Liverpool-crewe 1958 Is The First Steam Route

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by WonterRail, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Consider we have the following that I believe could take steam heritage

    Sherman
    Horseshoe
    Some of the German

    plenty of loco dlc scope whilst older route dlc is researched
     
  2. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Just Crewe to Liverpool has good scope for DLC, as already mentioned the following are possibilities:
    Class 3F 0-6-0 Jinty and additional freight stock.
    Coronation/Duchess or Princess and LMS P3 rolling stock pack.
    4MT "Crab" and/or tank loco local passenger set (possibly P1 rolling stock).
    Black Five and BR Standard 73xxx.

    By then hopefully another steam route will be in the pipeline and in the meantime there is scope to layer some of the DLC in as railtours on the existing classic routes or the WSR.
     
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  3. coursetim

    coursetim Member

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    As previously voiced I do worry a bit about quality assurance and the final release. But seeing how passionate Matt was for it gives me a bit of light at the end of the tunnel and hope that DTG can get such a complex route running on both PC and Consoles to an acceptable level

    I know its a while away but I am excited for the route! And intrigued to see what they do for the shunting and local services issue that has already been mentioned!
     
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  4. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...couldn't see the live stream last night, so I'm very pleased about the first "Spirit of Steam" screenshots and some new route infos! Recently I made a suggestion about the "Hogwarts Express" or the corresponding steam loco: the GWR 4900er Class. And now we'll get a similar looking Class 5 version (thanks wikipedia). The F8 freight version and the tiny freight wagons of this era also stand out.
    I'm excited to see and hear them driving in TSW for the first time. Hopefully the steam effects don't put too much strain on the frame rate, maybe we'll see a little detail difference on last gen compared to next gen consoles or PCs. ;)
     
  5. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    Yay :)
     
  6. TimTri

    TimTri Well-Known Member

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    I really enjoyed the reveal yesterday, here are some of my thoughts:
    • I don’t really have anything to do with steam trains at all. I was born at the beginning of the 21st century and live in an area of Germany without rail tours, so I’ve maybe seen steam locos in museums a few times and that’s it. But that doesn’t stop me from appreciating the huge amount of research, love and passion that is clearly going into this route and the associated locos. That alone makes me excited for more!
    • I really hope they have some local stopping services on the timetable. From what I’ve read so far in this thread, the two included locos only cover freight and express passenger services. It’s always a shame to see fully modeled stations at the side of the tracks without being able to stop there, so I really hope that is possible in this route - especially because it looks like adding existing rolling stock as layers while retaining historical accuracy is not possible.
    • Matt confirmed steam is coming to all platforms (including last gen), and I’m wondering how that can be achieved. They’re probably going to have to significantly reduce the level of detail of the whole SimuGraph setup and/or reduce the enormous amount of moving parts on the locos to make this somewhat playable on Gen 8. And that doesn’t even take the characteristic steam/smoke effects into account. I wish them luck! :D
    • I’m wondering how large the target audience of these steam routes is. We’re obviously in a bit of a bubble here on these forums… my assumption is that there are mostly seasoned railfans, which is supported by the huge amount of personal recollections and anecdotes about steam we often see here. But looking at the broader player base of TSW2, we also encounter a huge amount of casual players who will likely be rather frightened by the huge complexity of steam and thus probably stay away from it, preferring more modern and simple routes. Steam development has taken up a huge amount of time and resources (= money), and I’m just hoping it pays off in the long run. They’re certainly under a lot of pressure to do a good job with this first route.
     
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  7. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    I share the same opinion as you, I would much rather no local services until a suitable add-on or layer becomes available (add-on would be my preferred way) :)
     
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  8. Scorpion71

    Scorpion71 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent but can we also get the fire going, can be very cold in those vans in the Winter! As kids, we used to go to the sidings where one or two of them were and get the fire going, used to be our sort of den but shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone.
     
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  9. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Yes, when your GPU overheats trying to render all those yards and sidings and multiple tracks everywhere!!! :)
     
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  10. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to see a couple of Diesels added as DLC in the future, I have seen photo's of the 08 at Crewe then so that would be good. I don't know if running steam and Diesel on the same route would cause problems?

    I do think DTG have an opportunity that would see them get more right than wrong. If we are being honest we know it will be released with some bugs, going by what has gone in the past this will be guaranteed but the goal is limiting those bugs as minor so not game breaking.

    With Steam being a special release for DTG on TSW2 and there being very knowledgeable people on these forums they could involve the people here with the making of it. For example if DTG regularly show updates and pics of what they are working on it will give the people here the chance to give feedback at every stage. Obviously some things can't be shared but others can, scenery, the Loco's, Track, stations ETC. As DTG can only work from photo's imo you will be surprised what some people have access too.

    And with DTG do like to do 'Experiments' this would be a more successful one and may save them work afterwards if mistakes are spotted or DTG may get everything perfect first time? I don't think they will do this but if they did it would get a lot of interest no?
     
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  11. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Thing is whatever they share everyone will have an opinion on and for the most part every opinion will be different in some aspect or other. You risk having a route built by commitee. And we all know how bureaucracy causes additional costs and delays
     
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  12. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    The simmugraph looks extended and advanced. Matt said on a stream before s.o.s got announced that there is an engineer working on that. In TS Classic on the Jinty you could blow your cylinders when you didnt open the c..ocks. Aslo the lubricant system could be activated, but not sure if the loco took damage from not doing this.

    Basicly im not that worried, because in steam locos almost every interactable handle / valve is driving relevant. In a diesel loco a discusion is legitim of implementing traction cut out, because this is not normally driving relevant. In a steam loco you need everything, the dampers, injectors, cylinder c.ock handle, water valves.....,

    The only things im not sure is, if there is damage when you smash the cylinders with condense water inside (like in the 3f of ts). Or if the lubrication system can be activated. many ts steam addons had different colors of the steam, so you knew if the fire is too weak or if you are wasting coal (the smoke becomes grey, white or black)
    In the jinty a closed or open firebox made a difference when driving, so i hope they are gonna look also for details like that.

    They should take the time they need for making this a top first steam dlc. Its a huge task, and im patient.
     
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  13. dudleybrooke

    dudleybrooke Member

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    I think this is the most ambitious route that DTG have ever undertaken, it's huge and complex. Then there is the new steam technology. This is really a big bite, I wish them luck.
     
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  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if you will get a game over "blowback" if you have the firebox door open going through a tunnel!
     
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  15. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that is a danger and DTG would need a thick skin for sure. I was just thinking about the people who knew more about this route and could highlight mistakes but I take your point.
     
  16. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well for anyone to have experience of this route at the time it’s set, by now they would be in their late 70’s or early 80’s.
    And beware the expert witness (says he posted about Mark One seat coverings!). I remember years ago when doing the Cambrian Coast for MSTS with 3DTS, we had one particular guy who was adamant we had missed a culvert or small bridge at a particular location. Well, apart from the fact that MSTS didn’t do culverts or small bridges very well, reference to all the material I had showed no such structure at that location. So the guy was kindly thanked for his input and promptly forgotten about!
     
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  17. Ravi

    Ravi Well-Known Member

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    This is great. First day purchase for me. I can't wait for more steam routes to come. I want to see a narrow gauge steam at some point. It would be fun.
     
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  18. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Disagree with comments about this route being boring, Lime Street is a grand station in anyones eyes and the gradient out of it a large challenge to get started. Then it will be past the vast yards in Edge Hill and a run through the suburbs until Halebank when a bit of countryside starts. This should be brief as Widnes comes into view and the line swings up and right towards the Ethelfreda bridge over the Mersey. That will be awesome to do. After Runcorn it's over Weaver junction and the Weaver viaduct and the run to Crewe through Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford. Crewe will be massive to see in this era. Its still impressive today in its reduced form but this will be something else.

    I was disappointed years ago when railworks went for York to Newcastle over Crewe to Liverpool not just because of my local connections but there is far less to see in between. Liverpool at the time was still a massive railway centre also with lines from the docks feeding in.

    Let's hope its OK on the performance front. I was pondering a RTX 3070 machine today in anticipation.....
     
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  19. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    The advantage for DTG in using Mark 1s is that they can be used on just about any vintage BR route, whereas prewar coaches mostly stayed in the regions where their parent railroads had been. Stanier stock wouldn't be much use on a steam/early diesel ECML.
     
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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Well, DTG have the numbers for how well steam routes sell in TS vs modern and vintage diesel/electric, so presumably they believe the market exists.
     
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  21. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Also I assume that DTG aren't intending every steam route or loco to take 18 months to make. Developing new stuff takes longer, once they're in their flow it'll be quicker I imagine.
     
  22. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    But the same can be easily said for most locomotives, though.
     
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  23. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    what will operate local passenger/light freight on this route? the jubilees were more for express pax while the 8fs were more heavy freight. wondering what will be used as station pilots
     
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  24. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Not sire how I feel about this route. Firstly, I know absolutely nothing about steam trains and that era of locos. When steam was first announced I wasn’t bothered either way. Now the route has been announced I am leaning more towards seeing more of it but will want to see more before I decide whether it will be on my “wait for a sale” list.
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I believe 8F's were used along with Jintys at Euston on ECS to Willesden. Likewise sometimes engines off a previous arrival could be used tender first to move ECS away, then light engine to the depot. Same could apply in reverse, once turned and serviced work in ECS to the station then on release become the train engine for a departure. Of course all this will require impeccable choreography and a massive amount of scripting to work properly and avoid locking up the station.

    At this stage we don't know what the timetable will consist of. Certainly wasn't a clock face hourly service to/from Euston like it is now. There used to be a site with old Bradshaws on it (Ribble something) but seems to have vanished.
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Most, yes but not all. Black Fives and 8Fs could be seen nearly anywhere. It's the express passenger engines which really become road-specific.
     
  27. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    My Late father was a keen spotter in the 50s in Liverpool, he would tell me tales of seeing the prototype Deltic and 10000/10001 amongst the Scots, Jubs and Fives. I grew up in the 80s on the route near Mossley Hill so not my era but definitely interested. I hope the scripting works out so that operations can be without daft lock ups.
     
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  28. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I didn't expect anything other than mark 1's with this first steam route, but if they want to strive for realism then seeing mark 1's and nothing else on steam period routes is wholly unrealistic.

    In the late 50's/early 60's mark 1's were express passenger coaches and would rarely have been seen off the beaten track or on local services.
     
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  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, have managed to abstract the daytime Down Liverpool weekday service from Euston in 1958 from the SIAM game (which runs from 0700 to 1900). There are not actually that many trains:
    7.55 Liverpool 8
    8.30 Liverpool 7
    9. 5 Liverpool Relief 6
    10.30 Liverpool 7
    12.30 Liverpool 7
    14.25 Liverpool Relief 6
    14.30 Liverpool 7
    16.45 Liverpool Relief 6
    16.55 Liverpool 7
    18.10 Liverpool 8

    The number to the right indicates the "P" class of loco required.
     
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  30. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting that DTG chose to place this first steam route specifically in 1958, right on the cusp of dieselization. That's why there's so much discussion here about transitional dlc. It leaves open the possibility of a diesel add-on pack with maybe a Class 40 for expresses and an early dmu, like a 104 or 105 for stopping services. Or am I in left field? ;)
     
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  31. tbaac

    tbaac Well-Known Member

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    Part of me hopes that any diesels can be disabled on the route (maybe by just not buying the possible-future DLC I suppose).
     
  32. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    According to the stream, it's 1958 (as opposed to the original intended date, 1955) because of the availability of research material from that year.

    I think that if DTG were really thinking in terms of diesel layering, they would have shoved the date forward into the 60s when the 37s, 45s and 47s were in use - and wouldn't have been thinking 1955!.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  33. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    That's interesting, presumably therefore the Jubilee wouldn't have run many of those services, as it was a 6P.
     
  34. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    7P would require a Royal Scot, then.
     
  35. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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  36. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Class 104's were more Manchester, Leeds and Darlington based, they would have likely worked some Manchester to Liverpool trains but I imagine Liverpool to Crewe locals would have been supplied by Allerton depot until the EMU's came, so mostly class 108's, there may have been some early Derby lightweights. Class 105's would not have been seen in Liverpool at that time either, I think the Derby area was their main Midland region stomping ground at the time.

    It might be the case that DMU's never even worked Liverpool to Crewe services. It is likely that steam gave way to electric.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  37. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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  38. MRFS

    MRFS Member

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    1958.

    Why 1958? Well, I don't want to give too much away as I suspect there may be another stream featuring the research, but this was the last complete year before a lot of reworking at Crewe prior to the electrification, plus a lot of the minor signalling changes at the intermediate signalboxes before the electrification were only just starting to take place - things like the "skyscraper" signals at Ditton (as you'll see on the stream) being changed.

    1958 was the last year before the electrification stageworks began in earnest.
     
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  39. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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  40. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    A brief look at those timetables shows quite a lot of trains actually, some of the expresses going to Birmingham not London. I wonder if we will get a Mk1 sleeper for the overnights?! Interesting to note the restaurant car only working between Euston and Crewe or vv, whether it would be detached/attached at Crewe or simply destaffed I couldn’t say. Also evident a fair bit of local traffic, which is definitely going to need to be layered in but not with a Jub.
     
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  41. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant, well done for finding this!

    I really hope that this route comes with the real timetable - it's got some real variety and trains going off at all sorts of strange intervals. Several of the stoppers out of Lime Street appear to terminate either at Ditton Jnc or Runcorn - it'll be interesting to see what happens to the locomotives and carriages then.

    Again, seeing some of the stopping trains really does suggest that a local mixed traffic locomotive (tank engine or similar) would be necessary to fully recreate the route (you can use an 08 as a shunter, but I doubt they would have been seen pulling passenger trains or freight any more than a few miles).
     
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  42. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    Very happy with this announcement...

    side thought - will we ever get a modern Northern England route or not?
     
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  43. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    All depends on Northern giving the license - traditionally the Northern operator/s have always turned their nose up at it (hence why it's always debranded in TS1). May well be if we do it's in the early 90s with sprinters (wouldn't make much difference, not much has changed since then fundamentally)
     
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  44. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    I think the ones which appear to terminate at Ditton Junction will actually have been going to Warrington (Ditton Junction being where the Warrington/Manchester and Runcorn/Crewe lines divide).
     
  45. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Actually there are a few hefty gaps in the week (far more SO services). For example on the Up...
    You have a 1205 to Ditton stopper with the next departure I can see being the 1335 to Ditton, then The Manxman non stop at 1405 to Euston (how will that be handed at Crewe?). There are actually more trains towards Chester via Frodsham than towards Crewe
     
  46. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    I may be reading it wrong (I've only had a quick look as I'm supposed to be working but frankly I'm so bored I could just dissolve at any moment), it seems the train splits at Crewe?
     
  47. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    It would be interesting if anyone has access to a working timetable that includes freight workings and ECS too.
     
  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    You could be right, as some mention a Rugby portion.
    This is going to get interesting!
     
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  49. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    One thing that stands out is that the stopping patterns of the longer distance trains are far less predictable than today. Take the 0905 SX Lime St - Euston. It calls at Edge Hill, Runcorn, Hartford and Crewe. Quite a few of the longer distance trains have a Mossley Hill call as well. Hopefully that will be reflected in the game, and we'll get the opportunity to stop at a variety of stations - rather than endless opportunities to do Lime St-Runcorn-Crewe, which is what we would (correctly) get if it were a modern timetable.
     
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  50. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    So just how many of these in cab switches,buttons,valve controls,levers will be used to operate this locomotive?
     

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