Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by TrainGeek08, Mar 9, 2023.
R is the correct setting.
This is not correct. Germany (and many other UIC-countries) have been using R-brake for passenger trains since the 1940s. P- and G-brake are used almost exclusively for freight trains (some passenger vehicles might lack R-brake and then they will of course use P-brake). In fact, the IR and IC coaches should be in "R+Mg" (default setting) to utilize the magnetic track brakes in emergency. If you run an IC train in P-brake then it will be heavily restricted in speed.
Regarding the reports of unrealistic brakes on the BR110 and BR103 what I have been told by a BR110 driver is that in normal service braking the locomotive uses either electric brake or air brake. Not both. In emergency the BR110 will use low air brake pressure + electric brake (low being "niedrige abbremsung" or 3.8 bar). Currently in the game the locomotives use both air and electric braking so essentially the locomotives are braking with twice the realistic brake force (approximately). This is my guess as to why they are reported as braking too strongly. Of course it is possible that there are other factors that contribute (maybe the air brake force is too high etc, I haven't tested or worked on these locomotives so I have no idea).
Being on PC Steam, I used a mod to drive the BR 101 on this route and it is nothing less than superb. Please DTG, I implore you to make the BR 101 officially sub in occasionally for the BR 103 so our community friends on console can share this experience too. The BR 101 entered service in February 1997 so it's not an outlandish flight of fancy and gameplay wise it really is special.
The problem is, the BR 101 at the moment can't use the doors on the old IC cars.
Same for BR 110.3, it can't use them either.
Thanks for this explanation! I didn’t think about this. Now it makes sense that it was not done, as it would have needed a redesign of the 101 and it is not just a simple sub. I am just wondering why DTG have not mentioned this and why they have not chosen a 1996 timetable, as they would have avoided this problem all along?!
As far as I understand it the BR101 uses the door system called SST-F ("Seitenselektive Türsteuerung Fernverkehr"). This system allows the driver to not only release the doors but to select which side of the train the doors should be released. So the jumper cables sends several signals (open left, close left, open right, close right etc). The new IC coaches are compatible with this system.
The old IC coaches that are used on LFR use the door system called TB0. This system is more primitive and only sends two signals (afaik): open doors & close doors. The side selection is handled by the conductor (or the passengers?).
IRL if the BR101 is driving coaches with TB0 then simply moving the door selector away from "close all" will send an "open doors" signal, otherwise the signal state is "close doors".
In TSW the BR101 was not initially intended to drive coaches that use TB0 (since these didn't exist at the time, afaik the Dostos use TAV) so that functionality was never implemented. To make the BR101 compatible with the old IC/IR coaches on LFR the loco would need to be updated. I guess that is why the layers were left out.
A funny thing is that the BR101 behaved closer to TAV in it's initial release. TAV is more complex than SST-F and allows for traction lock when doors are open (among other things). When I made the TSW3 update I removed those TAV specific things and made it worse (but more realistic ).
So, besides I like to repeat, please fix the brakes, I made a video for you guys, the visuals of the route are stunning in many places.
I have found it already You've been right
Please find attached screen shots of speed reduction problem. The hud tells us the approaching speed restriction is to 120kph but the line side signage says 100kph which is correct.
But the yellow warning sign for this speed limit also says 120, something has clearly gone wrong here.
I think there are some 1000 Hz magnets missing or not enabled round Mainz main station. Started a IR journey today and the signal at the platform showed Vr 0, but I didn’t need to acknowledge it and didn’t got a restricted speed limit of 40 km/h as usual. Same happened at the next Vr 0. Only at the 3rd VR 0 signal right before Mombach was an active 1000 hz magnet.
However, in the real world I was under the impression that SST locos can also handle TB0 doors. SST requires 18 pin UIC cables, where as TB0 uses PIN numbers below 13, which SST also uses. SST is building up onto the TB0 system and they should be downward compatible?!
I am curious, though, how deep the TSW simulation really goes. Do you use real UIC standard pin selection for modelling these systems? If so, the SST should work like TB0 on coaches with only 13 pin cables (if my understanding of the real system is correct)…
Yes this is what I meant by this: "IRL if the BR101 is driving coaches with TB0 then simply moving the door selector away from "close all" will send an "open doors" signal, otherwise the signal state is "close doors"."
There are several newer DLC that pretty much emulates the jumper cables fully. At least UK stuff (the class 323 comes to mind). I know that the Dosto simulates UIC 568 cables but the BR101 is older and much less complex in this regard (but this can always be changed if a need & time is there).
Just did a run with the nwagen cab car. Wow the timings just about require F1 car performance, certainly wringing the b***s off the BR110 which cannot surely be prototypical. Hate to sound like a scratched record, but do they actually test these before release?
I made a short video of that sequence:
On XSX here. On the route introduction at Mainz Station there is a light baking problem. Everything inside it turns black, station assests, and passing trains. Even the very first coco clock collectable.
How did this pass testing. Takes all of 15 seconds to see.
Yep, quite obvious, actually. I must have misinterpreted it reading it the first time.
Quite impressive that DTG starts simulating it in this depth. But would this mean that we will not be able to see a 101 sub into LR, as it simply is not compatible with those coaches?
There are a few great creators club scenarios by Tom Fresco using the BR101 with modern AI traffic, which can be enjoyed by us console players. I drove the 101 to Koblenz today too, and yes! A fantastic run
Overall i enjoy the route, its nice to drive the freight & passenger services. Compared to trenton, this route at least makes the impression of not rushed out in a total unfinished state.
Still found a few things, especially at the Station Bingen (Rhein) Hbf --> Bingenbrück:
Approaches with the freight services (both sides!) seem to cause pzb Problems because Siding 105, the signal showed green und guided me direct into 40kmh section. This happens only on siding 105, the other freight siding shows a "slow speed" section as it should be. Same when coming from Koblenz to Bingenbrücke 105, i got slowed down correctly to the red signal before the yard (there you have to cross the mainline). For some reason on my map the signal showed green and in the game it was red (No shunting signal visible or active). So i passed with Befehl 40.
1: Approach to the yard for siding Bingenbrück 105 VR shows green instead of green&yellow:
2: Surpise + penalty brake.
3: When approaching to the other siding in the yard (different service), signal shows a "slow speed section as it should be), Screenshot is from an approach into the next yard above Bingen.
Seems also Right after this Bingenbrück yard direction Koblenz a lot of overhead wiring is missing on the sidings where the freight train use.
Also pzb approach to mainz can lead to surprising outcomes, not going into that since other players already mentioned.
Here a screnshot of the dark section at mainz:
Not a major issue but ECS service RB 6497 from Mainz to Bingen has the first task of loading passengers despite it being an ECS. Normally the standards of German route timetables are pretty good (max freight/consist speeds, real timings, etc) but this one seems to be a little sub-standard for a German route. Still very much enjoying it though!
To add to this, that service I was driving was weirdly routed through platform 3 at Bingen Stadt and the approach to the turnout for platform 3 didn't slow me down to 60kph with a reduced speed warning signal (can't remember the correct name).
EDIT - The return service RB6497 Bingen - Mannheim, on approach to Mainz I got a green distance signal and then came up on a red (resulting PZB activation) with Sh1 because I was routed only half way down the platform.
So here my suggestion to devs about the "braking" of the 103 and 110:
Like i already mentioned in the other thread about the 103 brakes, the pressures are correct, but seems the combined use of dynamic & pneumatic brake is not properly done.
For a normal service application down to 25kmh in combination with both (el. + pn), the loco would only brake electric and at 25kmh the pneumatic brakes would start to being active. (in emergency pneumatic brakes are getting active at 45kmh)
So the current problem is: The player starts the brake application with the combined levers. Normaly the valve would create the "vorsteuerdruck" (control pressure), but only the el. brake should now be active. Seems tsw uses the el. brake force + the air brakes 1:1 when initiating the application. The result is a stronger brake behaviour of the locomotive.
My advise, DTG should go over the books again (i asume they have the Betriebshandbücher), and fix this. (Same for the 110, but different values). At least a short fix on the 110 would be, that the combined braking can be disconnected with the mechanical lock. Currently the el. brakes will be used anyway + the loco produces the brakeforce of the entire pneumatic brake, which should only getting active at lower speeds.
A quick walkaround to drive with the interconnected brakes to get lower brake performance in tsw:
Players could just use the brake levers separate with the mouse and a lot of effort, but for the 1-2 stops of the intercity services, i recommend to shut off the vorsteuer valves. Yes this means you wont have any air pressure from the pn. brakes on the loco, but this way you get the effect that the train is being braked pneumaticly and the loco in use of both levers will be braked electric.
Asuming there wont be any emergency brake application, the only difference is that below 25kmh the loco wont have any air brakes.
Here a pic of the valves:
Finally i just hope those 2 things get fixed on both locos (3 with bremen oldenburg):
- Mechanical lock to the 110 (For connecting & disconnecting the brake levers)
- Fix for the 103, that El. & Pn brakes not operate together, which is i think the cause for the extreme brake values in tsw.
- Same fix for the 110, but there are situations in a emergency brake, where they will operate together in R&P.
For those saying this route was not a rush job, I'm sorry but it is.
In playing just for 10mins normally, not going out of my way looking for flaws I saw multiple.
Lighting issues in the tutorial intro.
Flickering lighting and shadows on XSX.
Floating layers of ballast with tracks sitting on top not connected to the game world.
Missing sections of overhead wiring.
Copy and pasted broken brake modeling from previous DLC.
Copy and pasted broken tail lights on IC coaching stock.
Passengers getting stuck inside and blocking up n wagon stock.
A building with solar panels in the mid 90s.
I found all that in my first 10-15 mins.
Compared to RSN, my gold standard German route even in release condition was way above in quality and finish than this route.
I can confidently say even with multiple patches we will be left with long term bugs and sloppy construction on this route. It has or had potential to be one of the best German routes but it will never get there sadly.
Quite a few signals are hiding behind the catenary poles on this route, a couple of them being so close behind it is impossible to see the aspect it is showing until right upon it. This combined with the numerous wrongly signed/doubled up speed limits makes driving on it confidently a bit of a challenge.
The whole route is so overblown with light and haze as well. Everything ends up washed out. The trees being light grey until you get close to them in some weather settings is bit weird too. It would definitely look better under the old lighting, I’m certain of that. Some textures or settings must be a bit off.
This is no flaw. There were some buildings in that time, which already had solar panels. For instance: My parent's house in Carinthia, Austria was built in 1992, with solar panels.
It must be difficult and disheartening to get past the DTG bashing. I can understand why Matt has said in the past few members of the team actually read the forums. It is a shame because I am sure constructive criticism and important feedback for possible post releases fixes is lost amongst the bashing and ill feeling.
It's a pity, because this had the potential to be the greatest route, that it wasn't left in the oven long enough. Not outright crippled like NYT, but still, given its potential, it's very, very discouraging that they didn't schedule enough time to get even basic things right: light-baking blackouts, PZB sequencing errors, the 103's brakes, service timings. All the little things which, if polished, together with a bit more creativity with the scenery, would have made this route epic. Add in a 140 and Interrgio coaches and it would have been an all-time great. As it is it's just... unfinished.
The route and the loco I have always wanted in TSW; I'm very disappointed. A shame.
I’m glad I checked in since I was thinking of getting it. I wait for the next sale and hopefully all these issues be fix
Even though I prefer modern-day content, I think DTG still have to be given credit though for the fact that they at least chose to do a 90s German TSW route with the 103 in the first place. Although, I strongly agree though that basic features obviously always need to be given utmost priority to make sure things are to an acceptable and, most importantly, workable standard before deadline. Anyway, one major positive of this route though is at least it isn't just a one-loco route...
Yes, but one of the two is used in completely inappropriate ways.
Overall the positive things of this route makes it really enjoyable, its fun and beside the "few" bugs the locos give a convincing driving experience.
Just a bit annoying with faulty pzb behaviour.
By the way, there are already mods that allow the IR that can be selected in the timetable mode to drive with the blue IR cars and the n-wagen cars have the old DB railway logo. It will look a lot better then.
Also, in summer mode, the trees don't look as gray in the distance anymore, which looks a lot better. I would therefore not drive the route in winter.
I wish DTG had put more time and love into the route, giving us e.g. moving ships (the Rhine is full of them!) and more choice of new homes. This is particularly noticeable in city thoroughfares when every 2-3. house is the same.
And last but not least, of course, the missing analogue PIS, which were simply left out. Even without being a static object, it would have added so much more flair.
I have long been annoyed by the use of bad textures in the design of engine rooms. This needs to be changed.
If you search for mistakes you will find them, if you seach what the route does well you will find even more of that.
I dont mind stuff like the one house with solar panels (which isnt even unrealistic), also with the farming trailers which probably should represent firefighter equipment i can live with.
Guys is there an expert that can answer this ?
I'm trying to run the BR 103 on the kassel route. In theory like the BR101 it can achieve 200kmh but on that route on 1% incline it does 170kmh and with the transformer on it goes to 180kmh. It does not want to get to 200kmh. You really need to be on a descent or flat surface. Is this normal?
I just finished the IC (715) Dortmund to Oberstdorf - Allgäu service (Journey chapter 'Amped', second service). Between Bingen and Mainz, around km 21.6, it started raining passengers next to the tracks. Passengers were spawning to the left of the tracks, a few meters in the air and dropping down onto the ground. No station to spawn at at that point.
Can it be, that in the Scenario "Single Line Rider" there is the first interactive NPC in TSW? I need to talk to her and the scenario progressed from there.
It's not the first one. On the Spirit of Steam route there is also a scenario in which you have to talk to an NPC.
It's pretty cool anyway. Love actually unowue scenarios like that.
In the Scenario "All Change" the Stop marker on your way back to Bingen Hbf in "Bingen" (not Bingen Hbf) is about 150-200 meter before the actual platform. If you stop their only the loco stands besides the platform, the wagons are all out of the station.
With how many coaches?
It fits better that way...
(...for the 110 with old logo)
I love the 1990s!
So, instead of fixing the multitude of issues with the base game and their various DLCs, they have insulated the team members from the criticism.
Whenever I hear DTG JD speaking about "the list", I'm inclined to ask if that list is saved on /dev/null.
$ echo "DB BR 143 achievement does not unlock" > /dev/null
Another issue saved on the list.
In some operating systems, the null device is a device file that discards all data written to it but reports that the write operation succeeded. This device is called /dev/null on Unix and Unix-like systems [...] (from Wikipedia)
Where was that stated? He said that "few members of the team actually read the forums", not they had been insulated from the forums, talk about a tin foil hat moment!
I think it's fair to say that the actual devs never read the forums- Adam used to, but haven't seen him in a long time. All of our interaction is with JD and Alex - and, no disrespect to them, but they aren't devs, they're customer service and PR personnel. The guys who actually program, test and repair the game are insulated from comment. Perhaps even more important, the Top Men who make the crucial decisions on project schedule and budgeting are never heard from at all- and, IMHO, most of the problems TSW has are ultimately their fault.
(Partial exception: Maik Goetz, Brandon (Cactusjuice) and Joethefish. But the first two are second-party and I haven't seen Joe here in a while either.)
This is very frustrating. I had planned on buying Mainz - Koblenz on release. It looked promising given the riverside location and would have added a couple of useful locos into the game.
But after reading the criticism from some of the reliable members here, I'm going to hold off, perhaps for a future sale. I'm also very concerned about the night lighting. And why build a water level route without proper river traffic.
Now I'm beginning to have doubts about Niddertalbahn, since I won't have the extra locos layered in.
Pretty scenery is less important to me than enjoyable gameplay and a full timetable with lots of AI traffic.
I might end this rush of releases with just the SD70Ace, which would be a bit disappointing.
This relatively new " business plan " of hastily releasing apparently unfinished routes is baffling.
I don't follow. NTB was a quiet country branch line that never saw any traffic beyond Nahverkehrzüge. No room for 103-hauled ICs! Even the 110 is a stretch... it hadn't fallen that far from its onetime throne, and 141s would be the correct locos. And the three locos it comes with are the only ones in TSW that existed in West Germany in 1992.
He surely means the 103 and 110 as AI traffic on Niddertalbahn...?
I think the AI traffic is only present in 2 stations (Bad Vilbel and Nidderau) so it is not going to make that much of a difference. Nice to have, yes, but you can wait for a sale to get Mainz - Koblenz and still enjoy Niddertalbahn meanwhile.
Ah. Well, beyond something to occupy platforms at a couple of Bahnhöfen, they don't contribute a whole lot.
It’s not perfect at all and some things are buggy or not developed to the end. But after every journey I did till now, I sit here and smile because this route is so much fun to drive. And fun is what I expect from a game.
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