Friends, In homage to Railway Magazines long running and rather excellent "Practice and Performance" archives, I thought it might be a good exercise to compare real running time logs with the efforts of you, the rail sim driver. I will endeavour to add more TSW routes and compare the running times we get, with those of real archive material. If you have any timings which you would like to share, then please do. I would like to iterate that this is for fun and interest only (especially if you share your runs too). Route #1: Preston to Carlisle (via Shap) Here is a table for the route, featuring runs by a Claughton, Royal Scot, Duchess, a Class 40 and the 10001 DE4 of 1948. It is interesting to see how good the steam locos were, but how much better the diesels are in sustained effort. The fastest steam loco run on the route (I could find), was recorded on 1st February 1961, when LMS Coronation Class 46242 (load 8) hauled the 09.05 Euston to Glasgow over the 90.1 mile route in 83.40. Therefore run 3 in the table must have been a fine effort indeed given the PWS in the Plumpton area. For locomotives in TSW5, and the Class 86 DLC ), I found the following runs, sticking to the steamy things first. The Jubilees weren't too common on WCML services, but SixBellsJunction had a railtour from February 1967, which saw 45562 Alberta run load 9 from Leeds (via Victoria) to Preston and onwards over the Cumbrian fells. Timings only sorry. There is a little extra running time allowed for the Jubilee but still holds up better than 10001! Moving on to more modern traction, we have proof that electrification really flattened out the gradients of the north west, and this will also be the case in WCMLoS. The fastest loco hauled electric run I could find in the evidently small amount of time I researched this piece was an unconfirmed 86 with load 11, which completed the 90.1 miles in just 58.52, quite remarkable. There is an official 'next best' however, from 1979. As Peaches & Herb were enjoying chart success with Reunited, class 86261 hauled a Manchester Victoria to Glasgow service (load 8) between Preston and Carlisle in just 65 minutes, and you must have a 'Heart of Glass' if you think that was 'Le Freak' of a run. 'Tragedy'.....ahem. More typically perhaps, is a nice archive from BR Basterfield at Locomotive Performance (tripod.com) You can certainly see that the 1:75 gradient of Shap had been well and truly flattened with electrification. The fastest run on record was seen on 10th July 2007, when Pendolino 390031 City of Liverpool took 56 minutes 17 seconds to do the trip. I can't find the record runs from Euston to Glasgow on the 'free' internet though... Diesel runs however, will be a different story. My membership of the Railway Performance Society lapsed 18 years ago. There are many thousands of archives to delve into there. I can however delve into my own memory banks, as a guard and then driver of diesel and electric traction over the route for over 20 years. I have a log or two I took which will appear here "soon", including what I believe to be the last mainline steam hauled passenger service of the 20th century.... Anyhoo, i hope you enjoy this thread, and find something interesting within. As I said, please feel free to add your timings and run details!
One from the late 90's and at a time when Virgin Cross Country services could throw up any combination of traction, due to poor reliability of their inherited Class 47 fleet. For one week in 1999, Virgin ran a 'top-n-tail' 47s with 4 Mk2 coach combination on the 1S45, 05.56 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh Waverley and return 1M04, 18.57 Edinburgh Waverley to Manchester Airport, in lieu of the booked 158 DMU. A welcome exchange! I recorded the working to and from Lancaster for 3 days in the week, and have attached a copy of the run to Carlisle on 9th September 1999. Celebrity Sulzers 488 (two tone green) and Waterman Railways Black 705 were on loan from Fragonset and were a good cop for a self- confessed Sulzer basher (I think I can admit that now, 25 years later ). My notes as follows: "47488 arrived into platform 3, 2 minutes down. We were still 2 minutes down as we left Lancaster and it became apparent that 488 was not pulling as well as 705 had, 2 days previously. However, she averaged 67mph on the climb to Oxenholme having lost a minute. A far more vigorous assault on Grayrigg ensued, the 7.1 mile climb taking a full minute less than 705 had done, in similar weather conditions. A poor run on Shap was to follow, as a result of a double-yellow at Tebay (the culprit never did reveal itself), the 5.4 mile ascent of the 1:75 done in 6.52, 48mph average, and 94 seconds slower than 705 on my previous run. Still 3 minutes late from Penrith, a good run to Carlisle was had, arrival into the Border City just a minute late in real terms, but due to the 17 minutes engineering allowance between Penrith and Carlisle, we appeared 16 early"! The tale goes on to Carstairs, where the train reversed, then 47705 took us to Edinburgh. And of course, 1M04 did the opposite move in the evening. If you are wondering about the 17 minutes 'engineering' padding on the northern section, it was very common to have Single Line Working in effect, not the case for our run though. 10A
Staying in 1999, and to the West Coast Main Line North, we have an interesting run behind 60800 Green Arrow. I believe this to be the last passenger hauled mainline steam working of the 20th century, (and I'll dine out on that as long as I can ). So as a driver (and ex 'Trainman D'), I could be used as the guard on EWS charter workings if needed. I was asked to cover this "Cumbrian Mountain Express" turn near New Years Eve 1999, it was an offer I couldn't refuse! The rake of Mk1 coaches had been brought from Nuneaton to Preston by 47722, where the steamer was attached, before heading to Carlisle via Horrocksford, Hellifield and Settle. Reports coming from the on board timing fraternity indicated 60800 was in fine form through Settle and also Ais Gill with plenty of power on the hook. Load was 13 = 489T. I arrived into Carlisle 'on the cushions' and 1Z39 arrived about 45 minutes later, on time. I secured the coaches in platform 3, detached the loco and support coach and awaited her return from turning via the Bog Junction and Currock Junction triangle...this took an eternity. So by the time I had coupled the support coach back to the rake, brake tested and completed my station work, our booked departure time of 15.34 had passed. The Station Master on duty informed us that the 15.47 Newcastle was going first (I can't fathom why that mattered to this day!) so we departed Carlisle 13 late...would driver Grierson and fireman Chipperfield make the time up? Our Carlisle footplatemen nursed Green Arrow up the initial 1:133 to Wreay, 32½ mph reached in 11 minutes, increasing to 41 by Southwaite crossovers. The loco working very hard now, keen to slip, Kitchen Hill took just 4mph off us, great effort. A signal stop outside Penrith was made, all for the signalman in Carlisle PSB to inform us that there was a 20 TSR into Eden Valley Loop where we stopped for 9 minutes, to let the 16.09 Euston and a Freightliner past. More slip and more steady work on the 7 mile 1:125 to Shap Summit had our train at 37mph by Shap proper and from then on, Driver Grierson made good use of the vacuum brakes on the descents through Oxenholme and on to Carnforth Loop, our steed getting a much needed drink. She had used all but 500 gallons of the 5000 in the tender. We were now 41 minutes late. Our water stop was pencilled in for 29 minutes, but when 1Z40 departed out through Crag Bank Junction on to the Up Main after 48, we were just shy of an hour down. Lancaster Bank was breached at 47½ mph after some slip on the curves out past Ripley School, and 60 by Scorton. Driver Grierson and fireman Chipperfield had put on a fine display and we quietly glided into Preston, where I uncoupled Green Arrow and her support coach and bade farewell to the relieving crew. She set off across Ribble Junction and on into the night, heading 'light' to York. Five minutes later, lovely Sulzer tones drifted out of the gloom and 47722 once again attached to the Mk1's to take 1Z40 back to Northampton, and onwards to 2000. A day I will never forget. 10A
Growing up, as I did, in the late 80s and 90s, a lot of the diesel haulage was disappearing, and it was one's duty to seek it out wherever it survived. 37s and 31s on the North Wales coast, and the boat train to Harwich, will live long in the memory. But less fashionable - yet no less fun in my opinion - were the cross country mark 2 sets hauled - when away from the West Coast Mainline - by an erstwhile fleet of 47s. While not holding the same appeal for some enthusiasts, I found the 47s on these relatively light 7-coach loads put up some spirited performances and so, by good fortune, did someone who did a much better job of keeping hold of his logs - Mr Brian Basterfield. Not only did he keep hold of them, he published them online, and they can be found here. A few of these logs are over routes re-created in TSW, so it would be wrong, in the spirit of this thread, not to put ourselves to the test. The first I've picked out is a Bristol-York service which was handily diverted via Lichfield. Handier still, it had a stop for a crew change at Lichfield Trent Valley - perfect for a re-creation on Cross City. Mr Basterfield describes it thus: "7th March 1999: A day out to York, where I remained for a total of 41 minutes. I chose the Sunday 9.52am Bristol to York service, knowing that it was subject to "diversions". In fact we went via Lichfield to Derby, then reversed, and headed back to Trent before continuing up to Sheffield, Doncaster and York. The running was excellent throughout and we were 3 early in to York." The full log can be found on the site via the above link, but I've transferred the times of the relevant Birmingham-Lichfield into a spreadsheet in order to enable comparisons with our own runs. I set up the run using free roam with no AI traffic. It would be possible to enter timetable mode on foot and add the train there, but you'd need to find and delete the previous two cross-city 323s to avoid catching them up (the real run was on a Sunday with fewer local services). 47654 was in charge of a 7 coach rake on a pleasant Spring morning, and awaited the 'off' amidst the gloom of New Street. We departed on time and made the usual slow start through the heavily restricted pointwork. We were brought down to a red at Proof House Junction, which cleared but indicated the 15mph crawl onto the Lichfield line. After that we were able to open up for the first time, with a brief burst of speed through Duddeston before once again restrictive signals loomed, and we braked for a red at Aston. The red cleared to allow us through Aston North Jn and around the curve and, once clear of Gravely Hill, we opened up again for the steep climb through Erdington, holding 60mph on the descent then braking for the curve at Sutton Coldfield. Once clear of the speed restriction we accelerated again, quickly back up to the 60mph line speed, and fast through Shenstone before braking for the PSR at Lichfield City. After that there were more signals heralding a crawl into Trent Valley, bringing the loco to a stand with the Drivers door smartly alongside my relief, stood at the platform end. In the below table the original 1999 run is shown in the first column - followed by its point-to-point times and average speeds - then my run is shown following that. As you can see I struggled to match the original run. Much of the time was lost in the slow first section to Aston. There are two possible ways to be routed onto the Lichfield line at Proof House Junction - over the flyover, or along the avoiding line to the left. I was routed along the avoiding line which is protected by an approach release from red, and has a 15mph PSR - slower than if you go over the flyover. I suspect the 1999 run went over the flyover. For comparison it may be worth forcing that route by placing a waypoint, as I suspect I lost some of the time here. None the less, the 1999 run was also faster through Aston (a change in line speed or signalling on approach to the junction perhaps, or did the Driver just make a more confident job of the approach release red than I did?) and then ran at higher speeds on the faster sections beyond. Again, I don't know whether the line speed in 1999 might have been higher than the current 60mph depicted in TSW, or whether the Driver just took a more 'flexible' approach to it. A further 30 seconds was lost on the slow, approach controlled run into Lichfield TV, giving a time 3m7s slower overall than 47847's 1999 run. I think, with a faster route through Proof House Junction and slightly more confidence with the various signal checks a minute or so of the difference could be made up, but I doubt it's possible to match 47847's effort without exceeding line speeds. None the less, if anyone else fancies giving it a go, I'd be interested to hear how you get on. This was an enjoyable run, and a different way to enjoy Cross City compared to the usual stopping 323s.
lcyrrjp, your post inspired a quick return to BCC, so I had a go as well. My run went much the same as yours, being routed along the same tracks (not using the flyover). I think I was a tad more aggressive running up to the signal checks than you, but I frequently overbaked in the latter parts of the run, one pretty much cancelling out the other. I'll start with some pictures since my table has an added surprise in it Spoiler: 47 Thrash Am I the only one who finds the similarities in the Inter City livery scheme in the UK and Germany quite interesting? 47459 pulls out of New Street - the diesel thrash echoing in the hall. 47459 flies down the hills. For ease of comparison, I mimicked your table, lcyrrjp... ...which also reveals my surprise. I couldn't help myself - a load of 7 seemed too perfect not to throw one of our girls at. So, yes, I had a go in a Jubilee as well. In the spirit of the first table in this thread comparing kettles and diesels, I just had to see how the old girls hold up against the 47. All in all, not too shabby, I reckon. I do have all of the driving techniques for the Jubilee run noted down as well, as per usual in our Steam - A Realistic Challenge Thread, but opted not to include it here. Still, the data is noted down so I can share it if desired. Spoiler: Surprise "Quick, get a picture!" Well, not quite Coming back to the prototype, our driver seems to have been quite quick - or the speed limits different - as suggested before. Lichfield City to Trent Valley seems particularly quick given the (TSW) speed restrictions. Aston also. As I said, I was already quite aggressive coming up to the signals and still don't match these times. Quite a fun short run. Thanks for digging it up, lcyrrjp.
Really interesting runs, Lamplight. It's impressive that the Jubilee only took 3 minutes longer than the 47. I suppose with the very low line speeds much of the run takes place at line speed anyway, so the difference in power output makes less difference. None the less, that was an impressive climb through Erdington by the Jubilee - I'd have expected it to lose more time there. I had also noticed the similarity between the BR and DB 'intercity' liveries. I wonder whether it's coincidence or whether one copied the other? I was planning to add your timings to my spreadsheet for comparison, but with hindsight, my layout of the timings wasn't the smartest - with 3 columns for each run the thing would be too wide to post anyway! The layout we used on the steam thread is better.
I was a bit proud of the Jubilee, too For the low-speed sections, the more direct control of a steam loco was actually an advantage - I could immediately get power and shut it off when needed whereas the 47 needed time to get the amps up and down respectively. The climb then favoured the diesel, of course, but the light load and somewhat frequent breaks in the climb allowed me to make good use of the pressure without fear of running her down. I will say, it is interesting to do the same run with steam and diesel traction just to experience these different advantages and disadvantages either traction brings. Since this is veering off-topic a bit, I'll add my thoughts in the spoiler below. Spoiler: Livery Discussion Based on what I could find, the BR take on this livery originates in APT-P of 1978 and was first applied to stock in 1983. Source Source For Germany, the livery dates back to the introduction of the Br 403 (not the new 403/ICE3 but a previous build) in 1973. This was the first InterCity EMU long before the ICEs. Source However, this was a one-off livery (only three train sets were ever built) and the colour scheme wouldn't return until the introduction of the ICE1 in 1991. (At least if we insist on it being a small red stripe, otherwise it returned in 1986 with IC coaches having a big red window band as seen in TSW's LFR). Source Later, this scheme was modified to only have one red stripe and was also applied to IC stock around 2000. In conclusion, make of it what you will Germany sort of had it first but the UK was first in actually introducing it large-scale. I didn't find any account of one being inspired by the other, but I doubt that either was unaware of what the other was doing. Just some interesting rail history. Funny anecdote: While looking into this, I noticed that the English Wikipedia page for the German IC-network claims that it was inspired by the success of the BR one while the German Wikipedia page doesn't mention BR. Agreed. This layout was a bit unwieldy and took quite some time to automate for me
Interesting point about the steam loco giving instant power. I hadn’t considered that, but the 47 really is quite awkward on those low speed routes with multiple line-speed changes - and the gradient changes near New Street are tricky too. More than once I found myself quite well below the line speed because we’d gone from a steep descending gradient to a steep climbing gradient and I was waiting an eternity for the amps to rise! Interesting about the liveries - thank you. That 47 with the black/yellow dividing line right through the middle of the head code box - it really shouldn’t work, but I can’t help liking it! I’m kind of glad you also found the automation of the spreadsheet tricky, because I had been wondering whether I was being stupid - it took me forever to work out how to get google sheets to calculate the average speed! I was dividing by 60 and eventually worked out (mainly by trial and error…) that I needed to divide by 24. Presumably because once you input a time it starts thinking in fractions of a 24-hour day? Frankly I’m still not quite sure what my formula is doing, but it gives the same answer as Mr Basterfield got, so I’ll consider that the stamp of approval!
You’re certainly not alone! I had the same issue. Couldn’t get the average speed to work until I found a solution on the internet. Some magic mathematics are happening under the hood and I just let them do their thing as long as they get me my result.
I had another shot at Birmingham New Street - Lichfield Trent Valley tonight, this time ensuring I got the route via the flyover at Proof House Junction. This can be done by putting in a waypoint, or by starting from New Street from a higher numbered platform (I used platform 8) which gives you the route via the flyover automatically. The results are...interesting. On a fine autumn morning we had 47621 in charge of the usual 7 mark 2s. Aware of the tight timing we made a determined start, accelerating hard as the line speed rose step by step. The route over the flyover avoids an approach control junction and gives significantly higher line speeds. As a result we touched 67mph near Duddeston before shutting off for the junction at Aston. Learning from the previous run I braked later (waiting until the single yellow was in sight) and harder approaching Aston, and saved a few more valuable seconds. 621 made short work of the climb through Erdington, and we held the 60mph line speed downgrade (or a touch over at times!) before braking for Sutton Coldfield. After that there was more good running through Shenstone before the rub of the brakes heralded the crawl through Lichfield City. Once clear of the 20mph there I was again more aggressive, getting up to 42mph before braking later for the approach control into Trent Valley. I honestly thought it was going to be impossible to match 847's 1999 real-life run without entirely disregarding line speeds. However, right from the off and the much faster run through Proof House I had a good feeling about this run. Knowing the size of the challenge I was aggressive throughout but complied with line speeds aside from getting up to a maximum of 64mph on the straight sections before and after Sutton Coldfield (the timings demonstrating that 847 did a similar thing). As you can see, arrival at Lichfield Trent Valley was at 11:56:33 - 11 seconds quicker than 847's 1999 run. I under-estimated just how much faster the run through Proof House is when using the flyover, and that additional speed continues to gain you time all the way to Aston, with a significantly higher maximum at Duddeston. By Aston I was almost two-and-a-half minutes ahead of my previous attempt. Aside from that, just being more aggressive, particularly at the approach control signals, gained me another minute or so and (let's be honest) a slightly more relaxed (but only by a couple of mph) interpretation of the 60mph line speed beyond Aston got me a few seconds as well. I can honestly say that, although I approached the two approach controlled reds more quickly than on my previous run, I was fully in control of the train and would comfortably have stopped had they not 'come off'. In fact, at Aston particularly, I could have approached more quickly still. It's a deceptively long way from the single yellow to the red at the end of Aston platform. I don't think you need to brake until you actually reach the single yellow, by which time you'd be doing 70mph (but then you'd need a full service application, so probably not great practice approaching a red!) This was a really satisfying run, achieving something I'd believed couldn't be done while still maintaining a realistic level of compliance. I'd recommend giving it a go with the route via the flyover at Proof House, and seeing how you get on.
Took me a long time to get this stuff documented, but I did try the alternate routing, lcyrrjp. Had two runs in a 47 and another one on a kettle (you know me): All I can say is, I don't know how you did it. My first run on 47621 was somewhat laid back but still approached signals sharply. On the second run with 47515 (pardon the typo in the table), I gave it all I got and approached signals sharper than I was comfortable with but I'm still 20 seconds behind what you got out of your 47621. Hats off. Leander gave it her best shot but the longer stretch of high speed running thanks to the flyover really favoured the diesel this time around. Still, only 1 minute added for a complete 4 minutes behind the diesel. Not too bad all things considered. Spoiler: ... and with some proper weather this time. It was a cold foggy morning when the locos pulled out of Birmingham New Street. 47515 leans into a curve. The climbs give her the opportunity for a good thrash, even if they don't truly challenge her. Having just chuffed through Aston, Leander tackles the heavy climb.
Love this, great idea, always read through the timings and speeds in the magazines for railtours, well done!
I had a go at Preston - Carlisle with a Class 40 to compare it to D268's 1961 effort. I gave it 12 mark 1s (loaded), as estimates of a mk1's weight seem to range from 33-36 tonnes on B4 bogies so that should roughly match the 414 tonnes empty/430 tonnes full of the 1961 run. Unfortunately DTG's class 40 massively out-performed D268's 1961 run. We attained 90 mph pretty easily on the gently undulating ground between Preston and Lancaster (D268 only got to 72mph) and went through Lancaster in 18m29s (compared to 20m19s for D268) so at that point I gave up, as comparisons were obviously not going to be useful. I think this just means DTG's 40 is significantly overpowered at the upper end of the speed range. As far as Garstang its performance wasn't too outlandish (it passed Barton 10 seconds ahead and Garstang 30 seconds ahead of D268) but in real life the power of a 40 tails off pretty significantly above 70mph, whereas DTG's 40 just kept on going up to 90mph. In real life 40s struggled to match the performance of the the most powerful steam locomotives (as the 1961 trials confirm - note D268 is 4.5 mins slower than 46241 Preston to Shap Summit) but I don't think any UK steam locomotive could match this performance from DTG's 40, with 12 coaches. If anyone thinks I got anything wrong in my calculations (maybe with the load?), please shout up - I'd be pleased to be proved wrong and to have another go.
I also had a go at Preston - Carlisle today. I used a railtour from 1967 as inspiration and slightly adapted some timings a bit to avoid a long pause at Carnforth. If anyone's interested in reading more about it, I described the run itself here and how I got on with it here in our Realistic Steam Challenge thread.
