Lgv Méditerranée

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by OS1-1IT, Dec 26, 2020.

  1. OS1-1IT

    OS1-1IT New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    I do not see speed posts on the slow portions of LGV MÉDITERRANÉE. While not a huge deal for people who choose to play with the HUD, it is more of an issue for those of us who like to play without the HUD. I am wondering if there is anyone who has real world experience with this route and if it has speed posts.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. Franck69

    Franck69 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2020
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    35
    Same problem as me.
    Play with everything turned off to make the experience as simulated as possible. Unfortunately I realized this, but not only with this DLC, but also with others. that speeds are not indicated. I don't know if it's a bug or a lack of the path creators
     
  3. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    I agree, KVB sections outside Marseille need an improving speeds segnalling system. I found just a 60 (over my head) but also with a zoom in cab it is very difficult to notice. I seen some real cab ride videos and speed limit tables along Marseille KVB route are very clean to see. Both: Dynamics and statics speed tables.
     
  4. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    903
    Likes Received:
    1,702
    I saw comments on a different thread before that there are signs for speed limits, although at an atypical place (above the catenary) in the real world.
     
  5. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Let's try with the screensots. Direction: Marseille Saint Charles -> Aix En Provence.
    For a better visual I ran at max 5~10km/h with zoom to max.

    56 meter forward there is the 60 km/h speed. Did you see any speed table (overhead or on my left side like square or dimond)
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 11-45-30.png
    like above, did you see a 110 table or something? There is just a french signal (an arrow) along the left side of my track. Probably it says something like "start from here" ...so maybe the 110km/h start from here but on my back I never meet a 110 table.
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 11-48-14.png

    Here we are 1km before the incoming speed of 140km/h. Did you see a 140 table? On track on my left there is a 30 table, but is a different track (exit from Marseille trains depot/garage)
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 11-49-53.png

    And here, just 40 meters in front of me the 140 has starting (thanks to the HUD) because along the line I had no speed information.
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 11-53-36.png

    Note: I walked this part of railway also by foot. From Marseille until the LGV section start. The only static table (over the catenary) it was a 60. If you run along the real life KVB section, there are static and dynamics speed tables (also) along this path and also you dont need to use the zoom to catch them. They are also over the catenary, off course, but they are well displayed the same.
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 3
  6. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    So far I just managed to find a 30 plate at the train wash track and a 60 plate on the curve but because both were at the outter tracks. In the main line I wasn't able to spot any. This is worse than finding collectables :o

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
    • Like Like x 5
  7. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    IRL in France, not all speeds are indicated by signs. In fact, 70% of the time, the driver has to remember where speed is changing (gantry, building or whatever). For example, starting for Paris St-Lazare, speed changes are indicated by... tunnels, gantries or stations !

    So that's not an issue, that's realistic ! The only way to drive realistically is to make the first journey with the HUD. ;)

    In this case, speed changes are materialized by gantries (you'll see written on them "Portique P1", "Portique P2" and "Portique P3").

    Take a paper and write down where speed changes are located and when you can accelerate or brake.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  8. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    Thanks for the info Nemo.

    So far I have just managed to find the following plates. Outbound Marseille only the one at the train wash track:

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2020-12-26 14-12-23.png

    Inbound Marseille, starting from the electrification transition the following:

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2020-12-26 14-25-07.png

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2020-12-26 14-18-44.png

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2020-12-26 14-12-49.png

    I still miss the illuminated announcements on the gantry signals we have seen in some of the shared youtube videos. If I´m not wrong they are used for diverging routes. They only give the vertical white bar, not the plate. So all the time they tell us that no speed reduction is expected.

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2020-12-26 14-20-47.png

    So there´s no clue at all about the outbound 30, 60, 110, 140 nor about the inbound 110 and 30. I guess that´s the case that Nemo explained and we need to know them by heart. I think the gantry 60 inbound should indeed be a 110, not a 60, as it is too far from the curve and indeed we have another 60 plate afterwards.

    The outbound/inbound 30 can be obtained from the KVB double 00 yellow indication in the cab (that I think should be green after passing the platform balises as there restriction is already in force not announced), but that´s all. For the outbound KVB gives the --- --- indication after platforms, so you are expected to follow trackside plates indications, or use the indications Nemo provided.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  9. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    Ahhh... There´s another important indication. At the depot entry we have the 20 limit.

    TS2Prototype-Win64-Shipping 2020-12-26 15-15-47.png

    For the exit we don´t have plates. Just yellow 00 indication on the KVB when entering the platforms to warn us about the 30 limit in force there.

    Cheers
     
  10. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    From Avignon towards Marseille, just before entering in St-Charles station, 110 is located on the gantry "Portique P1", 60 on "Portique P2" and 30 on "Portique P3".
    In the other direction, you can speed up depending on the length of your train.

    Something DTG forgot is that there are more KVB magnets in dead ends stations to prevent an accident in case of broken brakes for example. The speed is reduced from 30 to 20, then 10 then 5 (or something like that).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    1,050


    * 1hour 33mins 25secs, 140km/h.
    *1hour 34mins 27secs, 90km/h.
    * 1hour 35mins 56secs, 90km/h. Train drivers have to know the speed limits, the conduct, etc. But the signal on Marseille (but also on Lyon, maybe along the main or most important routes?) there is the same.
    * 1hour 37mins 12secs, 60km/h.
    * I haven't seen the 30 for the entering at the station but this is easy to remember because its just one and because its located just before (or in front of) the station. Or also, KVB display will show the 00 = proceed at 30km/h? All the other speed changes, on real life video, are indicated: 140, 90 (we got 110 instead 90 on tsw2 but its not indicated), 60.

    *Tgv manual (about signalling and KVB page 14 and 18): http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/s...rseille_to_Avignon_Manual_EN.pdf?t=1467967156

    The only speed table we can see (only if we are hawk) its the 60. At least thats the situation on console version in 4k.

    Can you see the 60? Almost impossible, and we are at only 15km/h and with the zoom. :)
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 17-31-32.png

    And here? :)
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 17-40-00.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  12. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    I have to admit that, despite being reluctant about this DLC before, I´m now fascinated by this route. It´s a challenge... I have learnt so many new things in the last couple of days thanks to the shared content here. Thanks guys. And also the cool electrification transition is something I was really looking forward to have in game, as electric trains few times needed use the main circuit breaker nor the pantos during regular operation. I hope more routes, even conventional lines, implement working powerless sections as well as other electrification transitions in the future, as this is an important topic during real driving.

    Now I noticed the 60 announcement at the gantry (diamond shape) after watching the video, and yes it´s also there in game :)

    Cheers
     
  13. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    At 1:33:25, I guess the 140 is here to remind the driver that he must reduce his speed (as he has at the same time to change pantographs, he can forget that).

    1:34:27 : the 90 is for the other track. The signal is called "TIV Lumineux" or basically "luminous sign". It presents either a vertical line or indicates a speed reduction at a further deviation. The left one presents the first indication, so nothing to worry about.

    1:35:56 : the "TIV lumineux" is presenting a 90, which tells the driver to reduce is speed (in this case, he must be at 90 when taking the junction which deviates the train). At 1:37:14, we can see the TGV changing track. :)

    1:37:12 : 60 announced, execution at gantry "Portique P2".

    The 30 is located at the gantry "Portique P3". ;)

    I agree with you that the 60 is barely visible, but I know when I have to brake. :)

    On your 2nd screenshot, it's not written (welcome in France XD ), but you have to be at 30 at this point (Portique P3). Double 00 appears here, so yes you mustn't exceed 30 km/h.

    The diamond 60 means that you have to reduce your speed at 60. Diamond form means that there is a crocodile on the track (and that's NOT the name of the system, despite what DTG said..). You'll hear a "beep" and you'll have to press the yellow button (not implemented in game yet !).
    A squared TIV (like the 140) tells you that there will be no beep in cab.

    By the way, the real name of the "Crocodile" system (which is in fact the big magnet above a TIV or signal) is "RS" (Répétition des Signaux), see here : https://lesiteferroviaire.pagesperso-orange.fr/repetition des signaux.htm
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  14. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    Nemo one question, in case you know, as I had the doubt these days: the KVB 30 announcent is given by yellow 00 but in manual it´s written than when limit is in force it should turn green. I have seen the yellow P to green P transition when entering the KVB area after the tunnel, but never a green 00. Shouldn´t we have it before arriving to platforms, as there the speed limit given by the signals should be already in force?

    Cheers
     
  15. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Yeah, but on console version, also in 4k, the speed table of 60 it is almost impossible to catch at nornal speed (not at 15km/h) and without the zoom (like in this screen).

    I suppose that also the real train drivers know where they have to brake but the 60 is not barely visible. On console version there is not the 110 table, and the 60 (following a normal conduct and without zoom) it almost invisible. The only well visible signals are the ones related to the train depot/garage.

    I'm happy for your skills to recognize speed limit signals also where they are not present like the 110 or when they are almost impossible to catch but I think, according with the video, that in real life line they are well distinguible because the real life it's not a videogames where you can show your skills. Signals are along the line because train driver need them to drive correctly, without too many risks for themselves and for about 1000 passengers, like in all the other countries :)

    Because if you want a video I can also record one. So you can see that on console version there are missing signals and the 60, at normal speed (also with the zoom) its almost imvisible.
    On KVB there is not the 00 when we approaching the station. But I suppose a train driver have to know that too.
    So, we can propose to remove all speed limits also from the other DLCs just to make the game more challenging again :)

    And it's strange, because (on KVB section), from Aix En Provence to Marseille, until the 140 the speed signals are well visibles like in the real route on video above. Passed the 140 at least on console version we are driving in a desert.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  16. mokady

    mokady Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    36
    Did you guys manage to turn on the "crocodile" system? I tried and it cant be turn on.... So this KVB is most useless thing becasue in current state it only shows you when train is overspeeding by more than 5 km/h (oh and shows when next signal is "stop")
     
  17. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    I'm not sure, I'll ask to a driver I know. But here is my theory : as the signal just before Marseille St-Charles is always presenting a yellow aspect (he can't present a green aspect before a dead end), the KVB displays 00 like always when passing a yellow, but there is actually no magnet that can displays the green 00.
    I think you should see a green 00 on lines where max speed is low.

    Here is a useful link : https://lesiteferroviaire.pagesperso-orange.fr/kvb.htm

    By the way, DTG did something wrong : just like PZB not working when LZB is active, KVB is "turned off" automatically when TVM is armed. So you should NEVER see something on the KVB in normal condition. ;)

    It's not about skills, and surely it's not about challenge. You're completely wrong. It's about realism. I don't see the reason why DTG should place signs that don't exist in real life. Railways are very different in France compared to others countries. In Germany, in Switzerland, everything is announced by signs. That's great, but that's not how it works here.
    In France, one of the biggest matters with security is "line knowledge". You have to perfectly know everything about the line you're working on, even more than in other countries.
    On my PC too, thanks to "awesome" graphics, I don't see the 60 sign (and sometimes I don't see the 140 one). But I know where they are located because that's part of the job of train driver.

    DTG didn't fail on that point : there are missing signs because they are missing in real life. It's up to you to adapt yourself. Make the first drive with the HUD, take down on a paper where speed changes are located then drive without them. That's how I do, and I still don't see the 60 sign (and I've zoomed sometimes.

    I've seen that myself on other lines, that's not a joke, and not even a bug !

    A small example with this video :



    It's even more "hardcore" than in Marseille at the beginning ! There is absolutely NO speed signs ! At 4:24 for example, the station itself indicates the speed change.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  18. Tirpitz

    Tirpitz New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    4
    If I recall correctly, it isn't implemented yet. They said so on stream.
     
  19. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    Let's just take an example of how I'm driving (it doesn't mean I'm a perfect driver of course, but I know real drivers that explained me this kind of thing). I'm doing all that for helping by the way, I could use the time used for other things.. :)

    I'm arriving at Marseille from Avignon. My speed is 140 km/h. I'm approaching this location :

    20201226215725_1.jpg

    This is my "brake point". Nothing is indicating the 110 limit, so let's say the sign warning us is here. Starting from here, I reduce my speed because the 110 limit is further, precisely located at the gantry "Portique P1".

    20201226215924_1.jpg

    At this gantry, the speed limit is 110. You can see "Portique P1" written on top of the gantry. Just after that, there is a TIVD 60 (sign announcing there will be a speedl limitation) (it's ""very""" visible thanks to the game).

    20201226215759_1.jpg

    So I apply brakes to catch the 60 located at the "Portique P2".

    20201226220002_1.jpg

    Just after that, I know I will enter a 30 zone located at the "Portique P3". So I brake again.

    20201226220017_1.jpg

    And there we are, 30 km/h and entering smoothly at Marseille.. :)

    In summary, just remember locations when you think you should brake and where speed changes are located. :)
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  20. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Following what you seen on real lif cab ride video.
    -just before the 2nd tunnel on video you commented we got the 140.
    And we got the same table at the same location also in the game.
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 23-08-56.png


    but while on real life video you too seen a 90 "Tiv lumineux", on the game we got nothing speed segnal until the 60. So in the game without track information we are literally abandoned at 140km/h until we meet this table below.
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 23-37-50.png

    Some kilometers before the location above, on the real live video, we meet a 90 ("TIV Lumineux") just before a Marseille iconic railway bridge. On real life video but not on our simulation game (where we still run at 140km/h without any sort of speed reduction table or signal. You can see the bridge on the 3rd pic. Here our HUD say 110. Without HUD we run still at 140.
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 23-24-50.png Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 23-26-14.png
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-26 23-29-46.png

    So, tips and suggestions are always welcome (Portique P1 110, P2 60 and P3 30)
    But the fact says that the KVB section is lack of speed signals because on real life route
    between the 140 and the 60 there are two 90.
    I hope DTG will add those "TIV Luninoux" because they are helpful and also tres jolie :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    This is normal, in TSW2 you don't follow the same path as in the video. Here is a small comparative I've made on Paint with my artist skills. :D

    Before that, just a small correction : the name "TIV Lumineux" is wrong, it is in fact "TIV Mobile". Before the box showing a diamond, TIV Mobile were in fact a sign which was rotating when necessary. It was replaced by the box for economical reasons I guess. "TIV Lumineux" exist, but have a different form and are not represented in game. I apologize. :/

    The video is a ""bad"" example because the TGV switches tracks at 1:37:14. This is why the "TIV Mobile" is showing a 90. The TGV must reduce his speed to take a deviation. XD
    In TSW2, you go straight ahead, so there is no point to showing a 90, because you stay on the same track. (Z represents the speed execution) ;)
    So the 140 is still here until you meet the first Portique.

    If you know a bit of German signalization, TIV Mobile is just like the small box with a yellow number under a green+yellow signal indicating you that at the next signal, the speed will be lowered.

    90.png
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  22. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    Thanks for the KVB investigation Nemo :)

    About the "TIV Lumineux" those signals are giving limits announcements (diamond shape) for the diverging routes only, not for main and in our approach to station we always go on the main at that area where the 90 is displayed. I also thought it was wrong in game but indeed they did it correctly. What we always get when there are diverging routes are the vertical white bars which indicate that no speed change is expected.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
  23. Cloadmcally

    Cloadmcally Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2018
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    184
    So my understanding from what I read in the manual is that those illuminating diamond signals are linked to the track as you stated, however, in the video we a see a 90 alongside a 60, indicating that you have to be at 60 by the time you get to that junction, as in fact happens. So shouldn't the light always be there indicating that there will be a 60 speed reduction even if you don't change tracks? This whole french speed limit system baffles me. And furthermore there are many other cabride videos where speed boards are practically every two hundred metres.
     
  24. OS1-1IT

    OS1-1IT New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    8
    Thanks for all of the input fellas. I have pages upon pages of route notes for non-German routes, indicating speed change locations. I guess I'll have to start another sheet for this route. Thankfully, there isn't much to notate.
     
  25. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    You're talking about those ones I guess ? The 60 is for the track on the right, it doesn't concern us.
    This type of signal is meant to order a speed reduction in case of diverged path. If you're going straight ahead, there is no reason to display a 90 or even a 60. The driver will be informed of the speed reduction to 60 some meters after the bridge.

    Capture d’écran (186).png
     
    • Like Like x 1
  26. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    1,050
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-12-27 15-06-52.png

    From the KVB display, as we approaching to the Marseille station (also without HUD) we can see that the max permitted speed is 30km/h.
    The 00 code tell us this information: 00 = approaching at max 30km/h.

    The only information that is lack is the reduction of speed from 140km/h to (in our case) 110km/h. Of course we can use a landmark as referiment like the iconic railway bridge or the Portique P1, but along the line there are not signals that show us the 110. In the real life route (cab ride video above) in that section trains meet two times the 90 (the equivalent of 110 on our dlc).
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  27. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    This is normal ! As I said, the 90 is only shown when the train must take a diverged path. 110 applies to trains that take the junction (at 1:37:14) to the left, which is the path we follow in TSW2, but not on the video. ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    We have to use the gantry banners, that´s totally clear now. It´s not the first case we face this: LIRR has no speed boards at all except a small bunch of them at very specific locations. There driver needs to know the speed restrictions by heart so in this case it´s the same situation. TSW routes definitelly force us to master our skills and our normal driving procedures :)

    Cheers
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Nemo

    Nemo Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2020
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    53
    I got my answer : I was completely wrong. XDDD

    So here are some verified information about KVB, thanks to a driver. I'm fairly sure about what I'm writing, but of course I'm not perfect and there could be some errors.

    - yellow 000 appears ONLY when approaching a "Carré" (double red aspect which forbids you to pass it) or a buffer. You'll have to reduce your speed at 10 km/h before the next KVB magnet. The margin is at this point of 2 km/h ! So at Marseille St-Charles, this should appear as you're approaching a buffer. But it's not ! So DTG should correct that. :)

    - green 000 : it exists, but you'll never see it.

    - green 00 appears after passing a "Carré" (for this one, you must have the authorization of the dispatcher and sign some documents), "sémaphore" (simple red) or "rouge clignotant" (blinking red). After passing one of them, you max speed is 30 km/h : you're on "marche à vue" (running on sight)

    - yellow 00 : appears only after a yellow aspect ("avertissement").
     
    • Like Like x 3
  30. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    Thanks sir!

    Probably we can see them in future lines or in other scenarios. In game KVB also implements the stop override and reversing button for shunting, so there´s still room for more complex usage of that system in the future :D

    Cheers
     
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Cloadmcally

    Cloadmcally Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2018
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    184
    Well, yes, but on LIRR you have ATC that advises you on speed changes, since here there's no such thing it's just literally having to learn the route by heart. cool. thanks for all the info, it's much clearer now.
     
  32. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    1,317
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page