Maybe "it's like a bad relationship" would have been more acceptable?

    On the plus side, at least you didn't lock the thread....yet!
     
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  44. argyle_smurf

    argyle_smurf Active Member

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    Accepted, and I apologize. Can I at least have "bad relationship" though?
     
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  45. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    Sure, will change it for you now.
     
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  46. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    I was just thinking wouldn't "incorrectly colored track ballasts counters"(aka gravel) better fit this train game?
     
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  47. pinxtonpaws

    pinxtonpaws Guest

    ....and then climbs down once they've been asked.
    (*loosely quoted*..and apologies in advance for my cynicism)

    Regarding the price hike: "People are angry and have every right to be....but if you want stuff that's released in fit for purpose condition you have to pay more for it"

    Regarding the missing branches: "People are angry and have every right to be....but that's just the way it is, you get what you get"

    The Jekyll and Hyde self justification ("tough luck") thing was actually quite painful to watch.
     
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  48. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, you cant shoot the messenger here. The fact he says things like "The people have every right to be angry" is more honest and admitting than any big company like EA could do. Big companies would push their PR-Managers forward and these would say: "You are angry? But look, you get these fancy lootboxes,microtransactions etc... pp, how dare you to complain?"

    You can critizice the way DTG manages things like route and feature announcement but you cant call them out for not cowarding out of the deal. Because if that would be the case, TSW would look entirely different. And DTG wouldnt talk to us at all.
     
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  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No. He's really more the shop foreman, keeping the line workers at their jobs. He isn't the bloke in a suit with the ledgers.
     
  50. Oli R C

    Oli R C Member

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    And actually, there are a couple of other alternatives, in TramSim and Hmmsim Metro.

    Granted, they are niche, and you could probably equate each of them to one TSW DLC, however they are both in Early Access, but are light years ahead of TSW in sound and lighting. TramSim has fantastic door controls which even if we had a tram in TSW we wouldn't get. Also has a depot and cold starts. Hmmsim Metro is getting a substantial extension to the route in the coming months, but is already great fun to play. Has functional in cab signalling, station signalling and stop mark countdown. Stuff that we'll never see in TSW.

    Then there's Sim Rail, when it comes...
     
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