London Commuter: Diversion Semaphores Bug?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by facundo.dim, Oct 8, 2021.

  1. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    Hello. I did a few runs in this route, and I'm not seeing the yellow lights flashing on previous semaphores before the diversion signal. Suddenly I have to reduce 30-40mph in a very short distance.
     
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  2. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    Interesting, some people have seen these yellow flashing signals in certain areas. But yes, it sounds as if approach control is missing at the junction you described, which is a shame.
    I believe in real life if the turnout speed is more than 10mph different to the current main line speed, approach control is required for safety puropses.
    This is something I would dearly like implemented, I think it only partially exists in TSW (I don't think there's any approach control from red). I would definitely prefer this over something like PIS, I guess a real life driver hardly looks at PIS. However, I think I'm in the minority going by the amount of folks who love PIS. Fair enough, we all like our bits of immersion.
    I asked a few times during the stream about approach control, but no response - too many other questions.
     
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  3. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely! Imagine driving a DB route without Zs3v signals. It's pretty much the same thing! If there's a point at which there could be more than one direction with different line speeds you must be warned in advance by the signals. TSW unbelievably, still isn't doing this in UK routes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
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  4. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    Flashing yellow lights before diversion signals works fine in the Great Western route but not in BML.
     
  5. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    I've not seen these in the Great Western route, I've a feeling you meant the South Eastern High Speed route which does have the flashing yellows.
    Anyway, it would be good to see if a member of the DTG team would comment on approach control and whether they tried to model it fully in BML? It looks as if it is in there, but not in all appropriate junctions? For example on the first stream, I believe Matt got diverted onto a slower turnout into Gatwick, yet there was no approach control. However, I've yet to explore much of the route, so I'm unable to comment in detail really.

    It seems as if the German routes have their signalling pretty much nailed, it would be good if the UK could follow suit. However, the signal placement, type and visual appeal looks spot on, so well done DTG.
     
  6. Ello_bobbie

    Ello_bobbie New Member

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    It also depends if the route actually has flashing yellows in real life, which are not that common. In the UK, the drivers rely on their knowledge of the route and where the speeds are, what speeds certain crossovers are etc.

    Without that knowledge, it’s difficult to drive (I turn the upcoming speeds on in the HUD which makes it playable)
     
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  7. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    Well yes, route knowledge is huge, but we are not mind readers. We need to know within braking distance whether the signaller has routed us to a slower turnout. Flashing yellows are very common these days, and those places without them - if there is a speed differential; the track circuits will hold the route indicator signal at red or yellow until the train is timed to be going at a speed suitable for the turnout.
     
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  8. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    The Brighton Main Line route in Train Simulator has the flashing yellows, so I assume there are those signals in real life. It's not like a straight line reduction speed, in a diversion trains could derail if don't go at correct speed.
     
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  9. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    Definitely, Bescot.

    If you are playing with the HUD I guess it's no biggy as you can plan for the speed reduction by looking at the next speed in the HUD.

    However, if you like to play without the HUD (as I do, once I've learnt the route to a degree), the incorrect signalling is a bit of an immersion breaker. It would nice to hear Matt or DTG's take on this? As I've said, I've yet to play the route properly yet, so there may be some kind of approach release there (folks have already said there are indeed some flashing yellows at some locations).

    If the approach from red isn't modelled, it would be better to at least have the flashing yellows as some kind of advance warning.
     
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  10. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    BML in TSW2 does have the flashing yellows. I've come across them a few times whilst playing on PS5 but can't remember exactly where and when I encountered them.
     
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  11. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    Just had flashing yellows into the platform at Redhill, on the SE diversions.
     
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  12. Ello_bobbie

    Ello_bobbie New Member

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    Yeah, the point I was trying to make is not every lower speed junction or crossover has flashing yellows. Down in the southern region, AFAIK (the BML area is off my patch slightly!) there are not a great deal of locations that have them, especially on the BML. The southern doesn’t have much flashing yellow, and can only think of 4-5 places that do. The speed difference is worked out in percentages, so it’s possible to get a free green over a lower speed set of points if the speed difference isn’t too high.

    Is it better to be prototypical, or things added that are not correct to make our lives easier?
     
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  13. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    That's fair enough, I agree.

    BML is off my patch too - I never signed anywhere further south than Coventry or Hereford lol but off the top of my head I'm thinking of some big drops in speed percentage, such as:-

    Down fast to down slow at Streatham. Linespeed 60mph, the crossover is 30. You don't see the #1 route indicator until 500yrds before it, everything is green so you cannot brake in time. There must be some form of approach control here IRL, but not in the game.

    (Down) reversible at South Croydon to the down slow. Linespeed is 50. The crossover is 20. Same problem. In fact here the HUD doesn't even warn of the 20.

    Similar junctions around my area would be held at red, or at the very least for the 50% drop, the previous signal held at yellow or flashers on these new installs.

    All myself and Fakenham are asking is why DTG model DB signalling so well, but fail with essential tech on their own turf.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
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  14. Stephen Crofts

    Stephen Crofts Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to learn how to go without the distance markers in the HUD, and drove through this 60 to 30 crossover today without knowing to brake!
    But I guess these routes might also cross from fast to slow lines at specific points that are memorable to the drivers no matter what service? A guess, but as a train sim enthusiast I'd have benefited from approach control :-/
     
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  15. Ello_bobbie

    Ello_bobbie New Member

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    Nah I agree with what you say. East coastway was exactly the same. Perhaps it would take too long collating the information and adding it, as it would involve climbing through tons of control tables.
     
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  16. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    It's a bit of a shame that we can't go in and edit the signals ourselves and update the appropriate signals to at least flashing yellows if approach from red hasn't been devised yet for this sim. But then we are getting into opening the can of worms which is the elusive editor.

    As I mentioned earlier, some some of approach control is better than nothing - it's a shame to be barreling in at 60 or whatever and then be suddenly confronted by a diverge at much less speed, as a few posters mentioned earlier. If this is how it is in real life, then fair enough, I'd want it exactly as it is in real life. However, I'm 99% sure it isn't!

    But this shouldn't detract from what I think is a great route with a lot of playability - it's just that having this would be part of the icing on the cake for me!
     
  17. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    I'm agree with all of you. This is the reason why i don't like uk routes. As a driver in italy i prefer the german signalling system that is similar to our, but i hate the uk approach. There are no rules about the approch at yellow and the speed to assume. Same with speed limits. No warnings. No signal in some place (exemple after Victoria when you need to go from 40 -> 45). Ok route knowledge yes but as i driver i can confirm that is impossible to know exactly every speed changes, expetially for the switching. Ok i can understand when you need to slow down from 90 to 80, you see the signal and apply the brakes but for huge changes? Ok the table on the side. Sometimes at 500yd, sometimes at 1 miles, sometimes at 300yard...... without a real logic. So i think that there is some in cab-system or the signaller inform you with a direct contact or the flashing yellow, and ok another question... which speed i need to assume when i see a flashing yellow? 20mph? 30mph? Boh.... as a driver i have no words. Ok you can learn the eastcostway that havwn't a lot of speed change, but the main line, with various interecation, switching, paths it's litteraly impossible. I'm good with the route but without the HUD it's hard to know the correct speed change. Also if someone some real information for speed with the double yellow or yellow, i will say thanks. Nornally i used to stay at 45mph with double yello and 30 with yellow. Ps. Sorry for my english
     
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  18. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    delucadomenico2009 I suppose as a driver like yourself, who's used to the speed based signalling used in most of Europe the UK route direction signals are just madness. UK drivers have to learn EVERY speed, and the location of every signal, as they are not 1km apart. Eg you'd have to know that a left hand route indicator will take you a route which might be 30mph, whereas the right hand might be 50mph. There's usually nothing to tell you this lineside so it's done from memory.

    There's no in cab signalling or contact with signaller to tell you where you are going.

    There's no set speed for braking at certain signals, as they're not a set distance apart - sometimes they'll be a mile or so, sometimes they'll be 600m or less. Rule of thumb, perhaps for BML would be begin to start braking at the double yellow, be under 50% of the linespeed at Yellow, and judge it from there. If the signals are close together like between Croydon and Victoria, don't go past a single yellow at more that around 35-40mph. IF there is no double yellow (3 aspect signals) and there begins with a single yellow, brake there, as the next signal will USUALLY be in your braking distance with around 60% brake.

    Oh.. Your English is perfect to me.
     
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  19. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    Just wondering if anyone has heard anything from DTG about this issue, in a stream etc? Would be nice to hear if they are aware of this and could implement it for future routes (if they can't add it into the current routes).

    I was watching a stream last night on YT (DadRail) where he was driving London to Reigate - he is a real life driver on the route and was concerned about the lack of approach control for various slower speed junctions (safety issue for speeding over junctions).
    Other than that, he was extremely impressed by the route!
     
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  20. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The only rule as regards UK signals and speeds is that the spacing of the signals must be sufficient for the train with worst braking to slow down adequately from line speed on sighting the first caution signal. TPWS does provide some speed protection but again this varies by location and is not, to my knowledge, in any publication available to drivers. The ATP fitted on GWR HST’s and now the Hitachi Knotweeds does provide for in cab speed advice and enforcement, but that is only in use for a small number of trains on a specific bit of railway.
    I do agree though after experiencing German or even US signalling in the various sims, where a reduction in speed is mandated at caution signals, how we get away with it in the UK.
    When driving in the sims as a rule I reduce to 50 MPH passing a double yellow and 30 MPH passing a single yellow.
     
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  21. WaveyDavey

    WaveyDavey Well-Known Member

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    I've seen flashing double yellows and flashing yellows when doing a Victoria to Reigate service.
     
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  22. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    Indeed, this kind of approach control is implemented in places (but I think missing in others, e.g approaching Gatwick pt 7 from the north (90 - 60 mph I think), but what we are saying is that approach control is not implemented for the slower speed junctions, eg 60 - 30/20 etc where the signal would be held at red until the speed of the train is reduced - then the signal can clear to an aspect other than red.

    Maybe it isn't implemted fully because the track speed sensors aren't modelled/ functioning in TSW? If not, maybe the signalling team could code in a release when passing over an AWS magnet? Easier said than done I suppose!
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  23. Oldcustard

    Oldcustard Member

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    I just blasted through this one at 60mph. It's really offputting as I try to drive as realistically as possible so I'm quite disappointed we still don't have this implemented in game. If DTG can explain if it's not possible or if it's something they're working towards, it would be great. It really is a critical part of UK routes
     
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  24. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Active Member

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    If I remember correctly, IRL approach release (where the signal remains at red until the train is detected to have reduced its speed sufficiently on approach) is required where the speed of the diverging route is less than 50% of line speed. Where the speed of the diverging route is greater than 50% of line speed, flashing aspects can be used.

    Looking at the junctions on BML at which neither system is present, it does look as if they’re generally the ones which would be fitted with approach release IRL - so it’s that system which is missing, rather than the flashing aspects (although as you note, there may also be locations where the flashing aspects are missing.

    I must say, these systems are absolutely fundamental to driving trains in the UK. You can’t drive realistically without them, and it feels odd that the route has been released with such a major omission.
     
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  25. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    Exactly, lcyrrj and oldcustard

    When driving without the HUD it's a real immersion breaker to be suddenly peeled off at high speed, for example ,a 20mph turnout!

    If there was one thing I'd want improved, it's accurate signalling - the signals themselves look fantastic, the signalling team have modelled all kind of variants, which is over and above what I'd expect - it's just a shame they are missing this very important aspect of signalling, approach control from red.

    We've yet to hear officially what DTG's plans are for implementing this functionality - hopefully they have heard our points and would introduce this for the next UK route - I've a feeling it would be difficult to implement it to existing routes as it may screw up the timetable aspect (or require a massive amount of extra work?)

    It would be nice to hear DTG's thoughts, they are keeping a bit quiet about this (which I guess is down to the sheer amount of work they are doing at the moment!)

    But again, the route is incredible, the best yet imo - this last aspect would be the icing on the cake for me.
     
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  26. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    I think we can deal with some bugs or a few features not implemented in the game but the signalling in all routes should be working properly.

    I remember when started to play TS and after some time, I researched and learnt the UK signalling system. It was a whole new different world. When I moved to TSW, the experienced changed again when I learnt the german signalling. I suppose I'll try the US at some point.
    I don't know other people, but I feel a unique sensation everytime I react correctly to a signal, lol.
     
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  27. Oldcustard

    Oldcustard Member

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    For sure, it's still by far one of the best routes in the game for me. Empty timetables and poor signalling are too are the two biggest (route-related) immersion killers for me. This route solved one of those beyond anything we expected. If only the other was too, but I do hope it can be patched or, at the very least, included in future routes.
     
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  28. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Just to clear a few bits up here.

    Check your calling schedule before setting off, and know where you're going to be routed over junctions, it will be quite clear from your stopping points.

    If the junction speed is significantly different on the UK network to the line speed, you'll be signalled down to the protecting signal and then it will clear to allow you across it safely.

    If the junction speed is the same as the mainline, you'll just get steady signals on approach with a route indicator.

    If the junction is 5-10mph slower than the line speed, route knowledge is expected to cover this, and flashing yellows will be given to indicate the diverging route is cleared and set for your train. (Only seen this on SEHS at one place on the route).

    A lot of what you see on UK routes with signalling is accurate from a drivers point of view, if you've read the route maps you are provided with when learning the route. Maybe DTG could provide their source map for signals that they've worked off, to give you an ideal of whats ahead of you.

    Just a little FYI for all the wannabe drivers on here, approach release doesn't exist on the UK network if you read the official drivers rulebook. It's a signallers only instruction. The reason it doesn't exist in a drivers mindset is due to safety. Drivers know it exist, but we have to pretend it doesn't. We would fail an exam if we told our traction inspector that a signal was approach release.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
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  29. Jasonic

    Jasonic Member

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    As Bryer said drivers are not allowed to know that some signals are approach controlled as they don’t want them presuming they are going to change up when approaching them, but of course they do exist.
    If DTG used driver training diagrams then they obviously would not show these approach release signals, but surely it would not be too difficult to find the right person who can get the info.
     
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  30. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    I take it you've not driven BML in this game lol - all of the junction approaches are green including 70mph > 25mph with no warning, and they're obviously not IRL and this is what we're bleating about.

    I'll get back in my box now, the game is a currently a mess. Random UE crashes, locked up AI, and sound dropouts so the devs have enough on their plate!
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
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  31. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    I think I know someone who works at Three Bridges now? Or just speak to the devs at Simsig - they have all the signaling tables.
     
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  32. fakenham

    fakenham Active Member

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    Makes sense Jasonic and Bryer, many thanks for your real life input.

    The signalling placement and models are excellent in TSW. It's just a bit offputting when driving without the HUD to get peeled off on a turnout with for example >30mph delta without any warning - in real life there would surely be some approach control.

    I would like to think that it wouldn't need a lot of work to figure out which signals need approach control - any junction with >10mph delta would be a candidate for approach control - even flashing yellows would help (instead of no approach control) for the release from red signal if DTG are unable to model release from red at the moment.
     
  33. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    I'm giving you real world input from a drivers point of view.

    Same old Bescot.....
     
  34. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    I know mate, we're beating the same drum, I've worked on the railway for 29 years - 23 of those in ops - it's just your post may have come across that the signals in BML are, well, normal when we know they're not :)
     
  35. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to source you guys some route maps of the BML which show signals etc, so you can figure out what you're up against. While BML signalling isn't correct fully, the principals of signalling are followed.

    Please find attached the 2018 track diagrams which show the signals. It only gives you the type 2 aspect, 3 aspect or 4 aspect signal head, but at least you'll be able to see whats what. THESE MAPS ARE NOT TO BE COUNTED ON IF DRIVING ON THE MAINLINE AND ARE ONLY TO BE USED FOR SIMULATOR WORK.

    For Line speeds you would need access to Table A diagrams from the Sectional Appendix.
     

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  36. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    Maps added to above post.
     
  37. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    This is gold, thank you!
     
  38. Jasonic

    Jasonic Member

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    Great maps but I would be a bit worried about the copyright, they are for Network Rail use only.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
  39. Bryer

    Bryer Well-Known Member

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    They are out dated, so therefore aren't the current version.
     

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