Köln-aachen Stream Notes

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Monder, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    So I just wanted to share a few things I noticed during the stream, both good and bad (mostly details). I would also like to invite everyone to throw in more (in case Sam doesn't make a dedicated post, while I'm writing this...)

    Good:
    - Nearly perfect ICE3 sound including the door slam, Talent sound has seen some great improvements though some people mentioned the horn is a bit weird
    - LZB looks amazing and although I am not a train driver, it does seem to do exactly what a "smart" safety system should.
    - HUD - I like the amount of new information including doors, interlock etc., all time-related things in one corner help as well
    - Tunnels on this route seem somehow way better than all previous, maybe it's the lights, but they're really cool.

    Bad:
    - Towards the end of the stream (even as Sam pointed out), there seems to be the wrong door in one of the ICE3 cars - 1st class door in 2nd class car - not only the marking on them but they're off centre, whereas 2nd class doors as centred because of the 2-by-2 seat arrangement
    - As much as I like trains being louder outside, it seemed to be ear-ripping here on a couple of instances, especially the arrival of dostos at the ICE3 service start. This might be a game setting, but would be nice to get mentioned.
    - Basically a nitpick, but the gradient on the HUD seems to be a bit too large given how space-efficient the rest is to the point of sometimes being almost too small. Maybe making the pictogram a bit smaller and the gradient number a bit larger would help.

    Speculation:
    - Is the accelerometer still nearly "pixel-fine"? Although it was very simple in TSW, you could really well set the throttle to put it in the perfect centre. The new one seems a bit rougher, but I can only judge from the stream.
    - Sam didn't walk all the way through the Talent 2 interior, but I haven't noticed the 1st class and (correct me if I'm wrong) 442s on this line do have those.
    - On the outside FIS at the beginning of the stream is "Köln" supposed to be stuck in the "Via:" section? (don't know this one myself)


    That's all I remember of the top of my head. As I said, feel free to throw in more and let's discuss what we saw today.
     
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  2. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Some excellent points.
     
  3. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    Those are the really bad things about the new HUD in my opinion.
     
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  4. Herr_MrSir

    Herr_MrSir New Member

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    I think I saw the 1st class "cabin" all the way at the back of the train.
    Edit: It is quite difficult to see it properly, but I recognized the yellow stripe on the outside of the train which indicates the 1st class.
    I ride this RE9 service very often in real life, so I was actually convinced that Köln isn't supposed to be stuck there. Now after some time, I am not exactly sure anymore, but considering the fact that the train was already in Düren at this point, it would make no sense that Köln would be still on it.

    What I noticed about the signal and speed limit system is, that if a signal gives you a speed limit, this speed limit also starts with this signal. In the stream, the speed limit didn't change even after the signal until just in front of the switches.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  5. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    My only criticisms is that the 250km/h / LZB section of the route does seem rather short and is over way too quickly...and it would be nice to see a few speed fluctuations along the quick part (not just at the end before it switches over to PZB)

    Regarding the HUD, I'm not sure if I am completely sold on it yet tbh...it seems like some elements of it take up too much space whereas others are too small. I know it's something I will adapt to of course, but just initial impressions

    Other than these, the route seems solid (If not a little short for a high speed route). Looking forward to seeing Bakerloo in action

    Also pre-ordered this morning and nice to see a15% discount for previous owners
     
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  6. praxidike.meng

    praxidike.meng Well-Known Member

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    It was a positive experience most of the time. My complaints are centered around sound mostly (nothing big):
    - the Talent 2 in-cab running sounds at its top speed aren't very convincing and the way they are looped can be clearly heard;
    - the same can be said for Talent's horn - the loop is clearly heard;
    - ICE3M running sounds while in external camera is just weird - whiney is the best word I could come up with;
    - non-sound related but still: the catenary. It's there and it does its job, but that's all. Especially around Koln it is severely lacking in detail. I would really like if DTG put in some more effort to detail it in the upcoming routes.

    Otherwise I was satisfied with the presentation. The models look good (I especially liked subtle front window reflections of light in ICE3) and the destination displays on the trains. Route looks interesting, although I couldn't enjoy the details too much because of high speed of these trains. It will be good to drive some heavy freight trains and just take in the scenery.
    All in all, looking forward to this one.
     
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  7. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I am going by what Matt said (speed below - "incoming", speed above - "from this point") and as I now checked the Aachen arrival again, it does seem to not follow its rules multiple times. You have 10 above and 100 km/h begins 300m behind, 4 above and 70 km/h begins at that point... it does seem weird on the second look.
    I think this is an issue with what route has been picked, but when you ride it, the train will stick to 250 and not fluctuate, so it might be a bit boring, but I'd say it's accurate.
     
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  8. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    One other thing I forgot to mention and did stick out like a sort thumb for me was the LCD screens in the cab (I forget the actual name of those)....when you switch from external cam back to internal..there is a noticeable lag before they appear. If it happened once I would have written it off but it did it every single time

    I don't recall this happening in TSW2020
     
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  9. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    He did say that he wasn't trying to give a full PZB tutorial. The confusion lies in that, if you pass a yellow signal in O (passenger) mode, you must slow down to 85km/h within 23 seconds or the emergency brakes will apply. I think Matt misspoke when he said 70km/h, as that would be the rule under M (light freight) mode.
    So yes, while there is an oncoming speed limit posted at 40km/h at the next signal, the first yellow signal actually tells you to slow down at least below 85km/h within 23 seconds. Matt was just trying to prevent Sam from triggering the emergency brakes without having to explain of the rules in a short window of time.
     
  10. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know PZB tries to gradually slow you down before the limit, but I was talking about the signals themselves and the speeds you can see in the top right corner, those are not affected by what PZB does inside the vehicle.
     
  11. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    TBH, I liked pretty much all that I saw. There are only a couple of things that I didn't like:

    1. No LZB on the Talent 2. They shouldn't cut this kind of thing and make it all work. You might not use it in this route with the "default" services, but we have the editor now. You could even use it in a future DLC.
    2. We didn't see PZB in action for the whole route (1st trip with the Talent 2). PZB is one of the most buggy systems in TSW1, and I would feel much safer after seeing it work flawlessly in the whole route in TSW2 with my own eyes. Not trying to be disrespectful, but the PZB implementation in Rapid Transit was an epic fail.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
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  12. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    You're correct. I rewatched that specific section, and the speed limit sets to 70 despite the white 40 above the signal just before Aachen. That is incorrect.
     
  13. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the 40 was the signal speed? Linespeed being irrelevant in this case?
     
  14. olegzov

    olegzov New Member

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    As i have more casual look on TSW2, it's sims just upgraded version TSW2020. And with much more possibilities "under the hood", due to UE4.23 But changes Level of detail and shadows still apperaring near 50-100 meters ahead the train :| I STILL!!! hope, that the graphics will be upgraded as well, and not in 2022 :) Maybe on starting next gen. console for example ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
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  15. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    It's a bit confusing, but although 40 is the speed posted by the signal, that is technically the "line speed" per se. It functions like a regular speed limit sign would, it's just dynamic. Per PZB rules, the signal indication provides a limited amount of speed information in the form of, "if it's green, continue at line speed. If there's any yellow (including a green/yellow), slow down to 85/70/55 km/h (depending on your train type) within 23 seconds of passing the yellow, because there is a speed reduction ahead and you need to be slow enough to react."
    It's nowhere near as complex as signal speeds like on the Caltrain route, but it's similar.
     
  16. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    1. From what I understand LZB and PZB working in combo, where under 160km/h trains use the PZB system and for train that can operate over the 160km/h (so Intercity and high speed trains only) like they entering in a LZB route the system switching automatically from PZB to LZB. Now, Talent 2 max permitted speed is 160km/h, so, from what I understand it always operating under PZB system (also over an LZB route).

    2. At least the 50% of PZB "bugs" are mistakes of the train driver. The only route with PZB broken (so unplayable) it was Rapid Transit, but DTG has been fixed it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
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  17. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    1. The short LZB part: for me this is OK, doing noting except pressing SIFA is boring. It reminds me of one of my first drives in an ICE3 for Cologne to Utrecht. We were sitting after driver (which is an awesome experience) and at a moment a conductor entered his cab. He was chatting with the conductor, leaving his eyes of track for a long time. This felt a bit scary. Later I learned about LZB and thta this was completely safe. So the opaque window maybe useful not to scare passengers.
    2. In TSW, also RT my feeling is that PZB is working reasonable well. My assumption for TSW2 is that it will not be worse.I am not an expert but I took some time to find out how it works and I almost always turn it on.
     
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  18. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Don’t forget, the game was a developer version and not the version we’ll get in our actual hands. They mentioned the lag as it was particularly noticeable in Koln station and said we wouldn’t have that in the end game.
     
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  19. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    No, they don't work in combo. They are 2 different safety systems. The only reason that LZB is not used in all the lines all the time is because it is very expensive to install and maintain it. If you pay close attention to the stream, you will see the ICE3 following a 70 km/h limit using LZB (minute 49:22 of the stream). You can bet that a real Talent 2 on that line would use LZB if available. Just think for a moment: Why would the real Talent 2 have LZB if trains that can't go over 160 km/h couldn't use it. Does it make any sense to you?

    Also, DTG's own Talent 2 for TS2020 has both PZB and LZB. We are going backwards here, with new content not having what old content has.

    I would refrain from posting that kind of comments when it is obvious from your reply to point 1 you are no expert. PZB in RT was totally unplayable. It is true that DTG tried to fix it and it is much better than it was at release, but last time I played it it was still far from perfect.
     
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  20. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    I repeat: PZB and LZB are 2 different systems but they work like a sort of combo. In Germany railways LZB is *requested* for trains built to operating over the 160km/h. In other Countries rules for using LZB can be different. And at about minute 49 Mr Protagonist drive at 70km/h following the PZB (you can se the letter "B" on the HUD) but driven by Matt he preparing to entering in LZB route/sector (like he entering in LZB route the HUD letter swap from "B" to "U" and become "ENDE" when the train left the LZB route before Aachen, when, I suppose, switch back under PZB system used in "traditional routes" (aka, route not designed for the high speed traffic).

    Talent 2 isnt a German emu but a Bombardier emu sold in different Countries
    and LZB, German safety system technology, is used not only in German railways. For example also Spain railways use German LZB system (but with different max speed limits / setup). And probably that's the main reason why the Canadian emu equip the LZB as default.

    Rapid Transit and the PZB totally unplayable.


    Usually the trains who equip/operate in LZB equip this "tool/distance indicator" on the middle of the main panel (db br 182 and 155 for example has this tool/indicator), why Talent 2 (both, on TS and TSW) has not this? (just my personal question)

    lzb.jpg

    or this (ICE4, yellow indicator on the left side)

    LZB2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
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  21. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    It is no combo, but it is OK if you consider it a combo to use PZB where there is no LZB installed in the line. Doesn't change things much.
    If you are a train driver and have an accident while using and old safety system like PZB when you had newer, better system like LZB available to you ... well, god help you (if it is even legal to choose to do that).

    In any case, you might want to reconsider your assumption that DB buys Talent 2 units with LZB when they are not going to use it because the cost is in the order of hundreds of thousand euros PER UNIT, plus the maintenance. But again, lets forget about this too.

    Going back to what we were talking about. Here is the screenshot of the Talent 2 panel:

    Talent 2 - LZB.png

    LZB is in the real life Talent 2, it is in the TSW2 Talent 2 panel model (not working), it is fully working in the old TS2020 Talent 2. Can you explain to me why you think it is OK that DTG does not make it work in TSW2, specially when now we can place it in any route or line with the editor?

    Let's go back to what I said:
    "Was", past tense.
    "Is", present tense.

    If you got a video about how it was at release, please post it and we can comment on how it worked. ;)

    PS: You might want to take a look at this video.

    This is a good question actually. I don't know tbh. My first thought is that it would appear to the left of the speedometer screen like it happens in the image of the ICE4 you posted, or it is in another screen that we haven't seen yet. There is no "physical" speedometer in the Talent 2, so it makes sense that the LZB bar would follow the same design.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  22. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    In terms of benefits, immersion, simulation, alarms, what's the real differences to using LZB?
    In my opinion this guy is an expert player and in this video he drive Talent 2 on Train Simulator 2020 and honestly I dont see (or hear) differences between driving without LZB (my RT video)
    and driving with LZB on (TS video).

    So, LZB was projected *mainly* for trains who operating above the 160kmh and about the 50% of PZB bugs are player mistakes added at this sort of negative/arcade propaganda built around TSW (cause some private business interest?). Music changes literally with Intercities and High Speed Trains.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  23. ghall59

    ghall59 Active Member

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    I quite enjoyed the stream, it was also nice to hear some enthusiasm in Matt's voice again, I think he had a hard time of it recently.
     
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  24. palme111100

    palme111100 Active Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know LZB "kicks in" when the whole train has passed the "LZB sign" and not like in the stream where it started when the cab passed the sign.
     
  25. xavpin234

    xavpin234 Member

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    no it does kick in at the sign since the train detects the middle wire as soon as it goes under the detector which is placed at the front of the train
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
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  26. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Nope, sorry, that is not how it works. The LZB wire is set up in loops with a specific length. There are entry loops before a LTB entry sign. The train needs to be in completeley in a loop after a entry loop, so it will kick in after the tail of the train is in that first normal loop. The sign is not really a placemark. Mostly it fits the start of an loop near by. An actual visible LZB cable does not mean instant-LZB-on.
     
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  27. xavpin234

    xavpin234 Member

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    Well thanks for the info, now i know better so the whole train has to be in the loop for it to activate,and i tough only part of it had to guess i got my info wrong
     
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  28. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    At about a week from the launch Im searching videos to learning how LZB really work. And I think that videos about ZUSI 3 are a good point to start.

    That is a BR 146 DB (the 185 its pretty similar, both has the LZB indicator on the central display...our "preserved" locos are a bit differents, I mean in case of LZB line)

    (at about minute 6.xx train entering in LZB section, and again at about minute 15, across 2 different lines. Line changes at about minute 10, under Ende -> back to -> PZB-85. Its interesting how the "distance" tool, under LZB, looks not operative *red instead yellow* and there is also not a target speed, probably because this Regional Express max operating speed is only 160km/h, so dont need advanced tools like dinstance and target speed under LZB section. Just my supposition.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  29. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Normally the distance bar is orange on these MFDs. As i remember it is in ZUSI too. The reason because it looks red is maybe a wrong color profile set for recordings where orange shifts more to red. Have seen such problems alot yet.


    There is one, but barely visible for the same reason as above. Its normally red, but in the video its more very dark pink colour.
     
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  30. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Effectively, I watched one more time the video and I noticed that the distance bar is working cause it decrease in LZB section (when its active). The question I asking myself is if our german locos/trains will have these upgrade feature (I mean, not only the ICE).
    According with the 442 Talent-2 (on TSW2 and TS2020) Im afraid I already know the answer...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
  31. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    For any preserved content, pretty much forget it. I think we may have a chance with the new Talent 2 and future DLC, but we need the support of other forum members so they will listen.

    It makes me sad when I see DTG makes like 90% or more of the work by implementing LZB then they fall short in the last 10% to make the Talent 2 complete.
     
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  32. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Hannibal, here we says "perdersi in un bicchier d'acqua" when you are able to dominate an entire Ocean and then drown in a simple glass of water.
     
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  33. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    There is no Talent 2 out there with LZB equipped. The distance scale is there just for the eventuality to put in LZB some days what never happend. If you would remove the distance scale cover you could see the empty behind it, nothing more :)
     
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  34. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Can you confirm the same about the BR 422 and BR 425 too?
    And what about the BR 143, 146, 155, 182 and 185?

    For example, in the video above, the BR 146 in an RE service (in ZUSI 3) use the LZB, our BR 146 has not this function (cab signals U/Ende and related LZB alarms).
     
  35. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I don’t believe the 425 can go quicker that 160kph. It can’t on HRR anyway.
     
  36. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Going faster than 160 is not the main reason for having LZB equipped. BR425s from 1th and 3th series do have LZB. LZB is not only for being able to run faster than 160. It is also a system to shorten the block sizes for the slower traffic. In Munich there are 50m Block at the SBahn tracks for example.
     
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  37. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    There probably not even will be a button to remove this cover so we can see for ourselves ... :D It's a shame! :cool:
     
  38. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Since the game is out, I have walked down the ICE3 and this one is still present. DTG Protagonist Is this one on the list? I know it is definitely not a priority, I just wouldn't want it to go unnoticed.
     
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  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I found this out while painting the IC3- DTG saved themselves a step by cloning Car 2 (1st class semi-compartment Avmz) as Car 3, when in reality Car 3 is a 2d-class Bvmz. I doubt this is a "bug" but a deliberate decision to save a bit of memory
     

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