Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by WonterRail, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Good point RedRev. More than likely old LMS sleeping cars on the less high profile trains.
    However at some point we will get a route where the player will end up working an overnight train so it wouldn't hurt to get the 3D modellers started. Would be interesting as a virtual passenger, lie on the bunk rather than sitting down.
     
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  2. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    You would hope a dining/catering vehicle of some description would be included as they were very much part of the long distance/express passenger scene at the time.
     
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  3. Quentin

    Quentin Well-Known Member

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    LMS 12-wheel dining or sleeping cars were regular visitors to Preston during this period, and well into the 60s.
     
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  4. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

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    Well, I would do a separate thread for this, but since I was the one that first made this thread, I might as well share it here anyways. But we finally have the stats for Liverpool-Crewe:

    This surely means that release can't be too far away now. I would guess Late May/Early June time, but lets wait and see on that.

    Steamdb: https://steamdb.info/app/1282590/history/?changeid=U:29389840
     
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  5. Stephen Crofts

    Stephen Crofts Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant news. We’ll whenever it is, it will be a special moment.
     
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  6. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    "Love Me Tender". Absolutely brilliant!
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
  7. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Nice find Wonter.
     
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  8. Challenger3985

    Challenger3985 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah baby, not to far from release now.
     
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  9. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Active Member

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    so we can expect the release date of the Liverpool - Crewe SOS in about 6 weeks from now, just cross your finger guys.
     
  10. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    upload_2022-4-7_16-0-33.png
     
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Kind of surprised they missed out "Ticket to Ride" and "Day Tripper."
     
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  12. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Active Member

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    Or "We Can Work It Out" for completing every difficult scenarios. :D
     
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  13. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Or "A Hard Day's Night" for a nighttime scenario with complications.
     
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  14. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Guess that puts the kibosh on anyone who was hoping for a tank engine or shunter then :/

    Still, nice find and I'm looking forward to it
     
  15. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yellow submarine - flush the toilet once (sorry...).
     
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  16. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    What about 'Thomas and Friends'?
     
  17. MRFS

    MRFS Member

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    Screenshot 2022-04-07 220142.jpg
     
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  18. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    WCML Liverpool-Crewe has Henry The Black Five as your mixed Traffic locomotive if made. TVL Huddersfield Line has Class 101 Daisy Class 08 Diesel Paxton. Have GWML Steam Era 1950s You're going to get GWR 57xx Duck GWR 14xx Oliver with Toad brake vans as a layer PC Gen 9 console instead of Jinty & Pug Arthur. BML Eastcoast way Steam Electric Thomas LBSCR E2 also layer to WCML Crewe.
     
  19. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Pedant warning!

    Daisy was a fictional single car version of a Metro-Cammell unit and if it had existed would have been given a different tops code to class 101 I would imagine.

    I would imagine we might get a black five at some point as having a LMS route without one would be like having a GWR route without a Pannier or 1970's ECML route without a Deltic.
     
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  20. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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    To be honest it's essentially a class 121 with 101 mechanics and no big exhausts.
     
  21. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I mean it's now for months clear which locos come with that route. So it's not a surprise. But still possible as loco DLC.
     
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  22. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    I might have to tell you this if you take the Rev Awdry original words it turns out she is a Class 101 DMU. He even described how she was made which was buying an OO Scale Class 101 then modified .
    Black Five Henry can be a DLC for WCML Liverpool Crewe also LMS Arthur can be DLC here
    Journey Mode chapters 3 & 4
    Mixed Traffic Driver Black Five Locomotive
    Ivatt 2MT Driver LMS Arthur.
     
  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Just pondering why a thread about a very real steam route and locos has descended into a Thomas etc. discussion... :)
     
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  24. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    You cant talk about British steam without Thomas

    At least, not if you’ve ever had kids
     
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  25. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    It was bound to crop up with both the Liverpool and steam connections,

    Liverpool = Beatles = Ringo = Thomas = Steam trains = Spirit of Steam = Liverpool

    and the circle is complete.
     
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  26. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how you got from Ringo to Thomas.

    However, OldVern is right:

    "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, understood as a child and thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things."
    1 Corinthians 13.
     
  27. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Correct and WCML Crewe needs a Mixed traffic locomotive therefore LMS Black Five Henry will fit with Fish Wagons. That needs the introduction of Jinty because DTG will have a hard time finding Pug due to them being Scrapped at Wales or Rotherham CF Booth like unrefurbished BKL 1972 Stock
    Here's Jinty in British Rail Black[​IMG]
    Journey Chapters if Henry & Jinty are DLC
    Chapter 3 Black Five Driver
    Chapter 4 Jinty Driver
     
  28. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Active Member

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    Ringo Starr was the narrator for first 2 series of Thomas & Friends (1984-1986), that's why we linked Ringo and Thomas.
     
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  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I get the connection but still, we are not likely to get or even want anything Thomas related in TSW!

    A Black Five has got to come fairly quickly after release or so I would hope. At home on many other potential routes too.
     
  30. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Thank heavens for that!

    Since none of us can remember when the last UK/US loco dlc was released, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
     
  31. MRFS

    MRFS Member

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    FWIW, and as I'm waiting on an update, a minor grammatical observation: in 1Cor13:11 κατήργηκα τὰ τοῦ νηπίου is the "things of the child", not 'childish things'.
     
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  32. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    No English speaker would ever use this expression.

    Back on topic, please.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
  33. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    In the real world World 'things of the child' and 'childish things' are two separate things.

    And on what planet do you hail from not knowing Ringo was the narrator on Thomas? LOL
     
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  34. MRFS

    MRFS Member

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    Greek translations have been part of the dev process for the route, so arguably on-topic if not obviously so... ;)
     
  35. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Any Brit under 40, the first steam train we encountered would likely have been Thomas, it's likely the primary reason we became railfans
     
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  36. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

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    Man, I can't wait for when people starting putting faces on the two locos on the two locos and sharing them on Creators Club. That's going to be fun!

    But jokes aside, I have edited the first post of this thread to now include what has been confirmed to be coming with this route. This is also include in that part, but I am also going to put here, the list of rolling stock that has confirmed to be coming with the route. This will always be updated as new information comes in, but for now, there's what rolling stock has been confirmed so far:

    Available Rolling Stock
    • LMS Jubilee Class 4-6-0 in BR Green Livery
    • LMS Stanier Class 8F 2-8-0 in BR Weathered Black
    • BR Mark 1 Coaches in both BR Crimson & Cream (Blood & Custard) and Maroon Liveries (FK, TSO & BSO variants included)
    • 16tn Mineral Wagon
    • Conflats (with small & large containers, as well as empty)
    • 5 Plank Coal Wagon
    • 2-Axle Box Van (Same as the one from NTP's BR Heavy Freight Pack)
    • BR 20tn Standard Brake Wagon
    I have also been doing so research as to what this routes timetable might be like, using the information from an archive timetable from 1958 found on a website called Timetable World. The link to it is down below and I have to say, it is a fantastic website for finding out information on, not only the timetable from this route, but also a variety of timetables for various eras gone by. I highly recommend that you check it out if you haven't already:

    https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=1987099b-01c5-47f7-a8dd-ba173774ceb5

    But getting into this discussion, from using the information provided on that timetable (Found in table 96), I was able to break it down to find out just how many services that this route has the potential to provide, which that number ended up coming to 95 services. Now I want you to keep in mind two things:

    1. This does not include the freight services, as they are not included on this timetable, which is probably going to play and big part in how this timetable turns out.

    2. This number came out of a timetable set on a Saturday, as I discovered that back in those days, more services ran on a Saturday during the Summer holidays, so that's something to keep an eye on if this timetable what's have as many services as can be allowed.

    But moving on into dissecting that number, I actually found out that this route won't just been constantly made up of full-line runs between Liverpool and Crewe. Now while it would be what the timetable is mainly made up of (including a few services that travel the whole route, but don't stop anywhere other than Liverpool Lime Street, probably represented as AI) there are also some services that join the route at Runcorn, coming from Chester which then make there way towards Liverpool Lime Street (same happens in reverse). I was even able to find a few Liverpool bound services that start/stop at Ditton Junction and don't even cross the Ethelfleda Viaduct over the Mersey towards Runcorn and Crewe, probably as these services then go on towards Lower Level station at Warrington Bank Quay, back when that station existed (Closed in 1963).

    However, even if I said that I was able to work out 95 potential services, is that the number that I actually think this route will have? Well, maybe with freight, it will be around there, but in terms of passenger services, probably not.

    The thing is here, I'm still not sure on how many of those services that the Jubilee did. I expect that it will probably take charge of the express services that only stop at the key stations (Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street) but for stopping/commuter services, I don't think it would look right to have a Jubilee working those services and I think you lot would probably think the same. But then, I did have a thought and I want to ask you all this question...

    …how would you feel if DTG opted to use the 8F in some passenger services on this route?

    Now as much as the 8F is a freight engine, is has been reported that it did do a few passenger services back in those days, and were reportedly quite good at it, being able to reach 60 mph while hauling one thanks to a free-running front end. But even if it's not quite what worked some of the more commutery services on this route, I actually think using the 8F on those services would look a lot better than using the Jubilee which seemly is better suited for express work.

    I said this when giving my first thoughts on this route and I'll say it again here, this routes timetable will come down to three factors.

    1. What passenger services did the Jubilee run on this route, and how many of them will be represented

    2. What will freight look like on this route and how many of them will there be?

    3. What the whole plan regarding the turnaround at Liverpool Lime Street? Will we finally see usage of the turntable in service mode? Will we see Jubilees running backwards around the loop at Edge Hill? Who knows what will happen, but we will hopefully soon find out.

    …and that doesn't even cover what AI services could be included here too. I feel like the whole discussion regarding AI at Liverpool Lime Street goes in the discussion of 'What will the turnaround look like up there' as I have just mentioned, but I do expect that there will be AI around Crewe, especially for services heading up the WCML towards Warrington and beyond towards Scotland.

    But all in all, this has the potential to be a rather fascinating timetable. Of course, it going to be nowhere near the biggest, but what this timetable lack in size, it will probably make up in depth, lots and lots of depth. I mean we have all the right rolling stock to make a great timetable out of, but what I'm probably most looking forward to out of this timetable is being able to experience what this part of the UK was like during the steam-era. From seeing Jubilee roaring up the WCML with a Liverpool bound express to seeing an 8F hauling a variety of freight trains up & down the main line (something you can't see nowadays on the national network) and so much more.

    But again, this is all just speculation, hopefully we will find out in the coming weeks as to what this timetable will truly be like, but is certainly has the potential a timetable unlike any other, as it gives us a glimpse as to what railways in the UK were like during the age of steam.
     
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  37. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather on release we had no commuter trains hauled by either loco. Then release a mixed traffic tank loco dlc for these services
     
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  38. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    I really, really hope dtg thinks ahead here. Wonterrail pointed out the huge potential of this route.

    Even if dtg hasnt the loco for commuter services when sos releases, they have now the chance of making an extended timetable. This means with additional loco & freight dlcs the services could just get activated sinced they were made & tested in the first place.

    This is a chance for dtg, and since the route took a lot of research its even more important to use its potential on every corner.

    Im highly awaiting this not just because the steam locos, also to see if dtg has improved their internal processes. Special attention to services without the rolling stock is very important in my opinion.

    The consequences of ignoring that might end in excuses like "we would have to make the entire timetable new..". Im confident liverpool crewe will be a great peace of dlc. My only worries are that dtg might manage to make a fire and forget dlc like with many other routes.
     
  39. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    That will create another problem are the Steam Locomotives Air or Vacuum Brakes. If Steam locomotives are Air brakes change them to Vacuum Brakes. On the other hand if vacuum brake equipped no brake change is needed.
     
  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No UK steam engine had air brakes. All vacuum.
     
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  41. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    You can see the vacuum hose really well on uk steam locomotives. The other hose is the steam train heating.

    Screenshot_20220411-061322_Chrome.jpg

    Will see how they handle the 8f, since only a few were equipped with train heating.
     
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  42. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    That should explain it because I was thinking of US Steam Locomotives of Similiar age having air brakes in order to comply with Railroad Safety Appliance Act of 1893
     
  43. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Thomas is not in this route. I can confirm he is ill

    631B5964-7319-4952-818A-D8AF89868DE7.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
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  44. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    8F’s more likely to be used as carriage pilots, as was the case at Euston.
     
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  45. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Completely wrong, off the top of my head i can think of the LBSCR with dual braked steam loco's. Three pipes, air, vacuum and steam heat.
    There are others that i would have to look up.
     
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  46. Suryaaji#2369

    Suryaaji#2369 Active Member

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    There are so many examples preserved steam engine that have mainline operation certificate are equipped with dual brake system, can be switched between air brake (manually lapped air, but please correct if i'm wrong) and vacuum brake.
     
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  47. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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    To say no UK steamers had air brakes is a wildly inaccurate statement. When automatic train brakes were mandated in 1889 there was something of a battle going on since virtually every railway now needed to adopt an automatic brake. There were two main contenders, the automatic air brake and the automatic vacuum brake and there was something of a divide between the two with some companies opting for the vacuum and then others opting for the air brake.

    Railways which opted for the automatic air brake include the Caledonian Railway, North British Railway, North Eastern Railway, LBSCR and the IOWSR although its fair to say the majority of railways went with the automatic vacuum brakes. At Grouping all the railways standarised on vacuum brakes (although to an extent the Southern continued with air brakes on electric stock), however rolling stock and locos which were air braked usually retained their air brakes but often in additioned gained vacuum brakes as well. This arrangement quite often continued right past nationlisation and into the 60s although by that time most of the rolling stock had been withdrawn but the locomotives often retained their air brakes now relegated mostly to being an awkward loco brake. There were odd isolated systems however which fully retained the air brake like the Isle of Wight.

    There were also some trials in the 1950s of some steamers with air brakes, there was a particulary notable one of a Brittania fitted with air brakes as a trial, although nothing ever came of that persay. In preservation various mainline steamers have been made dual braked often using equipment from Class 37s or similar (e.g Flying Scotsman or Tornado), while a few preserved railways mostly narrow gauge railways in Wales have switched from Vacuum brakes to Air brakes, notably the Talyllyn, Corris and the Vale of Rheidol, and yes the Isle of Wight steam railway still operates with Air brakes.
     
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  48. MRFS

    MRFS Member

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    FWIW, the Talyllyn managed to get away without continuous brakes until more than a century after Armagh. I've guarded many non-continuously braked passenger trains. There were no continuous brakes at all until the 1990s.
     
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  49. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how it being present on preserved steam locos matters in this case, preserved locos have all sort of retrofits done to them. For example the running Big Boy is fitted with Positive Train Control, something that they never would've had in regular service.
     
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  50. WonterRail

    WonterRail Well-Known Member

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