Not entirely sure who you’re aiming that at, but either way: Would you rather DTG just scrap the whole route and train over a logo?
It is disappointing but using it as a stick to beat DTG with, when the decision has been clearly taken out of their hands is pretty poor. Personally it won't bother me much, there are going to be unbranded trains on the remastered GWE.
Woah, thats a whole lot of words you're shoving into my mouth there!- I thought it was clearly aimed at LNWR, but there you go.
Initially my frustration were at DTG as I suspected this had been known about, but going off what JD has said it has only come about in the last week, which makes me think it is on the TOC. Still makes me consider if I will be buying the route, as unlike GWE the 350 is the face of the route and there is no option to use an old fully licenced timetable, or disable its layers. Along with this all station signage, etc will not have any sort of branding. I had my doubts about it before and these are just adding to that mix. A lot of thinking to be done.
Wasn't "shoving" any words into your mouth, but there you go. I was simply stating that it was unclear who it was aimed at, and was asking what seemed a perfectly valid question? Apparently not.
I don’t understand why companies don’t like their logo/liverys in games because ultimately isn’t it a positive because there’re advertising their brand and surely there’re getting paid aswell!?
I made the post with the intention of expressing frustration at LNWR's actions, then you reply asking which is barely related to what I'm saying, not trying to be argumentative, I'm just confused.
It's worth noting that the TS version of the route had London Midland branding. While that meant that it was anachronistic, we did get fully branded liveries... I do wonder if doing that again would have been a better idea, since unbranded LM-liveried trains are still a common sight on the WCML.
It just goes to show… BR Classic is the way to go! (And yes, I never won any awards for poetry at school).
Well, they did have the choice to go with a late 90s setting, which would have provided a much cooler route and a locomotive that could be used on both passenger and freight work, but since the railways began in 2012 according to DTG there's not much that can be done now.
I really do wonder what the issue is with these companies. What promotes your business is good right? These licenses are not free to a game developers. I have used the railways far more now that I play TSW, before I would have just taken my car everywhere.
this is very annoying, though I was wondering why there was zero sideways on shots of the 350 in any of the launch collateral... e.g the actual headline image for the WCML has the Southern 377 in front of the 350 and none of the screen shots showed anything other than head on images. There was a glimpse of the LNWR branding in the DTG direct, so clearly something has been sprung upon DTG.... it's very disappointing as I don't like unbranded stock (I've also pre-ordered on the assumption I was getting an authentic product). Very surprising outcome given WMT were so helpful on BHM XCity.
Holy cow I didn’t even realize that! I thought it was strange how San Bernardino and Frankfurt’s new trains were at the front while WCML’s was in the back. It was to hide the branding! Can’t believe I didn’t catch their clever little tricks they were playing this whole time
Does this mean that DTG is now more open to doing routes with some branding removed? -Like doing the NEC without a MARC or SEPTA license? -Doing Florida without a Tri-Rail License? -Doing the Pacific Surfliner in San Diego without a COASTER license?
I wouldn't even have noticed if not for this topic. So the only thing missing is the logo and everything else in the livery is the same? Is it that easy to copy a train without license? For example if you would take the ICE train from Germany and only removed the DB logo you would not have to license the train? Seems to me the branding is more important if you are a local. Don't understand me wrong as I also would hate it if there was a Belgian route and the B logo was missing. I know it would feel off.
I assume you need another license to include US routes, other games includes branding on trains but doesn't have any real routes. Maybe it's different for the UK routes and train operator companies. All branding can be created with mods, but it's bad for the console players. We have the most important, real trains and routes. All painting can be unofficially done.
Every route I mentioned was created in TSC without the said Branding, but still had branded Amtrak trains.
How could it be related to the leak? I can't see any reason for it. Probably the TOC newer knew about the leak anyway. And people complaining about the unbranded train in this case should head straight to the Class 20 and touch the hotplate. The route was ready when it happened, lot of work and resources has been used already, of course they had to release it anyway. Now think about it, the route has leaked some months ago, most people know about WCML coming to TSW, but suddenly everything gets quiet because DTG decide to not release it with this unbanded 350. What would you want DTG to do? Release with only 390 or not at all, or release with an unbranded 350?
I saw in one of the posts about the GWE remaster addressing the whole “could you just recreate the livery without logo?” stuff and DTG Liam said this So I’m wondering if it applies here too?
This is a pretty mind-blowing situation. For a headline route on a brand new release to have this pop up just DAYS before release. DTG obviously built the entire route under the belief the licensing was in place. So what happened? Did LNWR just pull the rug out at the last minute? If so, why? Was it something DTG did, or an internal change in direction at the train company? Does it have anything to do with the election or the re-nationalization of parts of the railways? Does DTG have any recourse? This will probably hurt their sales. I'd be furious if I was DTG and this is how it went down. Or did DTG mess something up and make the route when their licensing agreement wasn't firm? Would players sending messages to LNWR help or hurt the situation? We saw something similar with the Swiss railways ending all cooperation with sims. I have to say this definitely took the wind out of the sails when it comes to my excitement for the route. I know it doesn't actually change anything about how the route plays and it does look good, but immersion breaking stuff always bugs me more than it should.
I recall in a recent roadmap stream within the last few months that Matt actually asked that we don’t go and bother operators with regards to licensing as it could ultimately mean the licensing is less likely to ever happen. I honestly think that for the best outcome, the best thing is to just leave it between DTG and the license holders to make arrangements
Yeah probably best. To be clear I wasn't talking about sending them an insult on social media demanding they put the license back, more like a respectful email saying hey this a great game and positive for your brand... but probably best left alone, too many people aren't respectful in that type of contact.
Yeah. I completely understand your thought process but ultimately I think the best bet is to just leave them to it. Even if LNWR were to receive a vast quantity of emails regarding a positive review for TSW, it wouldn’t affect or change their decision, and ultimately they could just get tired and could damage any future possibilities of any licensing agreements for the future
My theory is that DTG were under the impression that using the LNWR branding would be OK, as they got the WMR licence for the Birmingham X City, since theyre part of the same franchise. But I'm pretty sure LNWR are run by a different company (possibly Abellio?), so they might have revoked permission to use the brands... still a bad move from LNWR nonetheless
I believe WMR and LNWR are both owned or parented by “West Midlands Trains” - it’s completely possible for the parent owner (or however you describe it) to allow permissions for branding for one operator and not the other (Take GWR & TPE for example when both previously owned by First Group) Personally I don’t think DTG would have assumed anything. Ultimately there’s a whole host of reasons why they may have withdrawn the agreement, and as unfortunate as it is we just have to accept it and hope things can change in the future. Personally for me, as disappointing as it is not having the LNWR Logos / branding, it’s not the end of the world. It’s certainly not something that would affect my decision to purchase it or not.
I don't think this tells us anything tbh. All it says to me is that their hands were tied and they had no choice but to simply remove the logos - with the alternative being to ask LNWR really nicely, scrap the route or delay it and ask for a London Midland license and then make that a thing. It's only the third DLC in TSW to lack real logos, along with Holiday Express (fictional) and Island Line 2022 (Rivet...) - IOW2022 is the only route to date which was built with the knowledge that the license wasn't available. Dovetail haven't ever done it in real-life TSW routes.
I guess this is better than DTG knowing they wouldn't get the brand from the start, because then they probably wouldn't have made it, and an unbranded WCML is miles better than no WCML at all
that route would be WMT (or WMR as i cant remember whicvh) which is the same company so may prove some issues. unless its just LNWR managers being d**ks
I was preparing to shell out the £60 for deluxe. Unfortunately no way now with it not being branded. The only way they can fix it at this point is include the branded 390 in the WCML route to make up for it.
The lack of LNWR branding is unfortunate. However personally it would not be enough for me to cancel my purchase, it isn't DTG's fault by the sounds of it. The 350 still looked good as did the route as a whole, not that I'm a huge fan of the livery anyway.
There is no way DTG were just 'assuming' anything about their licence rights. Matt mentioned on the stream how Avanti were very clear that they only wanted the latest refurbished interiors for the 390, which makes sense, it's advertising what is a very nice looking train to travel on. You can't tell me that DTG were working that closely with Avanti but not speaking with LNWR, something must have changed on the LNWR end of things.
Well if history has taught us anything it is that cranks can and will spoil the fun, remember the debacle with 47500 and how it was going to be done in green until the guys at West Coast got bombarded with emails and letters from cranks telling them their opinion, so maroon it went... Heck we still see it in pres today "paint it this colour / no paint it that colour / why's it in this variation? it never wore that before" etc... Now as for the WCML South issue, well it's not too late for DTG to bin off the 350 & 390 and bring in the JT 87 and the classic BR diesels and turn it into the early 1990s haha just wishful thinking of course
isn't that why we have the Livery Designer. someone can add the logo to locomotive and upload it to creator club. i mean i seen people paint the csx ac4400cw in Canadian pacific paint theme and i don't think CPKC has come after dtg or the person that made it.. i think.
WMR wouldn't be an issue as their brand / license is owned by Transport for West Midlands. Calling LNWR's managers "d**ks" is totally out of line, by the way. They have every right to withdraw their permission and they owe us - the player - absolutely nothing. Insulting them for nothing just screams "I didn't get what I want, so **** you!".
Nah, this was a foolish and disrespectful move from LNWR's management. They went along with this all the way up until weeks before release and then suddenly decided to pull the rug from under the devs. The negative effects of this blunder can already be seen on the forums, with many saying they're cancelling preorders and/or waiting for a significant discount because of this (and no doubt not helped by the terrible quality of the route itself). But that's the way i see it anyway.
I totally agree with you on this. Your getting paid to have these logos put into games and it's advertisement aswell. Are LNWR not wanting free advertisement and the money they are getting paid? It's a huge positive for everyone. DTG can use their logo and LNWR get money and it can bring advertisement.. it's just rediculous.
I doubt LNWR care if people don't preorder the train game that doesn't feature them anyway. They lose nothing from those cancellations because, well, they pulled out before we got to this stage. It's in no way disrespectful: every TOC in the game agrees to work with DTG/whatever operator, or at least let them use their brand. It's an opt-in agreement - the TOCs are giving the Devs their brands to use. If they don't want to - they can. If they change their mind - they can. It's far from a blunder / foolish decision either. It'll ultimately do absolutely nothing to the company and TBH I don't think train operators really need that much advertisement. Want to go from London to Tring? Well, your average person will just buy a ticket, go to the platform shown on the boards, and not care if the train is Green or Black. TOCs make money from passengers, not folk who want to see the trains they drive in the game; and I'm willing to suggest the amount made from sales of TSW/WCMLS wouldn't do much for them anyway.
