Could I request that dtg actually listen to suggestions made on the forums? So many people have requested NYC subway, instead we got Sherman Hill. So many people have requested WCML, instead we got Glossop Line. If dtg actually made dlc that people want and have asked for they’d be in a much better position
Would they really be? The awnser is... no not really. Sure there are community wanted routes but like dtg still sells well - doing better then ever right now. Sure a WCML would be nice but it's not very likely in the near future just because of TSW finding it's limitations. And trust me - DTG DO read suggestions- they just don't reply so they don't give the wrong idea.
Litterally no suggestion page has majority accepted. Its always a minority that goes through. It doesn't matter what it just is the way suggestions work. DTG read into suggestions but it doesn't guarantee anything. If you want replies to your suggestions go over to rivets forums. DTG do listen however - but may not respond.
Bml was highly requested, class 700 was highly requested, Nyt was highly requested, Acela was highly requested, a London Underground route was highly requested (we got the Bakerloo line) I'd say that they do listen to suggestions, it's just that they can't do everything and some routes, like the extremely highly requested Wcml are just unfeasible at this time due to dev time/costs.
If there were bugs with popular routes then dtg would be more inclined to fix it- with less popular routes it can be released a buggy mess and left like that, which has an effect on the next dlcs
Not really. They do often go back to fix bugs regardless- albeit I'd argue bug fixing is a problem with all DTG routes tbh. 3rd party routes and developers seem to be a lot better at bug fixing all of there routes then DTG but DTG do put the effort in a lot of there routes when it comes to bugs but some do get treatment over others- ill give you that.
Also like 90% of suggestions posted every day... are not good atall. You have the odd good one from a few members but the majority of them a short paragraph non descriptive suggestions which gives nobody anything to go off. DTG only really pay attention to GOOD suggestions in terms of how there presents n whatnot, same with the community (most of the time).
I think it would probably help if DTG actually had a sticky at the top of the Suggestions forum listing countries/operators are unlikely to make an appearance either due to licencing or access for research etc. For example if there is no chance of getting a licence for the NYC Subway, then just say so. They should also moderate a little more to, 1. Try and contain the multiple threads that appear for certain suggestions, such as ECML, WCML etc., consolidate into one master thread for each route. 2. Suggestions should follow a pro forma and possibly be approved by a mod before publication. I guess it is frustrating to see what you feel is your nomination for your best route/loco/gameplay idea suggestion going nowhere, but at the end of the day they can't build everything. Generally it has to be a crowd pleaser (though that doesn't explain Glossop), they are only going to build what is going to be practical, what the route and train builders are comfortable with and as already mentioned what they have or can obtain licencing for and research easily. There are frequent requests for Australian routes but with the average air fare from London to Sydney now around £1500, last time I looked, it would cost a fortune to send even a small team over. Unless there is a reliable local associate (not an enthusiastic amateur) who can talk at a professional level with the train and infrastructure operators and get the in depth information required it's not going to happen.
I agree with OldVern, there should be a megathread for highly suggested routes, and a suggestion should be approved by mods, as a lot of suggestions are very low quality, but surely if there is a route that keeps being suggested it should be highlighted?
Here's my thoughts on the ideas from OldVern: I like the thinking behind it but I disagree about the whole mod approval process for suggestions I'm afraid Me personally being a suggestion regular, I wouldn't want to make a suggestion just for it to wait until the next morning for it to be seen by the community when instead I could have a suggestion out in the evening and have some feedback during the night, but sorry, I have to disagree with that idea However about a suggestion megathread though, that's an idea I fully support as there are umpteen ECML & WCML suggestions on here since these forums came about so it would be great to see a megathread to see everyone's great ideas for a respective route
This implies that no one was asking for Sherman Hill, which is awfully ignorant. Glossop Line might actually be true however.
I actually looked, and only 1 person asked for Sherman Hill, and that was back in 2020. The rest are additions to Sherman Hill after it was released. https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/up-laramie-subdivision-aka-sherman-hill-in-the-1980s.22581/
Fair enough, admittedly I was thinking of when I typed in Sherman Hill in the last TSW survey when they asked what route you'd like to see in the game. Different scenario from making a post in the suggestions forum though.
“So many people have requested WCML, instead we got Glossop Line”. That’s brutal lol. Makes it sound like they are just rubbing it in haha. I didn’t really see the point with Glossop line. It’s way too short and the only nice part of the route is the 2 viaducts….
I like the idea of mod approved suggestions, specifically routes & associated stock, it'll go a way to enforcing some standards and stemming frankly sub par suggestions that don't compare to what some members put into theirs. We all have a general idea of it, route length, background, history, rolling stock, stations, landmarks, extras like scenarios for example or if after a loco, tell us where it'll go. It's a shame some well thought ideas get lost in a sea of 'Durr I want x train or route, make it happen dtg cause it'd be good!', the sentiment is noble but it wouldn't be a stretch to have the meticulous op's merely pass a timely formality bar, when they would probably meet the criteria anyway, the optimistic effect would be encouraging people to think about what they want and how they should articulate it. Though I'm aware it sounds snobbish and might put people off. I see the suggestions as a free for all that needs some semblance of order at least.
Sherman Hill is certainly up there amongst my least played and most boring routes in the game. It’s so tedious, even Quick Play never generates a run on it. Part of this was due to the poor start with the awful frame rates and the fact it became another fire and forget flywheel project, no additional DLC like a GTEL or DD40X which would have added renewed interest. I sometimes wonder if DTG are beholden to their route builders rather than the other way round when it comes to what actually gets built.
I agree... But I do have a couple of worries. As traingeek08 rightfully pointed out the night (or day for some people) is a great time to get feedback from others and you come back to it in the morning- it being mod approved means you don't get that feedback and it slowly trickles in the day. Another worry is the amazing "Improving Lineside Industry" series of suggestions which I absolutely adore (albeit there hasn't been one in a while so they might have stopped it) as it isn't really what'd be considered be a golden suggestion but it's still really enjoyable the updates However this also means more suggestions will actually get comments - I've been there a few times seeing suggestions with a paragraph getting 50 or so comments then suggestions I put my heart and soul into get 0 (HAS happened twice for me, trust me the feeling hurts) And also what's to stop DTG from making auto moderated approval- which if so may any otherwordly being have mercy on our souls. Overall it could work and has a lot of positives and a lot of downsides.
Actually I think I can explain the thought process behind Glossop. While yes the route itself wasn't suggested - it's (weirdly enough) selling feature of guarding has been suggested countless times. DTG themselves said (I forgot if it was in a roadmap, stream, QNA or thread) that they did Glossop to test out guarding in TSW. And honestly Glossop is a really fun route anyway despite its short length so I'm not particularly complaining.
I don't play American routes - I tried SPG in TSW2 and got really bored. I even tried Boston sprinter and I just couldn't. Sherman seems like SPG but with virtually no interesting scenary and more lag, never even thought of once buying it even if it was on sale or part of a bundle. Albeit I'm not interested in American transport so wouldn't know.
Good morning everyone As others have pointed out, we do read your suggestions. Since we don't want to create false hope, we usually don't comment since that could be misconstrued as confirmation that the suggested content is coming. Also keep in mind that people like different things. We try to make sure there's a broad appeal for new content, but ultimately we're not going to make everyone happy. When deciding on a new route or piece of content, we use the LAMP system (Licensing, Anticipation, Mix and Prominence). That means we first look at the legal obligations we have, player perception of the route, gameplay potential and global appeal. I would recommend reading the April Roadmap, where one of our Senior Producers explains the LAMP system in more detail. I hope I was able to shed a little light on the process. All the best, Jan
LAMP still doesn't really explain Glossop though... And obviously Sherman was before that paradigm was adopted. Although going forward it might not be a bad idea to pin the concept of "LAMP" at the top of this sub so anyone posting a suggestion can consider the four categories. For example, how do the oft requested WCML and ECML fall under those categories. For mine I'll consider the Somerset and Dorset, Bath Green Park to Bournemouth West under LAMP: L: No issue with licencing as the route existed under BR before closure in the mid 1960's. 10/10. A: Anticipation - I would say high as this is one of the famous and iconic of the old steam routes with nice scenery, challenging gradients and the ultimate attraction of going to the seaside at Bournemouth. 9/10. M: Mix. Well huge, really. Many types of locomotive and stock operating from express services to local passenger and various freight workings. Summer Saturday timetable for Joethefish to work on when more trains were scheduled than the route could really handle. (If you want to experience at the Bath end buy and try the SIAM BA61 Bath Green Park traffic simulation on a DOS emulator). 10/10. P: As above in anticipation. A very high profile DLC with great potential. 10/10. Total score 39/40 - bring it on!
It's never as easy as "we said this you did that". You're also only seeing one channel of the communication we get, you're not seeing support messages, DM's (with the vitriol in the forums sometimes, lots and lots of people will only communicate privately). It's interesting seeing "I hate north american, i have no idea why you made this north american route its so boring" type comments because... well we made it for those that *do* like those routes. Everyone's got different interests and the diversity in interest among rail fans is extremely wide and interesting. Sherman was one of the most popular freight routes on TS Classic, and we get lots of requests for more US Freight instead of constantly focusing on US Passenger - so it seemed like a reasonable place to go. It was also our first Union Pacific route (excluding Cane Creek as that wasn't ours), with lots of people asking for UP specifically as well. New York Subway is fraught with issues - not the least of which is that we won't be able to get any access for reference, no technical details etc, it'd be derived from a cabride video at best. To me, that puts it down on the list of routes that people will actually be happy with the end result for - and therefore less desirable to make. Glossop - nobody's going to sit here and recommend routes that are short like that but we need to explore lots of options. Glossop came about for a number of reasons, the desire to look at shorter routes, the desire to bring in new operators, new parts of the country and so forth... and... for all the "nobody asked for this" - i'll say it's a really popular release. LAMP is important to the process but it's not the total story, one of it's goals is more to filter out the bad ideas - because then we're left with lots of really good ideas and we can't make them all. There's boring tedious business and practical considerations that need to be taken into account - not all routes can be big, not all routes can have lots of stock. S&D is on the list of routes i'd love to do though, has been in amongst the list of options to consider since before the first steam route, but the absolute necessity for a class of loco that exists nowhere else makes it less desirable early on in Steam development cycles (S&D 7F). ECML and WCML are similar, massive projects vs highly desirable routes. Everything about picking content is a mix of a wide range of factors, LAMP is one element of that process. Similarly when it comes to suggestions, if perhaps we can't do whatever's specifically being asked for we'll certainly look at themes - if there's lots of people asking for a wide range of commuter passenger routes with dmu's, then that will bump up the "Anticipation" factor for any commuter passenger DMU routes that we consider for example. It all then caps off with having to fit within boring business constraints and the need for us to consider the wider audience, which is where alternative shorter options sometimes come in. Matt.
Appreciate the insight Matt. That's a shame about NYC Subway but I guess it's an organisation where security is their first concern. Strange that LIRR, MN and even Amtrak don't have the same concerns though. Re the S&D, well it would also work with a 9F and/or BR Standard Class 5, according to the SIAM game there were a number of both based at Bath Green Park along with the 4F's which already exist in game via PFR. Though I agree a 53xxx would be great albeit without much application elsewhere.
Everyone I spoke to in beta etc and in the rest of the organisation, berated me quite loudly for the possibility of releasing the S&D without the ubiquitous 7F - I tend to agree, I also happen to really like that class anyway but still, I digress LIRR/MN and the NYC Subway are all the same underlying operator, it's all MTA. While we have license to use the branding, they provide no access or reference (we can't even get authorisation to visit the line and get photographs from the platforms etc so anyone going would be at risk of transport police finding them very suspect indeed given what we take photos of!). Something like the LIRR and MetroNorth lines are predominantly overground so you can get a lot of it from easier photography and google maps etc - underground stuff is another challenge entirely and not one person on the team feels confident at delivering it to the standard people expect. Doesn't mean we aren't constantly looking to try and make it a possibility, but, it's a background thing to see what we can build up. Matt.
I think the 7F had the advantage of being able to handle 10 coaches without a pilot over the Mendips whereas the Black Five/Standard Five were only allowed 8, again going by Mr Bourne's notes for BA61! But yes it would be nice, maybe one day...
Admittedly my best evidence is that I wanted Sherman Hill very much in the game. I didn’t make any such suggestion in the forum about it though, as it can be fairly intimidating to try and out some detail into the suggestion, especially for freight routes which are not as easy to learn as any passenger route. My suggestion only came in the form of one of the official TSW surveys, which is a separate case from what you were arguing about. Perhaps I should’ve actually checked to see if there were any Sherman Hill suggestions before making that claim. I just got really defensive because it really annoyed me to see someone say “no one asked for” a route that genuinely had me more excited than any other TSW release. So sorry about that.
Midland mainline was highly requested and it was skyhook that saw it on the suggestion forum and decided to make it. So yes not only o DTG read the suggestions so do the third parties as well. By the way a suggestion is all it is. It not a guarantee that once its in the suggestion forum in black and white that it will get made. Also on creating a route it does depend on whether they can aquire the license to use the branding of the TOC's / operators on the route. Hentis
Well... dtg mat did explain why a minute ago. Many people where suggesting more US freight and Sherman Hill did really good for TSC so they presumed it'd be the same for TSW. So uhh.. OBJECTION! Your honor, I have proof that this Witness's claim is valid therefore crushing the Proseucutions entire case like a Deck of Cards!
Sherman Hill for TSC was more complete, it had the entirely of track 3. It has more loco DLCs than any other US route I believe (Though mostly 3rd party) All we got for Sherman Hill for TSW was a partially incomplete route with the laziest loco DLC ever created for TSW for it.
Honestly modern US freight just sucks in general, it lacks variety that even the late 90s and early 2000s had. At least some older locos still ran on the mainline then. Today it's 75% GE wide cabs, with some EMDs (Which completely fell off as a loco builder). And when most TSW US freight routes just offer the same A-B runs but on a different part of the continent with a different Class 1, it looks boring to the average player. Clinchfield was special, and I don't think any modern route will offer an as varied operation that it did.
As I said either earlier in this thread or maybe another one, US long haul freight is great as a dispatcher or watching video clip highlights on DVD or Blu-ray but can become a yawnfest when actually driving - Notch 8 up the hill, full dynamics down the hill. Now a shortline railroad, like Carlton Coast or McCloud River as I mentioned previously could bring a more intriguing style of gameplay. No set schedules but you have to run the traffic according to the customer needs along the route, drop off cars and leave them to be loaded/unloaded returning later to pick them up. Kind of how Run 8 does it albeit with a commodity element - you don't get timber products out of the lumber yard unless they get the logs and the paper mill won't run without the pulp and woodchips coming in.
Edit: Found it. Where is the best place to make suggestions? Not a route request or a traction unit request but rather a QoL suggestion?
Glossop isn't too bad, and was probably only released as a "filler route" before their next big release which they seem to be working on.
